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[Updated] How to repopulate nullsec - a question for highsec/WH players (and CCP)

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Avila Cracko
#421 - 2011-10-24 08:30:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Avila Cracko
Blobs are here because large power blocks, and large power blocks are here because 0.0 space is large compact space where all systems are too even distributed and connected well together... 0.0 should be not that known space to us where wars are common thing and all its connection grid and infrastructure cant be that well organised and connected... so... what do you think about that some space-gates (making tree like 0.0 structure) are removed to make that you need to travel more (to junction of that branch where you are and then to next branch) making that you must travel throught not your own space
and/or,
maybe better,
space-gates can malfunction and there is some time needed for their repair? that way some parts of 0.0 space could get disconnected from the rest and only way to get in and out are jump-drives...

1) That would maybe help to limit one alliance to control to large space...
2) Black Ops BSs could get new function... they can jump to systems where no sub-cap cant in this moment...
3) it would make 0.0 more dynamic space...

just one idea...



And about drone regions...yes please... remove mineral drops...



And i am all for increasing sov cost with quantity of space you own...

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#422 - 2011-10-24 09:05:19 UTC
Russell Casey wrote:
There's actually some good articles out there on how to live in someone else's backyard, even moon mining under their noses----but I'm too lazy to link them. Basically, just go out there with some stealth bombers/recons. After a while they'll just assume you're "those goddamn AFK cloakers ruining my 0.0" and leave you alone.

but at the day you set up your POS there they will come and kill you.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#423 - 2011-10-24 09:18:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyla Skin
Adelphie wrote:


So my question to non-null sec players - What keeps you out of null, and what features would you like to see which might entice you to venture out here?


Anomaly nerf. Have CCP retract it. Rebalance moon goo to remove the bottlenecks that cause inflated prices.


Quote:

Some of the counters suggested

- Making moon mining arrays raidable (which would be great imo)
this sounds like an awesome idea, at least if timezones are not taken into consideration..

Quote:

- Making the cost of sov inversely proportional

Also sounds good. However, likely wouldn't change much however. You dont have to hold sov to practically control space.

Those were my personal opinions since the topic post was directed at everyone.

I also agree with removing the ratting statistics. People should scout if they need intel.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Avila Cracko
#424 - 2011-10-24 11:03:31 UTC
Elanor Vega wrote:
Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:
maybe higher prices of ships (minerals) would make that ppl use cheaper ships too... ships that are more or less forgotten today...



true, there is too much unused ships in eve.
ppl rushing to the best ships and some ships are forgotten after first and last usage (if any).



There is something in that...

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Severian Carnifex
#425 - 2011-10-24 12:22:03 UTC
Avila Cracko wrote:
Blobs are here because large power blocks, and large power blocks are here because 0.0 space is large compact space where all systems are too even distributed and connected well together... 0.0 should be not that known space to us where wars are common thing and all its connection grid and infrastructure cant be that well organised and connected... so... what do you think about that some space-gates (making tree like 0.0 structure) are removed to make that you need to travel more (to junction of that branch where you are and then to next branch) making that you must travel throught not your own space
and/or,
maybe better,
space-gates can malfunction and there is some time needed for their repair? that way some parts of 0.0 space could get disconnected from the rest and only way to get in and out are jump-drives...

1) That would maybe help to limit one alliance to control to large space...
2) Black Ops BSs could get new function... they can jump to systems where no sub-cap cant in this moment...
3) it would make 0.0 more dynamic space...

just one idea...



And about drone regions...yes please... remove mineral drops...



And i am all for increasing sov cost with quantity of space you own...



not bad... i would like to hear what other ppl think about it...
Adelphie
The Lone Wolves.
#426 - 2011-10-24 19:31:38 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
KaarBaak wrote:
Not to be flip or anything but my answer would be: "nothing."

My game is in high sec. I've been playing for three years and have had short ventures into null and low, but I found myself choosing to not play when I had time while living in those areas. I don't care for CTAs, abrasive FCs, rules about when I can and cannot do non-corp/alliance activities. I don't care for politics and peoples' hurt feelings causing me to PvP. I don't care for mandatory operations and rules about who I can and cannot sell my stuff to or buy from.

I'm comfortable in high sec. I like highsec Eve. I may try out some WH stuff, but highsec is just what I prefer. The changes that would lead me to consider null/low would break those areas for the players that like it.

I'm happy with Eve. I'm not trying to force people into high sec. Why do nullsec people feel the need to force/encourage people to play their game? If it's just a matter of too much space and/or not enough players, suggest CCP shutdown 25% of nullsec and stir things up. But I'll just move on to a different game before I'll move back out to null. That's meant in a "meh...it's just a game" kinda way...not trying to be confrontational or anything (hence my non-null personality Big smile )


quoting by far and away the most liked answer in the thread so you can add something to the OP about it, in case you forget or accidently ignore it.


