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CCP... The Simple Solution to the NPC Corp Issue

Author
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#341 - 2013-01-30 05:58:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Ris Dnalor
Dave Stark wrote:
Vaal Erit wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
while it might work; why not put the effort in to giving player corps something to offer players instead of just making NPC corps terrible?


My corp gives me free ships, logistics to wherever I want to go, people to fly with and like 1% tax rate. Name me a NPC corp that does better than that.

Give new players a 3-6 month training time with NPC corps and then throw them into a FW corp. I have a hard time coming up with reasons why this would be bad. People can recycle characters and form 1 man corps to get around this. The change would point players towards more player interaction and competitive pvp as well as give players a sense of identity. Make it so you need at least 5 people to have a corp (like in other mmorpgs) and oh man now you have chaos.


just to prove a point, your corp has nothing to offer me. it's nice that your corp can offer you something, it really is, but i've never seen a corp that can offer me, as a miner, a single damn thing i can't already get myself. or something that doesn't come at a cost to myself.

also, not every one wants to be in FW. i have no interest in it and frankly i'd be rather irritated if i was forced in to a corp who's objective has nothing to do with anything i want to do.


I don't know how common it is, but I have been in some corps that are super-friendly to miners.

The one I'm thinking of had a tax rate of 10%.

They offered ship replacement for corp-op-related-losses.

tier 1 and 2 npc loot was generally donated to the corp hangers for poor players to use and was recycled if it accumulated, but anythign worth a crap was kept by the players. pvp kill loot was split among the folks that were in on the kill. If desired the corp would buy at jita prices, so all parties could get their "cut" of the spoils in isk without having to wait on the trip to jita.

But these things didn't generate enough minerals to fund the corp replacement program, so they bought minerals from corp members at 10% above Jita prices. Didn't matter if you mined them or if you wanted to put together the logistics to bring a freighter load in. ( this was before jump freighters were very common ) They used the tax revenue to offset the extra isk cost, and it kept the corporation with a strong & healthy industrial backbone that felt appreciated. Not only were they getting a decent price for their work, but they were saved traveling to a market hub to sell their wares.

I think many corporations miss the boat because they either don't have the time, or don't make the time to put things into place that allow folks to make money for the corp. Taxes are a beautiful example of how to fund such things, because they make it possible to let members do level 4 missions 24/7 and still make a reasonable contribution to the corporation. If those funds are then used so that a corporation can actually replace lost ships, pay a premium on grindy industrial stuff, and even throw a little isk towards the guy that's willing to sit and be a lookout to protect a mining op for several hours.

There's lots of ways to show appreciation, but the best way is by finding out what your members actually want to do, make it so they can do exactly that, but to the beneifit of the corp. and to the folks that want to tell everyone how to spend their eve time -- tell them to stuff it! The good leader will make the corp work for it's members, and then the members will be working for the corp whether they know it or not.

o/

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#342 - 2013-01-30 06:15:11 UTC
To be honest, Anyone who wants the feature of war declaring against an NPC corp I see nothing more than a 'greifer.'

For one simple stupid fact.

They are incapable of coming up with an idea on how to make players leave NPC corps further more no idea how to make their own corps attractive to join.

Here's some solutions to some of the issues.
Corps pay a fee similar to Recruiting Fee, and they can insert 1 guy into any npc corp chat channel they want. Whatever he does there is his business but his business none the less.

Best of all no ISD to ban you for trying to be helpful and recruiting at the same time.

Revamp war declarations again.

As for same account alts, as long as there is a main character on the account, your next character you generate will not start in one of the academies but in a faction war decced corp instead.

Create decay timers for people in NPC acadamy corps, if they stray to far out they transfer to the local npc corp so those hanging out in low sec for months on end without checking in will eventually be drafted into the militia.

The rest are just high sec issues are separate topic almost.

I am sure some of you people have enough neural mass to come up with more ideas that doesn't screw over a day 1 player that's drowning in the tutorial before you blow him up to bits and pissing all over him or the ultra casuals that have nearly absolutely no time to be a target on a daily basis. That's real healthy for inviting new players because just as you have a much of a right to play your game your way, so do I. A like minded person would go to great extremes to not pvp.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Wardecs Without Borders
#343 - 2013-01-30 06:19:24 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Floppy, what you are trying to do is called rationalization by psychologists. You are hoping that, if you say the right things, in the right ways, enough times, someone will believe that you don't have a problem after all.

Try harder. :)

What problem are you suggesting I have?

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Wardecs Without Borders
#344 - 2013-01-30 06:20:26 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Can you comprehend I would have a warchest and contingency plans to evade this sort of thing if i were deccable?


It's like you aren't even reading what I write.

If you have a plan to avoid combat while under a wardec, GOOD FOR YOU. That's a HUGE difference from being immune to wardecs.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#345 - 2013-01-30 06:22:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Nova Fox wrote:
To be honest, Anyone who wants the feature of war declaring against an NPC corp I see nothing more than a 'greifer.'

For one simple stupid fact.

They are incapable of coming up with an idea on how to make players leave NPC corps further more no idea how to make their own corps attractive to join.

Wait wait wait, are we trying to grief the npc corps or recruit them?
You seem to have constructed a schizoid strawman, it doesn't know what it wants.

I'm not for wardeccing NPC corps. Merely making them deccable on an individual basis as if part of a 1-man corp, effectively 'freelancers'.
A 'freelancer' based system would of course come with all the benefits of a 1-man corp, such as removing the 11% tax rate.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Wardecs Without Borders
#346 - 2013-01-30 06:25:28 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
For years I've seen people write on these forums how NPC corps are a "problem". And yet, I've not actually seen anyone explain how NPC corps are a "problem" without resorting to some lengthy description that ultimately culminates into reasons that are nothing more than rants and whines to enrich their own game play at the expense of others'.

So, please...explain to me...why NPC corps are a problem. Please exclude reasons that end up adding kills to your kill board, putting isk into your wallet or forcing people to the play the game the way you like to play it.


Read the thread. I've said it several times.

NPC corp members can participate in all of the player-affecting activities of the game: they can mine, affect market prices, participate in ganks, everything but set up a POS...yet they are immune to retaliatory wardecs.

It runs contrary to how CCP presents the world of Eve.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Wardecs Without Borders
#347 - 2013-01-30 06:32:58 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
You seem to have constructed a schizoid strawman

That's most of this thread, to be honest.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Diablo Ex
Nocturne Holdings
#348 - 2013-01-30 06:35:20 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
...snip,,,

NPC corp members can participate in all of the player-affecting activities of the game: they can mine, affect market prices, participate in ganks, everything but set up a POS...yet they are immune to retaliatory wardecs.

It runs contrary to how CCP presents the world of Eve.


Exactly...

Diablo Ex Machina - "I'm not here to fix your problem"

Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#349 - 2013-01-30 07:13:18 UTC
The existance of NPC corps serves one clear purpose and does it effectively to the deteriment of bitter vets, it offers safty to new players or players that have no desire to be part of certain elements of the game like war decs.

The moment you exposes NPC corp members to any form of disruption to this semi-safty, semi-anonymous state and create any sort of forced into the frey mechanics Eve players will abuse the living hell out of it. It will be used for a single and only purpose of griefing people. This is the reason this conversation is completetly pointless, CCP will never make this change.. ever.

Not saying I agree one way or the other, but having a conversation about an imaginary scenario which you know with 100% certaintity will never happen is counter productive.

I think the conversation should be about how to get players to willingly on their own accord to leave NPC corps and join the rest of the Eve community.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 

Hedion's oracle
Naari LLC
#350 - 2013-01-30 07:23:41 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
To be honest, Anyone who wants the feature of war declaring against an NPC corp I see nothing more than a 'greifer.'

For one simple stupid fact.

They are incapable of coming up with an idea on how to make players leave NPC corps further more no idea how to make their own corps attractive to join.

Here's some solutions to some of the issues.
Corps pay a fee similar to Recruiting Fee, and they can insert 1 guy into any npc corp chat channel they want. Whatever he does there is his business but his business none the less.

Best of all no ISD to ban you for trying to be helpful and recruiting at the same time.

Revamp war declarations again.

As for same account alts, as long as there is a main character on the account, your next character you generate will not start in one of the academies but in a faction war decced corp instead.

Create decay timers for people in NPC acadamy corps, if they stray to far out they transfer to the local npc corp so those hanging out in low sec for months on end without checking in will eventually be drafted into the militia.

The rest are just high sec issues are separate topic almost.

I am sure some of you people have enough neural mass to come up with more ideas that doesn't screw over a day 1 player that's drowning in the tutorial before you blow him up to bits and pissing all over him or the ultra casuals that have nearly absolutely no time to be a target on a daily basis. That's real healthy for inviting new players because just as you have a much of a right to play your game your way, so do I. A like minded person would go to great extremes to not pvp.


Lets not forget the ones complaining about risk and wardec free npc corps are the same ones that have blued up null to avoid risk. They should practice what they preach. Even when Dear Leader is able cut you a check from the corperate welfare moogoo fund their still afraid to fight and blue all of null. seriously, get your own house in order before critizing how empire runs.

