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Fix T2 scrams and webs (and all sucky T2 modules)
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Luc Chastot
#1 - 2013-01-28 21:55:03 UTC
There are still quite a few modules whose T2 versions are worse than the meta 4, two of these are warp scramblers and stasis webifiers. They don't need to be more effective, but there must be a reason to fit them.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Gunship
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-01-28 21:58:48 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#3 - 2013-01-28 22:15:15 UTC
Gunship wrote:
Add ECM's to the list


Most EWAR modules fit this design paradigm...
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#4 - 2013-01-28 22:21:53 UTC
The market has solved the issue with most modules. Taking scrams and webs specifically; the meta 4 versions are just as powerful but have less requirements. because of this they are in high demand and the means by which they are obtained makes them rare, so they cost more than T2 variants as well as being better. pretty balanced really.

its not perfect tho; for some reason ppl buy T2 ECM and adaptive plating for more than their meta 4 variants. but thats not a lack of balance or proper scaling, its more likely just stupid ppl.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Luc Chastot
#5 - 2013-01-28 22:30:19 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The market has solved the issue with most modules. Taking scrams and webs specifically; the meta 4 versions are just as powerful but have less requirements. because of this they are in high demand and the means by which they are obtained makes them rare, so they cost more than T2 variants as well as being better. pretty balanced really.

its not perfect tho; for some reason ppl buy T2 ECM and adaptive plating for more than their meta 4 variants. but thats not a lack of balance or proper scaling, its more likely just stupid ppl.


Honestly, the price difference is so small, that this is hardly an argument.

http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=448

http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=5443

Anyways, even if the price difference was larger, CCP should never rely on ISK as the sole balancing factor, especially when the price comes from market behaviour.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-01-28 22:39:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Freighdee Katt
Luc Chastot wrote:
They don't need to be more effective

If their fitting needs are higher they do. And if there are T2 mods out there that have lower fitting reqs than high meta . . . well I can't think of any at the moment. High meta modules are supposed to be moar power with lower fitting reqs, such that performance is good and they might just make that tight fit work. T2 are supposed to be better, full stop.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#7 - 2013-01-29 02:18:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The market has solved the issue with most modules. Taking scrams and webs specifically; the meta 4 versions are just as powerful but have less requirements. because of this they are in high demand and the means by which they are obtained makes them rare, so they cost more than T2 variants as well as being better. pretty balanced really.

its not perfect tho; for some reason ppl buy T2 ECM and adaptive plating for more than their meta 4 variants. but thats not a lack of balance or proper scaling, its more likely just stupid ppl.



this basically.


In 0.0 I looked at it as "free" ship fitting personally. 1600 RT, best named ecm fittings....since a jam scorpion is destined to die anyway eventually it was cheaper pvp courtesy of ratting/pve.

I also like the named gear setup....unlike most other games where there is the idiot proof level 1,2,3,4,5 item setup for uberness with the way it is now taking the few minutes to run the ingame compare tool or jsut break out all the item info windows in eft favors those who find those easter eggs as it were.

Also creates some variety in fitting. Some like one named gear point, others another. It forces you to think about the fits you see. Oh he thought he doesn't need some sub stat A as much and went for substat B. If this was ever changed it be vaniila fits all round. yawn...t2 guns, t2 point, t2 blah blah. Basically you'd know like like 75% of every fit in eve not even seeing the damn fit.

Sadly the market controlling this should have worked but its not 100%. You get the idiots who wreck this for fast isk. Or some markets jsut not high demand so it can be a buyers market. T2 ECM would not be a big seller (along the lines of say 200mm AC guns sales for sales comparison) imo even if no high meta options. So these drops go for cheap. Not saying I want this changed however....my ecm fits doubled as idiot detectors

Lol..what is with the fail non t2 fit?

One little sentence and right away you knew you might be dealing with an idiot. The idiot part being not even looking up the items in game/eft to maybe see if I had a good reason to run them. Or they could jsut ask before puting the fail stamp on it. If only other areas of eve could make this detection easier lol.
Luc Chastot
#8 - 2013-01-29 07:31:47 UTC
In hopes a certain dev sees this, I'm commenting this thread and encourage other people to add to the discussion.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#9 - 2013-01-29 07:35:40 UTC
If a T2 fits a T2 is the better choice


meta 4 is expensive.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Naomi Anthar
#10 - 2013-01-29 08:57:48 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The market has solved the issue with most modules. Taking scrams and webs specifically; the meta 4 versions are just as powerful but have less requirements. because of this they are in high demand and the means by which they are obtained makes them rare, so they cost more than T2 variants as well as being better. pretty balanced really.

its not perfect tho; for some reason ppl buy T2 ECM and adaptive plating for more than their meta 4 variants. but thats not a lack of balance or proper scaling, its more likely just stupid ppl.

