These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

Does ECM add good counter play?

Author
TharOkha
0asis Group
#21 - 2013-01-31 10:43:43 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
One possible solution would be that ECM would not be "perma on" module but it would work once per cycle. (destabilize targets targetting/sensors etc, but target could instantly re-lock you till next cycle of ECM). It would break locks, not perma-jamm.
TheBlueMonkey
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-01-31 10:45:01 UTC
Eve's a game about choices, you choose what skills to train, choose what space to fly in etc etc etc and ECM highlights this.

If you're repeatedly fighting the same group of people that they roll deep with the ECM then not fitting ECCM just makes you dumb. Also not fielding your own ECM and snipey ships makes you dumb.

If you're not fighting the same people all the time then it's your choice whether you fit for ECM or not.

Every fleet there's ever been that's been "over powered" has had a counter along the road.


Personally I think there needs to be something that stops ecm in solo ships, maybe just make ECM drones only usable by ECM boats or make them have a tiny chance to break a lock and just be lock breakers than actual jammers but ultimately I think we're just in yet another "rock's over powered, buff scissors" conversation.
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-01-31 10:45:08 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Ravnik wrote:
Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway..

Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose. P

Or someone drops a bubble and you cannot warp any longer. Let's change this, too.

What about weapons? Someone doing a bombing run on me in my frigate totally lacks counter play. This, too, needs a fix.

Why don't asteroids fight back when I mine them? They deserve counter play just like anyone else! Let's fix that, too. More rights to roids.

Do I now vote for Malcanis, yes?


Except that you know....the one who is in the bubble can still target and shoot at enemies.

Just saying.

There is quiiiiite the difference between a "slow" and a "perma-stun" effect. If you now have the capability to imagine such a thing that is.

And I really love it when people insist on comparing different mechanics that are completely unrelated to one another in their functionality and gameplay effects. Makes them look that much more stupid.
Ravnik
Infinate Horizon
#24 - 2013-01-31 10:48:25 UTC
hmm, i wonder if ECM might need a charge, same as cap boosters. That way you are limited to how much you can use it, and each charge size is a different strength ecm charge. you can carry loads of "50" size charges which are not as strong, or a few 800 size which are garanteed jams, but have to be used sparingly.

The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly..........

Whitehound
#25 - 2013-01-31 10:48:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Except that you know....the one who is in the bubble can still target and shoot at enemies.

And the one who is jammed can still fly away, or use drones, or auto-targeting missiles, or smartbombs, or ECM burst, or a target spectrum breaker, or out-tank the DPS, or lock faster and dampen the sensors, or fit ECCM, or ...

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

TheBlueMonkey
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-01-31 10:49:37 UTC
TharOkha wrote:
One possible solution would be that ECM would not be "perma on" module but it would work once per cycle. (destabilize targets targetting/sensors etc, but target could instantly re-lock you till next cycle of ECM)


Thats how I think ECM drones should work tbh.

The modules on the specific ships should be a "jammed untill cycle ends" then there's the %chance to jam again.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
The Initiative.
#27 - 2013-01-31 10:55:34 UTC
TharOkha wrote:
One possible solution would be that ECM would not be "perma on" module but it would work once per cycle. (destabilize targets targetting/sensors etc, but target could instantly re-lock you till next cycle of ECM). It would break locks, not perma-jamm.


Ever heard of a ECM Burst??

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP

Le Badass
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#28 - 2013-01-31 10:56:22 UTC
Great video, I've bookmarked it and will try out their other vids as soon as I have time. +1 for the link alone.
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-01-31 10:56:47 UTC
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
Eve's a game about choices, you choose what skills to train, choose what space to fly in etc etc etc and ECM highlights this.

If you're repeatedly fighting the same group of people that they roll deep with the ECM then not fitting ECCM just makes you dumb. Also not fielding your own ECM and snipey ships makes you dumb.

If you're not fighting the same people all the time then it's your choice whether you fit for ECM or not.

Every fleet there's ever been that's been "over powered" has had a counter along the road.


Personally I think there needs to be something that stops ecm in solo ships, maybe just make ECM drones only usable by ECM boats or make them have a tiny chance to break a lock and just be lock breakers than actual jammers but ultimately I think we're just in yet another "rock's over powered, buff scissors" conversation.


The thing that people actually argue about is the random and boolean nature of ECM. Counters or not, effects of it are still boiled down to a very static success or fail with quite the severe consequences as a result - and the severity being quite a lot harsher on the player on the receiving end. Not a single other e-warfare module functions like this.

Best part is that you can keep nerfing or boosting whichever side you want but you will never reach an ideal spot.

If ECM was changed to be an active effect with a wider range of results then there would not be any reason to complain about it anymore. I think that the actual effects of ECM are perfectly fine, just that it needs to be brought in line with all other e-warfare modules.

Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
#30 - 2013-01-31 11:02:24 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
[Except that you know....the one who is in the bubble can still target and shoot at enemies.

Just saying.
Except that, you know... people don't drop bubbles on you if they expect to lose.

This is the biggest problem with ECM. As long as people can lock, they're happy to go down in a ball of fire. Disregarding the fact that they had no chance of actually winning while being webbed, target painted and tracking disrupted while having the scan res of a Titan.


Whitehound
#31 - 2013-01-31 11:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
The thing that people actually argue about is the random and boolean nature of ECM. Counters or not, effects of it are still boiled down to a very static success or fail with quite the severe consequences as a result - and the severity being quite a lot harsher on the player on the receiving end. Not a single other e-warfare module functions like this.

MEEEEEEP, wrong.

Do warp scramblers and disruptors have a static effect?

