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Intergalactic Summit

 
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On Marriage: Amarr and Minmatar (Seeking Guidance)

Author
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
#21 - 2013-01-30 11:55:50 UTC
If she is a true believer, why did not her previous owner release her. Instead choosing to transfer responcibility on to you?

If the holders intent was merely to allow you the chance to release her, which is a possibility. All is well, release her and deal with her as you would with any freeman of Amarr.

If the holder had any other reason to not releasing her, I would have to question your decision to do so this quickly.

Should the transfers intent to have been merely to allow you to release her, I see little harm in two commoners marrying. Should there be a need for you to teach her before she can be released. Admiral Blake's analogy would require some pondering.

My counsel, modest as it may be, is then:
1. Find out why she was transferred to you instead of being released.
2. If she was transferred to you with the intent you would be the one to do so, I suggest you take the previous owner at his word.
3. After releasing her, see that she has meaningful employment that is not directly dependant upon you and give her time to come accustomed to being freeman of Amarr and to being friends with you.
4. After she has become accustomed to being a freeman propose to her and act in accordance to commoner traditions.

If the previous holder did not release her for any other reason than to allow you to be the one to do so. Seek her a teacher instead of attempting to teach her or release her yourself, to avoid even the seeming of any impropriety.

Love, will wait. Even if her release or your wedding take a year or two longer for propriety.

Baron Crow
Wishing you reap the rewards of patience.
Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen, God keep us from falling prey to their weaknesses.
Ohrud Omel
Ministry of Internal Order
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2013-01-30 12:07:12 UTC
As you are a commoner, you are legally disallowed from owning slaves in the Amarr Empire. Instead, the Holder that placed her under your care has entered what is known as a Custodial Servitude Contract, allowing her to serve you while remaining legally her Holder's property. Legally you are not allowed to free this woman from her enslavement and slaves are forbidden from marriage.

If you wish to engage in a legal relationship with this woman, her owner would have to free her from slavery by going through all proper channels, including filing a Notice to Emancipate with the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Ministry of Assessment.

I am unable to comment on the moral, social, or ethical implications of your marriage to this woman.
Mitara Newelle
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#23 - 2013-01-30 14:57:49 UTC
Ohrud Omel wrote:
As you are a commoner, you are legally disallowed from owning slaves in the Amarr Empire. Instead, the Holder that placed her under your care has entered what is known as a Custodial Servitude Contract, allowing her to serve you while remaining legally her Holder's property. Legally you are not allowed to free this woman from her enslavement and slaves are forbidden from marriage.

If you wish to engage in a legal relationship with this woman, her owner would have to free her from slavery by going through all proper channels, including filing a Notice to Emancipate with the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Ministry of Assessment.

I am unable to comment on the moral, social, or ethical implications of your marriage to this woman.

Initiate Arcturus,

Everything you need to know was stated by Grand Inquisitor Omel. I highly suggest you follow his advice.

Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Astera Zandraki
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-01-30 15:02:25 UTC
Or.. you could take her away from all this.
Lyrah Okkus
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2013-01-30 15:32:00 UTC
Ohrud Omel wrote:
Legally you are not allowed to free this woman from her enslavement and slaves are forbidden from marriage. If you wish to engage in a legal relationship with this woman, her owner would have to free her from slavery by going through all proper channels..

This is completely correct. You cannot have a good marriage with someone who is not a freeperson. Before you can marry, you must find the two of you moved to an equal social standing. Either you need to find a way to have a Holder test her faith and find her ready to be elevated to citizenship, or you must move with her to some other place where neither of your social standings matter, and forever exile yourself. I am enough of a romantic to wish you well either way.
Flavius Arcturus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-01-30 19:40:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Flavius Arcturus
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Should a teacher enter into a relationship with a student?

Should a doctor enter into a relationship with a patient?

Should a farmer enter into a relationship with his livestock?


And that last analogy- that is why people hate you.

Arcturus, marry the girl, steal as much as you can from PIE and find your place somewhere in the cluster not inhabited by morons. I'd recommend either a CFC alliance or the Federation.



And this is why people hate you. My loyalties are to God and The Empire. I will Serve them until the time that God sees fit for me to die and be judged. Ms. Vea, Brother Blake has given me precisly what I requested: Council and guidance. As for you, I pity those who place something as meaningless as money above such things as duty and honor. Those values are intrinsic to every reclaimer, most of all those In PIE.

I am aware that my feelings for this woman, this slave, are nothing if not unorthodox. It is precisely that reason why I sought council from those not only in PIE such as Cardinal Graelyn, who has been gracious enough to give wise and informative advice, but theologians from across Pax Amarr.

"There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do not believe." - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10

Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#27 - 2013-01-30 19:44:12 UTC
Capsuleers, even Imperial Capsuleers, are able to behave in ways that would be Unacceptable to other members of Society.

While some will merely raise an Eyebrow at your behaviour, the fact that you are a Pilot mitigates this. The Attitude would be "Oh. Those Capsuleers."

If you were Not a capsuleer, then Society would frown Greatly, and there would be a Great Many Problems with the situation.

Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol.

It is Written.

Flavius Arcturus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2013-01-30 20:00:59 UTC
Mensha Khael Crow wrote:
If she is a true believer, why did not her previous owner release her. Instead choosing to transfer responcibility on to you?

If the holders intent was merely to allow you the chance to release her, which is a possibility. All is well, release her and deal with her as you would with any freeman of Amarr.

If the holder had any other reason to not releasing her, I would have to question your decision to do so this quickly.

Should the transfers intent to have been merely to allow you to release her, I see little harm in two commoners marrying. Should there be a need for you to teach her before she can be released. Admiral Blake's analogy would require some pondering.

My counsel, modest as it may be, is then:
1. Find out why she was transferred to you instead of being released.
2. If she was transferred to you with the intent you would be the one to do so, I suggest you take the previous owner at his word.
3. After releasing her, see that she has meaningful employment that is not directly dependant upon you and give her time to come accustomed to being freeman of Amarr and to being friends with you.
4. After she has become accustomed to being a freeman propose to her and act in accordance to commoner traditions.

If the previous holder did not release her for any other reason than to allow you to be the one to do so. Seek her a teacher instead of attempting to teach her or release her yourself, to avoid even the seeming of any impropriety.

Love, will wait. Even if her release or your wedding take a year or two longer for propriety.

Baron Crow
Wishing you reap the rewards of patience.



I have been in contact with the Holder who she was sent from. He has clarified a few items for me.

1. This was, as I had misunderstood, not a full transfer of property for reasons stated previously in this discussion.

2. This was to be, what he called, a trial period. This time will allow us both to see where time has taken us. Then after a period of time defined by me, will return her where she will then be liberated by the holder and given passage to me.

3. I have already scheduled classes and periods where she will be able to choose what avenue of employment she would desire.

4. This is my intention.




"There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do not believe." - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10

Jarik Suroken
Doomheim
#29 - 2013-01-30 20:06:33 UTC
Perhaps you should ignore social stigma and follow what you desire. I hear the Ammatar Mandate takes in outcasts of both the Empire and the Republic.
Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#30 - 2013-01-30 20:12:56 UTC
I suggest you employ the services of a few good lawyers. I'm no expert at all about Amarrian marriage law specifically, but my experience with law in general is that it's a complex thing which can usually be prodded into working in your favor, once skilled and creative minds are put to the task.

The Amarrian Empire is a vast entity with a long history and legal precedents stretching back thousands of years. I would be very surprised if a team of lawyers couldn't come up with several loopholes that would enable you to settle this issue to your satisfaction, in a perfectly legal way.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#31 - 2013-01-30 20:14:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Morwen Lagann
Synthia:

Even as a capsuleer, odds are those he knew (or knows) from his life prior to becoming a capsuleer would still frown on the decision. Being a capsuleer doesn't change that society will have its own opinions of our actions, and in many cases it will not actually boil down in such a simple manner as "Those Wacky Capsuleers". How he approaches the matter will have an impact on his relationships with others, for better or for worse.

If he cares for how his peers - both past, present and possibly future - view his actions and decisions, the least he can do is make an honest attempt to follow normal protocols for the situation. It may even provide the girl some benefit as well; if he did not truly see something in her, why would he go to such an effort to do things by the book and within the laws provided, let alone ask for assistance on how he might do so in a public forum?

To Flavius: It's better to try and fail, than to not try at all - that you would do so speaks a lot about your character, and I wish the both of you the best of luck in your attempt.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Kazzzi
Heathen Legion
#32 - 2013-01-30 20:15:47 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Should a teacher enter into a relationship with a student?


If she's hot, then, well... sure.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#33 - 2013-01-30 20:20:23 UTC
Being free is awesome.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#34 - 2013-01-30 20:28:29 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Being free is awesome.


I... disagree?
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
#35 - 2013-01-30 21:11:01 UTC
Why, Tiberious! For a moment there, you sounded as if you were of... two minds... about it.

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all night.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#36 - 2013-01-30 21:13:53 UTC
Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:
Why, Tiberious! For a moment there, you sounded as if you were of... two minds... about it.

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all night.


No, I'm just not sure how to respond to such a simple argument with no actual proofs.

I'm used to having to respond to walls of text with no actual proofs, so this threw me off a little.
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#37 - 2013-01-30 21:25:35 UTC
Remember everyone, it is your duty to fight the Sansha Menace. Now quickly, throw one-line arguments at him!

Beards on Gallente are silly.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#38 - 2013-01-30 21:28:47 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Remember everyone, it is your duty to fight the Sansha Menace. Now quickly, throw one-line arguments at him!

Beards on Gallente are silly.


I.. agree?

This is going to be difficult.
Flavius Arcturus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-01-30 21:50:06 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Being free is awesome.


I am free. Your own understanding "freedom" are colored by own subjective reality. I find my freedom in God and service to The Empire. You find value in material belongings in and of themselves, whereas I see them as a means to an end. Do I enjoy my Coercer? Do I find strength in the thrum of her engines and the steady hum of her capacitor batteries? The answer is yes, however they are nothing but a means for me to advance The Reclaiming, and in doing so, advance my understanding of God and realizing his plan for humanity.

Thus, on this matter, a material one (marriage) I sought council from theologians. In doing so, I maintain my faith and my place within God's plan. Societal pressures are of course a factor in the choices that I make, but my primary guide are The Scriptures. As I have found no passages in The Scripture forbidding my union, and have received guidance from Cardinal Graelyn supporting this from a theological perspective I will proceed accordingly. There are societal and legal guidelines that I must follow, and I will. Leaving The Empire and/or renouncing my faith are both beyond my scope of understanding, and will not occur.

"There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do not believe." - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#40 - 2013-01-30 21:53:58 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Being free is awesome.


None of us are free. Silas the Bloody Handed, Eagle-Bearer Seriphyn, Bond-breaker Gottii - we are all bound up in chains.

Markov chains, specifically.