Yeah i always lol when i see some fit with T2 adaptive nano plating or meta 4 energized membrane ;). Yup meta 4 ANP > meta 4 energized membrane too(not just resists, it eats 0 cpu too).

And as for topic ... i don't see this that way. Faction/Deadspace/Officer modules should be better. T2's should be better than meta 0-3 but not sure why better than meta 4. We should have source of good modules that drop from npcs too.
Actually i'm big fan of non T2 modules. As they add much more options to fitting. It would be dull and boring if every single ship would be full T2 braindead build. Fitting is also skill of player and meta modules are big part of this fun.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#11 - 2013-01-29 11:14:39 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:


meta 4 is expensive.


This used to be the case, and with some modules still is. However there are numerous meta 4 modules that cost way less]

Quote:

If a T2 fits a T2 is the better choice


If meta 4 and T2 have same stats, meta 4 is always better choice. Meta 4 can be overheated for longer, making it vastly superior in my use. So I think the system is seriously broken, when:

- meta 4 is easier to fit
- meta 4 gives same effects
- overheats for longer
- is not player made
- is cheaper

So how to solve this? Remove all meta-4 items from hisec rat drops completely.



.
JD No7
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#12 - 2013-01-29 11:43:37 UTC
Double T2 overheat capacity :-)
Luc Chastot
#13 - 2013-01-29 18:55:33 UTC
Roime wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:


meta 4 is expensive.


This used to be the case, and with some modules still is. However there are numerous meta 4 modules that cost way less]

Quote:

If a T2 fits a T2 is the better choice


If meta 4 and T2 have same stats, meta 4 is always better choice. Meta 4 can be overheated for longer, making it vastly superior in my use. So I think the system is seriously broken, when:

- meta 4 is easier to fit
- meta 4 gives same effects
- overheats for longer
- is not player made
- is cheaper

So how to solve this? Remove all meta-4 items from hisec rat drops completely.





I don't know if that would work, honestly. The benefits of using meta 4 are not that large to justify making them available only in low/null, in my opinion. I hope that when module tiericide comes, if it ever will, meta 1-4 modules are given a specialty, instead of just being progressively better overall.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#14 - 2013-01-29 19:06:10 UTC
Luc Chastot wrote:


Honestly, the price difference is so small, that this is hardly an argument.

http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=448

http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=5443

Anyways, even if the price difference was larger, CCP should never rely on ISK as the sole balancing factor, especially when the price comes from market behaviour.


i would say it is precisely the market that balances it. if meta 4's are so much better, why aren't their prices so much higher?

the lack of price difference may be that the extra fitting requirements and cap cost are rarely an issue for most players. therefore it must still be balanced.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Luc Chastot
#15 - 2013-01-29 19:17:30 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
the lack of price difference may be that the extra fitting requirements and cap cost are rarely an issue for most players. therefore it must still be balanced.


Not necessarily; not to be rude (I really want to keep the conversation civil) but logic is failing you a bit. There could be many reasons for the current situation, one of them being that meta 4 modules are dropped en masse by npc rats, meaning that supply greatly surpasses demand. We can't really know without hard data, and that's what CCP has. In the end, I think it's a combination of grea supply of meta 4s and little demand of T2.

In any way, though, I think meta 4s should all follow the same design, so they either should all be better than meta 5s (T2) or they should be worse.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#16 - 2013-01-29 19:57:18 UTC
Luc Chastot wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
the lack of price difference may be that the extra fitting requirements and cap cost are rarely an issue for most players. therefore it must still be balanced.


Not necessarily; not to be rude (I really want to keep the conversation civil) but logic is failing you a bit. There could be many reasons for the current situation, one of them being that meta 4 modules are dropped en masse by npc rats, meaning that supply greatly surpasses demand. We can't really know without hard data, and that's what CCP has. In the end, I think it's a combination of grea supply of meta 4s and little demand of T2.

In any way, though, I think meta 4s should all follow the same design, so they either should all be better than meta 5s (T2) or they should be worse.


i agree there are more meta 4 modules than their used to be, and that their fall in prices is down to that. but they are still far rarer than T2 items.

nowadays that little bit extra CPU is only worth 500k isk. and that is still balanced

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs