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Tier 3 BCs, balance and fitting discussion
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Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#41 - 2011-10-24 09:34:55 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
I'm just really, really hoping the Tornado won't have the grid to fit arties. Blobs of 1400mm battlecruisers? No thanks.


Same here, but since "variety" in eve means a lot of useless ships on the market and the same overused, yeah we can expect 1400mm alpha BC's vs Tachyions and Torp's bc's, while blaster ones will be ganking retrievers and hulks...

I might be surprised thou but atm, no hope, no confidence.


lol, pre-tears

I'm going to gank you with a tornado. Using 1400mm, and I'll get two cryings for one kill. The one I get when I do it and the one your giving everyone right now.

"They better not be able to fit the large guns! I can't handle that thought, I don't even need to see ship stats or bonuses!"

"What? CCP is making a new hull? Oh god it's all over. This is the end. I know how this starts, next thing you know no one will fly any other ships."

Lol
Shayla Sh'inlux
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2011-10-24 12:13:41 UTC
Well, aside from the crying, the possibility exists that these new BCs just make another ship/shipclass obsolete. I like the whole idea of specialized ships that require intensive training and from the (admittedly very limited) information we have now, it looks like it will be a BC-sized ship with BS DPS. Since such a ship will always have some mids and/or low it's fairly safe to assume you can fit E-war and/or a tank on them, making them basically a fast battleship with a BC-sized tank. That doesn't sound very specialized to me.

I've never been a huge fan of BCs as they basically obsoleted cruisers, and from a first look this smells like "hey Tier3 BCs might obsolete battleships too". Battleships are already an inferior choice to Tech 3 cruisers / HACs and the various BC hulls for pretty much everything you want to do and I don't think they need even less reason to get used.
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2011-10-24 12:53:24 UTC
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:
Well, aside from the crying, the possibility exists that these new BCs just make another ship/shipclass obsolete. I like the whole idea of specialized ships that require intensive training and from the (admittedly very limited) information we have now, it looks like it will be a BC-sized ship with BS DPS. Since such a ship will always have some mids and/or low it's fairly safe to assume you can fit E-war and/or a tank on them, making them basically a fast battleship with a BC-sized tank. That doesn't sound very specialized to me.

I've never been a huge fan of BCs as they basically obsoleted cruisers, and from a first look this smells like "hey Tier3 BCs might obsolete battleships too". Battleships are already an inferior choice to Tech 3 cruisers / HACs and the various BC hulls for pretty much everything you want to do and I don't think they need even less reason to get used.


yah, my feelings exactly.

I suspect they will make the BB even more useless.

CCP are back to their old strategy again - instead of working on the problms ingame, they distract the newer players with new ships irregardless of whether they are game breaking or not. And this pattern, seen many many times before, is exactly why people are not convinced by what CCP says.

But hay, its a new ship, hopefully its not too imba, and if it is, then we will all fly them (and their are T1) and stop flying all the other ships. . .

an then people can cry about the tier system and all the unused t1 ships out there and say they need a buff. . .not realizing that the reason they are useless is because they keep demanding new shinny ships. . . ironic.
Darrius Cain
Doomheim
#44 - 2011-10-24 15:48:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Darrius Cain
I would like to see the Caldari variant being a Railboat, and none of them having drone bays. Make them awesome DPS support vessels because they can fit BS sized guns with nice bonuses (boni? idk).

Only 3 turret hardpoints with a 15% damage bonus per Battlecruiser level and reduced PG and or Capacitor need per level
Cuircuir Moustache
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2011-10-24 16:14:00 UTC
Well well well...

Frigates :
Most T1 are useless
AFs need work and a 4th bonus
EAFs need work and balance

Destroyers
The whole class is meh

Cruisers
T1 are mostly unused
T2 are unbalanced and some are broken (eagle, deimos etc)

BCs
Works fine, except tier 1 obsoleted by tier 2

BSs
Less and less used with each new smaller hull


Yeah. This game definitively needs a new tier of the most-used ship class.
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#46 - 2011-10-24 17:40:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Aeril Malkyre
Alright, so I'm cross- posting from my original thread about the Tornado, since this post seems to be more specific to what I came up with as possible specs for her, based on the ideas in the dev blog.


The biggest drain from a large turret is powergrid. So a ship bonus is likely: 90% reduction in Large Projectile Turret module Powergrid usage. So following the Cyc to Cane progression, could expect a powergrid of somewhere around 1490. That would allow you to mount 8 800mm repeaters, with some skills, but not much else. Toss on a 10% Rate of Fire bonus, because Larges are slow as hell.

I would bet on an even slot layout, 8H/4M/4L, 8 turret/4 missile, to allow for armor or shield but not be greater than the other BC's (8/4/6, 8/5/4) at either. Adds to the glass cannon concept. Armor guys can aim for webbing and speed, shield guys can aim for tracking and damage. Might even bump the speed to 175 (from the 165 standard to the others), since the dev blog mentioned speed and distance tanking. A 4500 point even split on shield and armor would allow the pilot to go either way, but the 4 slots keeps it from out-tanking the Cyc or Cane.

Crunch all that out and it'd make one hell of a paper sniper.

Thoughts? (Instead of gripes about broader game issues, which this thread seems to have mostly devolved into.)
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#47 - 2011-10-24 17:45:10 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
I'm just really, really hoping the Tornado won't have the grid to fit arties. Blobs of 1400mm battlecruisers? No thanks.


Same here, but since "variety" in eve means a lot of useless ships on the market and the same overused, yeah we can expect 1400mm alpha BC's vs Tachyions and Torp's bc's, while blaster ones will be ganking retrievers and hulks...

I might be surprised thou but atm, no hope, no confidence.


lol, pre-tears

I'm going to gank you with a tornado. Using 1400mm, and I'll get two cryings for one kill. The one I get when I do it and the one your giving everyone right now.

"They better not be able to fit the large guns! I can't handle that thought, I don't even need to see ship stats or bonuses!"

"What? CCP is making a new hull? Oh god it's all over. This is the end. I know how this starts, next thing you know no one will fly any other ships."

Lol


No you will not, because the bastard behind you already kicking your butt in his Angel ship is me.

You see how interested I am in balance stuff and most important, your silly opinion.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#48 - 2011-10-24 18:12:33 UTC
Quote:
lol, pre-tears

I'm going to gank you with a tornado. Using 1400mm, and I'll get two cryings for one kill. The one I get when I do it and the one your giving everyone right now.

"They better not be able to fit the large guns! I can't handle that thought, I don't even need to see ship stats or bonuses!"

"What? CCP is making a new hull? Oh god it's all over. This is the end. I know how this starts, next thing you know no one will fly any other ships."

Lol


Wow. It's really not that often that someone makes such a big show of being a complete idiot.

If anyone with a brain here can think of a reason why a blob of 1400mm arty toting Tornados will be good for the game, I'm happy to hear it.
Dbars Grinding
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2011-10-24 18:30:07 UTC
this is why they should have made them new battleships. It would have made a lot more sense. I forsee them being super squishy.

I have more space likes than you. 
Anikan Fernardo
Shedload of Zeds
#50 - 2011-10-24 19:27:03 UTC
The people saying T3 BC's will be suicide gank ships are delusional. They will likely cost as much as if not more than Strategic Cruisers. I don't see all these " glass cannon 1400mm Tornado gangs " coming to fruition when the cost will probably be more than a Mach or Vindi hull for a decently fit one.
Aamrr
#51 - 2011-10-24 19:34:15 UTC
Anikan Fernardo wrote:
The people saying T3 BC's will be suicide gank ships are delusional. They will likely cost as much as if not more than Strategic Cruisers. I don't see all these " glass cannon 1400mm Tornado gangs " coming to fruition when the cost will probably be more than a Mach or Vindi hull for a decently fit one.


Quoting someone who doesn't understand the difference between "Tech" and "Tier."
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#52 - 2011-10-24 19:35:07 UTC
Anikan Fernardo wrote:
The people saying T3 BC's will be suicide gank ships are delusional. They will likely cost as much as if not more than Strategic Cruisers. I don't see all these " glass cannon 1400mm Tornado gangs " coming to fruition when the cost will probably be more than a Mach or Vindi hull for a decently fit one.



Hey, flash news!!

Tier 3 is not Tech 3

again flash news for you:

-less tank than regular bc
-BS sized guns


More expensive than T3's or faction BS's???


MwahahaLol
Brynhilda
Chimp Hoons Export and Expo Service
Scary Wormhole People
#53 - 2011-10-24 20:43:43 UTC
I hope that this doesn't further cause for Minmatar's superiority...

You always see Hurricanes in gangs since they're cheap effective DPS boats that are agile. Drakes are also common because they have massive tanks and are common PVE ships.

How may I drug you with drugs?
De BuG2
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#54 - 2011-10-25 09:15:00 UTC
Personally, i would take the Tier 1 Cyclone over the Tier 2 Hurricane any day.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2011-10-25 10:19:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
I'm expecting a good highslot rack with 6-7 hardpoints (any less and they'll barely outdamage the existing tier 2s) minimal buffering options (so not many mids or lows), minimal or no dronebay, and both bonuses to the large guns.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Oxeu
Perkone
Caldari State
#56 - 2011-10-25 10:37:03 UTC
TO me the whole notice of large guns on a bc hull makes me shake my head, what use will that serve, any cruiser will speed tank those guns and just laugh at the whole thing, same reason why BS are used so little the smaller hulls are just so trouble some to be hit so you need dedicated tackle which cost more tends not always to be the most solid ship on the field making a fleet of plain BC far more cost effective for any small gang.

Anyhow that is my thoughts now, the real impact we can only find out when we can fly them and test them till than you will be able to get as much facts from here as from asking any person to point in the direction where Atlantis is supposed to be, neither of these with get you anything of use.
Imaginary Girlfriend
Exploit Inc.
#57 - 2011-10-25 13:17:38 UTC
Why when large guns are discused everyone assumes it means the largest, nuetrons, megas, 1400's ect. What if the stealth bomber type bonus given to the ships only allow for the double crusier sized weapons, in theory you would turn your 6 large highs slots into 12 med high slots. Maybe CCP is looking at making a BC Killer rather that a BS replacement.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#58 - 2011-10-25 21:58:41 UTC
Imaginary Girlfriend wrote:
Maybe CCP is looking at making a BC Killer rather that a BS replacement.


Because Vagas Cynabals Zealots can do the job unless you're talking about Drake trains Lol
Cillet Baang Scott
Allowance Pester Dread
#59 - 2011-10-25 22:31:23 UTC
[Gallente Tier 3 BC]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

50m3 drone bay

a +5% damage/level... u get 712dps + watever hammers do.

I sense failure
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#60 - 2011-10-25 22:38:52 UTC
Cillet Baang Scott wrote:
[Gallente Tier 3 BC]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

50m3 drone bay

a +5% damage/level... u get 712dps + watever hammers do.

I sense failure


Being stuck with such short range is the biggest fail in the first place.
The fit and slots layout let's wait and see but if I should give some note on your ship has it stand right now: 1/10 for everything else than gank where that note would rise up to 7, Arty and beam/tach's would pick 10/10

Let's wait for the official announcement. Let's wait to see how big the fail can be.