Do webs and target painters count as e-war?

Does ECM drive you mad cause u no shootin?

What was the name of a mini cake produced by Nestle?

YES.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
The Initiative.
#32 - 2013-01-31 11:11:32 UTC
Last time.
ECM is balanced. You can counter it easily.
/thread

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP

Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#33 - 2013-01-31 11:15:44 UTC
Posting in a nerf ECM thread even after the ECM nerf. Some people are never happy it seems. ECM bothering you? Train your skills. As the owner of a falcon pilot I can confirm that it's harder to jam people now if they have the skill trained. Harder, not impossible. ECM is in the game, deal with it.
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#34 - 2013-01-31 11:22:41 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
The thing that people actually argue about is the random and boolean nature of ECM. Counters or not, effects of it are still boiled down to a very static success or fail with quite the severe consequences as a result - and the severity being quite a lot harsher on the player on the receiving end. Not a single other e-warfare module functions like this.

MEEEEEEP, wrong.

Do warp scramblers and disruptors have a static effect?

Do webs and target painters count as e-war?

Does ECM drive you mad cause u no shootin?

What was the name of a mini cake produced by Nestle?

YES.


Agreed.

Every E-warefare module out there has the potential to completetly change the results of a battle. Tracking Disruptors can render its target useless, Painters can make an otherwise impossible tank a soft target, webbers can prevent an otherwise fast target from getting away, smartbombs can render drones useless.. you name the module and I will show you a way to gain victory from it as well as counter it.

There is absolutly nothing wrong with ECM. In fact, I would say of the many ways E-warefare contributes to fights, ECM is often the most difficult and vulnerable of modules. Often fleets are designed to rely heavily on ECM's (I know a few of the fleets my crew forms are so).. a a couple of missed cycles can have catastrophic results.

ECM is often totted as an I win button, but this usually comes from frustrations of a recent loss. Besides, its not a module controlled by a single group of players, anyone can train it, anyone can put an ECM boat in their fleet and as such, its balance is that everyone has access to it.

More to the point, ECM is really not used all that often. I have been playing this game for 6-7 years and I can count on one hand the amount of times ECM's have been used successfully against me in a fight. Im suprised that people discuss the balance of this particular tactic when things like duel Basliks for example are far more commonly used tactics that make fights that shut down far more people in my experiance.

ECM I think is fine as it is, I mean its very effective and I certainly take advantage of it, but its hardly the I win button its made out to be, I have seen it fail plenty.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 

Chenlab Delta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-01-31 12:43:40 UTC
ECM needs a buff if anything...
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-01-31 12:51:19 UTC
It is comparitively short ranged.
ECM already has 2.5 counters.

The New [sensor-skill] Compensations.
Mid/Lowslot ECCM Modules.
SD outranges ECM.



Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#37 - 2013-01-31 13:08:49 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
It is comparitively short ranged.
ECM already has 2.5 counters.

The New [sensor-skill] Compensations.
Mid/Lowslot ECCM Modules.
SD outranges ECM.


ECM is bad not because it's "unbalanced" (it isn't) but because it's anti-fun. It should be replaced with an effect that's worth doing but isn't so polarised between "no effect at all" and "I guess I'll just sit here until it wears off". Cries to "nerf ECM" miss the point; nerfing it won't make it any more fun; ECM isn't unfun because it works x% of the time and does nothing y% of the time, it's unfun because it's not fun whether it works or not. So the cries of "nerf" won't be satisfied with any value for x greater than 0. Nerfing just leaves Caldari, supposedly the EW specialists, without any EW.

So get rid of the current horribad ECM mechanic entirely and replace it with something different. If it's not defensive, then there needs to either be a secondary EW as well, or else Caldari EW ships need a combat buff. (Possibly not the Rook, depending on the exact nature of the EW)

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-01-31 13:11:31 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
It is comparitively short ranged.
ECM already has 2.5 counters.

The New [sensor-skill] Compensations.
Mid/Lowslot ECCM Modules.
SD outranges ECM.


ECM is bad not because it's "unbalanced" (it isn't) but because it's anti-fun. It should be replaced with an effect that's worth doing but isn't so polarised between "no effect at all" and "I guess I'll just sit here until it wears off". Cries to "nerf ECM" miss the point; nerfing it won't make it any more fun; ECM isn't unfun because it works x% of the time and does nothing y% of the time, it's unfun because it's not fun whether it works or not. So the cries of "nerf" won't be satisfied with any value for x greater than 0. Nerfing just leaves Caldari, supposedly the EW specialists, without any EW.

So get rid of the current horribad ECM mechanic entirely and replace it with something different. If it's not defensive, then there needs to either be a secondary EW as well, or else Caldari EW ships need a combat buff. (Possibly not the Rook, depending on the exact nature of the EW)


explain how you would also replace warp scramblers/disrupters please.
as they work in exactly same way as ecm, if ecm needs to go solely from the way it works, then by your reasoning so do 'point mods' ..........
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2013-01-31 13:36:45 UTC
Why not make ecm have 2 separate effects
break all locks
and set targets down by one.

Each one has a separate chance of happening with scripts to strengthen one or the other.
I mean the lock breaker module shows that selective lock breaking is possible in game code.
This way ecm is brought in line with other ewar while not being made to move in on other mods territory.
By the same token it becomes a great anti logi weapon as you can prevent them from locking multiple targets at once.
Whitehound
#40 - 2013-01-31 13:45:14 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
ECM is bad not because it's "unbalanced" (it isn't) but because it's anti-fun.

The counter play to ECM is in the tears you cry. They make bad guys weep and go soft.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Previous page123Next page