Error: Working As intended

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#351 - 2013-01-30 07:55:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Quote:

Lets not forget the ones complaining about risk and wardec free npc corps are the same ones that have blued up null to avoid risk. They should practice what they preach. Even when Dear Leader is able cut you a check from the corperate welfare moogoo fund their still afraid to fight and blue all of null. seriously, get your own house in order before critizing how empire runs.
lol
INK has the least blues of any sov-holding entity in 0.0.
this is worse then the nova fox post claiming I'm trying to simultaneously both recruit and grief npc corp members, but better then the mr kidd post asking to explain why NPC corps are bad but forbade involving PvP, PvE or gameplay in the argument.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#352 - 2013-01-30 08:41:22 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Can you comprehend I would have a warchest and contingency plans to evade this sort of thing if i were deccable?


It's like you aren't even reading what I write.

If you have a plan to avoid combat while under a wardec, GOOD FOR YOU. That's a HUGE difference from being immune to wardecs.


well sorry but what you are writing is not relevant to my situation or my gamestyle.

you're going to achieve nothing all by wardeccing me is my point. it's just mildly tedious grief play for me. most people with NPC corp characters just want to bum around highsec in peace and are of not danger to you whatsoever and corps exploiting this situation can already be dealt with by suicide ganking.

you basically want to penalise everyone playing this game casually with not impact on your own playstyle how about the extra character cost for wardec being scrapped then? do you feel the fairness of an endless amount of unidentifiable solo alts deccing you is worth the price?

forums.  serious business.

Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#353 - 2013-01-30 08:49:31 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Can you comprehend I would have a warchest and contingency plans to evade this sort of thing if i were deccable?


It's like you aren't even reading what I write.

If you have a plan to avoid combat while under a wardec, GOOD FOR YOU. That's a HUGE difference from being immune to wardecs.


well sorry but what you are writing is not relevant to my situation or my gamestyle.

you're going to achieve nothing all by wardeccing me is my point. it's just mildly tedious grief play for me. most people with NPC corp characters just want to bum around highsec in peace and are of not danger to you whatsoever and corps exploiting this situation can already be dealt with by suicide ganking.

you basically want to penalise everyone playing this game casually with not impact on your own playstyle how about the extra character cost for wardec being scrapped then? do you feel the fairness of an endless amount of unidentifiable solo alts deccing you is worth the price?


I think you might want to re-read the message.

Mining in High Sec, Trading In High Sec, Manufacuring In High Sec, Researching In High Sec.. all of these are aggressive and competative actions. When you do them out of an NPC corps your competitors have no legitimate way to stop you. Hence they degress to finding loop holes in the mechanics. In addition 99% of all griefers in the game hide in NPC corps be they scammers, suicide gankers or any other form of mechanical circumvention which again leaves their victims with no recourse whatsoever.

When someone suicide ganks you... they are an anonymous soon to be deleted NPC corp member. The bounty system, the war dec system, Eve reputation .. all the thinks that make Eve have consequences for people are circumvented.

So there is a big problem with NPC corps, they are effectively a work around mechanics that exist to ensure that PvP in all its forms can exist.

That said.. I don't think its going to change and its mute to discuss it, but if you don't see the problem you don't understand what Eve is, which with your post is clear as day.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#354 - 2013-01-30 08:54:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Skeln Thargensen wrote:

you basically want to penalise everyone playing this game casually with not impact on your own playstyle

NPC corps don't have anything to do with casual play.
A truthful example of actual NPC corp use would be LHA Tarawa back on page 12 of this thread saying he spends about 40 hours a month grinding ISK to pay for his PLEX, and removing NPC corp wardec immunity could potentially harm that. A full work week spent every month grinding billions in highsec to pay for PLEX hardly sounds like 'casual play'. He gets points for honesty.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#355 - 2013-01-30 08:56:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Skeln Thargensen
Kryss Darkdust wrote:

I think you might want to re-read the message.

Mining in High Sec, Trading In High Sec, Manufacuring In High Sec, Researching In High Sec.. all of these are aggressive and competative actions. When you do them out of an NPC corps your competitors have no legitimate way to stop you. Hence they degress to finding loop holes in the mechanics. In addition 99% of all griefers in the game hide in NPC corps be they scammers, suicide gankers or any other form of mechanical circumvention which again leaves their victims with no recourse whatsoever.

When someone suicide ganks you... they are an anonymous soon to be deleted NPC corp member. The bounty system, the war dec system, Eve reputation .. all the thinks that make Eve have consequences for people are circumvented.

So there is a big problem with NPC corps, they are effectively a work around mechanics that exist to ensure that PvP in all its forms can exist.

That said.. I don't think its going to change and its mute to discuss it, but if you don't see the problem you don't understand what Eve is, which with your post is clear as day.


no because i understand that I can manufacture, research, move and sell my goods without undocking and so wardecs mean nothing. Onlyt noobs mine and thank god for that.

you are actually upset about additional character slots, recycling and multiple accounts not NPC corp characters. remove NPC corps and you'll still get ganked by anonymous characters soon to be biomassed.

forums.  serious business.

Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#356 - 2013-01-30 09:07:45 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:

you basically want to penalise everyone playing this game casually with not impact on your own playstyle

NPC corps don't have anything to do with casual play.
A truthful example of actual NPC corp use would be LHA Tarawa back on page 12 of this thread saying he spends about 40 hours a month grinding ISK to pay for his PLEX, and removing NPC corp wardec immunity could potentially harm that. A full work week spent every month grinding billions in highsec to pay for PLEX hardly sounds like 'casual play'. He gets points for honesty.


undock and fly tot he nearest ice belt, multiply the amount of NPC corp toons in retrievers you see by 50M. the figure you get explains why this is not going to stop AFK mining in highsec.

Which is another 'problem' that needs fixing apparently. Do your own damn mining then.

forums.  serious business.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#357 - 2013-01-30 09:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:

you basically want to penalise everyone playing this game casually with not impact on your own playstyle

NPC corps don't have anything to do with casual play.
A truthful example of actual NPC corp use would be LHA Tarawa back on page 12 of this thread saying he spends about 40 hours a month grinding ISK to pay for his PLEX, and removing NPC corp wardec immunity could potentially harm that. A full work week spent every month grinding billions in highsec to pay for PLEX hardly sounds like 'casual play'. He gets points for honesty.


undock and fly tot he nearest ice belt, multiply the amount of NPC corp toons in retrievers you see by 50M. the figure you get explains why this is not going to stop AFK mining in highsec

Guess you abandoned the 'NPC corps are for casuals' argument in the face of facts, so you come out with this non-sequitor :).
Unfortunately, this new road you've taken by claiming that cost will prevent harm from coming to AFK miners, making wardec reform futile, merely shows ignorance on your part of the vast sums of money doled out in events you may not have heard of called "Hulkageddon".
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#358 - 2013-01-30 09:38:47 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:

you basically want to penalise everyone playing this game casually with not impact on your own playstyle

NPC corps don't have anything to do with casual play.
A truthful example of actual NPC corp use would be LHA Tarawa back on page 12 of this thread saying he spends about 40 hours a month grinding ISK to pay for his PLEX, and removing NPC corp wardec immunity could potentially harm that. A full work week spent every month grinding billions in highsec to pay for PLEX hardly sounds like 'casual play'. He gets points for honesty.


undock and fly tot he nearest ice belt, multiply the amount of NPC corp toons in retrievers you see by 50M. the figure you get explains why this is not going to stop AFK mining in highsec

Guess you abandoned the 'NPC corps are for casuals' argument in the face of facts, so you come out with this non-sequitor :).
Unfortunately, this new road you've taken by claiming that cost will prevent harm from coming to AFK miners merely shows ignorance of the vast sums of money doled out in events you may not have heard of called "Hulkageddon".


so you're a hardcore gamer if your AFK mine? loooool

so here is your new argument, that ganking works so NPC corporations need to be wardeccable.

forums.  serious business.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#359 - 2013-01-30 09:53:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


undock and fly tot he nearest ice belt, multiply the amount of NPC corp toons in retrievers you see by 50M. the figure you get explains why this is not going to stop AFK mining in highsec

Guess you abandoned the 'NPC corps are for casuals' argument in the face of facts, so you come out with this non-sequitor :).
Unfortunately, this new road you've taken by claiming that cost will prevent harm from coming to AFK miners merely shows ignorance of the vast sums of money doled out in events you may not have heard of called "Hulkageddon".


so you're a hardcore gamer if your AFK mine? loooool

so here is your new argument, that ganking works so NPC corporations need to be wardeccable.

And now you abandoned the "a 50M wardec fee will ensure no AFK miner in an ice belt will be wardecced" argument in record time now that you were reminded that things like Hulkageddon happened.
Henri Kantar
Doomheim
#360 - 2013-01-30 11:00:34 UTC
Want to get more PVP? Want to fix high sec? Want player corps to be more competitive? get rid of War decs. But seriously there are more players in player run corps than NPC corps so why are you whining?