Fair point. I've not put it on to date, as it doesn't put forward any new suggestions, but I'll add something to keep you happy Blink
Avila Cracko
#427 - 2011-10-25 09:19:23 UTC
gen we get some more CCP responce here?

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#428 - 2011-10-25 10:12:35 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Edit: I also suspect there is a lack of organisation. Surely they have fleets with PVPers and ratters, who could warp to the rescue quickly? Systems don't have hundreds of ways in and why not bait those cloakers out, have some people just a gate away.

you forgot we speak about game here.... What?

almost noone will spend their time like in RL job to protect you... We play for fun. this means:
1. Noone will stay for hours on gates or in belt just to make you mining safer
2. People will try to rescue you if you are attacked
3. You can die before anyone even will notice you were attacked Lol

Problem is: mining barge dies very fast.... Let's say i have no chance to rescue it if i need to come from system 2 jumps away. Only i can to try is to engage attackers AFTER they killed you. But why should i spend my time to every neutral? I'd better spend this time chatting with people instead of jumping around and trying to catch somebody.....

People usually think: if i come to 0.0 everybody and their dog will come in supercarrier with blob of subcapitals to kill me. Lol
Truth is: noone will care about you unless you will make a real damage to people there. When we see incoming neutral most of a people just dock and go afk for some time. Carebears Lol You can die faster got caught by roamers from other alliances Lol

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#429 - 2011-10-25 10:46:54 UTC  |  Edited by: betoli
March rabbit wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Edit: I also suspect there is a lack of organisation. Surely they have fleets with PVPers and ratters, who could warp to the rescue quickly? Systems don't have hundreds of ways in and why not bait those cloakers out, have some people just a gate away.

you forgot we speak about game here.... What?

almost noone will spend their time like in RL job to protect you... We play for fun. this means:
1. Noone will stay for hours on gates or in belt just to make you mining safer
2. People will try to rescue you if you are attacked
3. You can die before anyone even will notice you were attacked Lol



This mechanic is OK. That your friends can't be arsed is just fine, CCP cannot fix your friends. The thing that is not fine, is the fact that mining is uncompetitive with other stuff to the point that you cannot cover a) ship losses or b) pay a protection force. The economy is thus unbalanced, and the reasons have already been stated.

- non mining mineral sources in the game
- botting

remove those and the economics of mining self balance, because its a supply/demand economy.

Adding a slightly more robust barge would be a nice tweak, but it isn't the structural problem. Mining needs love, but I do not think CCP are brave enough to make the changes that would place economics in the hands of (actual human) miners, worse than that I don't think the player base is either - they are happy with the current price of ships.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#430 - 2011-10-25 10:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Bad section forum...Ganked again !!

"How to repopulate null sec"

1st get rid of bots

2nd get rid of bots

3rd no state of mind just because the "botter" caught has 20accounts or is from some big alliance

4th see the point above and repeat until 9

10th get rid of bots

Lol
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#431 - 2011-10-25 11:06:37 UTC
Adelphie wrote:
Rather than another whine thread about nerfing highsec I thought I'd post something with the aim of being constructive and take a look at what can be done to return nullsec to its glory days. I posted a similar comment recently, but thought it would be good to start a new thread to gather ideas of new features to entice people to null.

As a solo/small gang pvper I've noticed that nullsec has become rather stagnant over the past year or so, a lot of the old sov skirmishes are diminishing as people are seemingly content with what they have, and the footholds in 0.0 are too deeply entrenched to allow newer corps/alliances to establish themselves. People looking beyond empire are seemingly choosing to reside in WH space rather than null due to the low barriers to entry, unique gameplay and profitability so the landscape of null is not changing.

It's my opinion that currently the majority of eve stay in highsec because it is convenient, more sociable and easier to get into than nullsec with enough the features to keep people occupied and having fun. It’s possible for the average player to make enough isk in highsec to buy all the ships required relatively easily, so even the more expensive ships are easily accessible. I'm definitely not in the camp of "nerfing" highsec - this will just **** off existing residents and will not bring anything new to the game, but there needs to be a reason to explore other areas of the sandbox – currently CCP does not offer enough of a reason.

To entice players [back] into null there needs to be a big carrot and not a stick. This carrot should be unique, easy to get into and most importantly it should be fun. The problem is I have no idea what that carrot should be because I still happy out in null .

So my question to non-null sec players - What keeps you out of null, and what features would you like to see which might entice you to venture out here?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Edit - Some really good discussion so far of what's keeping people out of null.

The major frustrations seem to be:

- Lack of things for the casual gamer to participate in
- Lack of accessibility outside of major alliances
- Failure to give industrial's a meaningful task
- Too much unused, yet claimed, space
- Lack of objectives for small gang pvp
- Hard for people to actually enter nullsec due to pipe camps and bubbles

Some of the counters suggested

- CCP Soundwave - Considering swapping drone drops for bounties
- Making moon mining arrays raidable (which would be great imo)
- Limiting alliance size
- Making the cost of sov indirectly related to activity within a system
- Changing gate mechanics from appearing 15km from a gate to 150km.
- Making the cost of sov inversely proportional

CCP - It would be great if you could give your opinion on some of the counters and how implementable they are in reality (and whether you think they would be good for the game).

It's also fair to say that a number of people don't want to come to null... don't worry I don't propose we force you!


Update your "suggestions" tree with links to the OP's you are refering to. I would love to read the reasoning behind making people appear 150km from a gate...

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Adelphie
The Lone Wolves.
#432 - 2011-10-25 11:07:44 UTC
betoli wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Edit: I also suspect there is a lack of organisation. Surely they have fleets with PVPers and ratters, who could warp to the rescue quickly? Systems don't have hundreds of ways in and why not bait those cloakers out, have some people just a gate away.

you forgot we speak about game here.... What?

almost noone will spend their time like in RL job to protect you... We play for fun. this means:
1. Noone will stay for hours on gates or in belt just to make you mining safer
2. People will try to rescue you if you are attacked
3. You can die before anyone even will notice you were attacked Lol



This mechanic is OK. That your friends can't be arsed is just fine, CCP cannot fix your friends. The thing that is not fine, is the fact that mining is uncompetitive with other stuff to the point that you cannot cover a) ship losses or b) pay a protection force. The economy is thus unbalanced, and the reasons have already been stated.

- non mining mineral sources in the game
- botting

remove those and the economics of mining self balance, because its a supply/demand economy.

Adding a slightly more robust barge would be a nice tweak, but it isn't the structural problem. Mining needs love, but I do not think CCP are brave enough to make the changes that would place economics in the hands of (actual human) miners, worse than that I don't think the player base is either - they are happy with the current price of ships.


Both of these points are pretty sound.

The only thing duller than mining (imo) is watching people mine - so it will be dificult to motivate people to do that without significant rewards, which with the current state of null mining will just never happen.

In empire Concord offer this service for free, so to be able to replicate something close to these conditions in null players need to be incentivised to do so...

This would also fix the game for people like me because I know I'd be more likely to get a fight in a belt rather than ganking a hulk - which whilst satisfying is nowhere near as good as a "gf".

Adel
Adelphie
The Lone Wolves.
#433 - 2011-10-25 11:10:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Adelphie
Renan Ruivo wrote:

Update your "suggestions" tree with links to the OP's you are refering to. I would love to read the reasoning behind making people appear 150km from a gate...


They're somewhere in this big old thread....

I think the rationale was that people feel that they cannot even get into null due to the gate camps, so something which made players harder to catch on gates was a suggestion.

By putting it in the OP i'm not saying it's a good one, merely a suggested one Blink
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#434 - 2011-10-25 11:36:11 UTC
betoli wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Edit: I also suspect there is a lack of organisation. Surely they have fleets with PVPers and ratters, who could warp to the rescue quickly? Systems don't have hundreds of ways in and why not bait those cloakers out, have some people just a gate away.

you forgot we speak about game here.... What?

almost noone will spend their time like in RL job to protect you... We play for fun. this means:
1. Noone will stay for hours on gates or in belt just to make you mining safer
2. People will try to rescue you if you are attacked
3. You can die before anyone even will notice you were attacked Lol



This mechanic is OK. That your friends can't be arsed is just fine, CCP cannot fix your friends. The thing that is not fine, is the fact that mining is uncompetitive with other stuff to the point that you cannot cover a) ship losses or b) pay a protection force.

YES. mechanic is OK.
and NO. Problems with covering your losses or paying for protection are very rare in 0.0 space.

Real problem of 0.0: too low risk for rewards you get there. That's why goons plag in empire (too much money and too low fun in 0.0), that's why bots, that's why shiny ships with deadspace modules even for ratting.....

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Adelphie
The Lone Wolves.
#435 - 2011-10-25 11:43:16 UTC
March rabbit wrote:

Real problem of 0.0: too low risk for rewards you get there. That's why goons plag in empire (too much money and too low fun in 0.0), that's why bots, that's why shiny ships with deadspace modules even for ratting.....


Not sure I fully agree with this one - I think that the risk versus reward of certain solo activities is not quite right..

Plexing: Far too easy not to get caught for a high reward: New ships like t3s have been introduced to make plexing easier at a relatively low cost (can make the cost of a tengu back in 1 good plex).
Anoms: Again, Sanctum runners are not at as much risk as many people think, but the isk isn't wildly better than lvl4's
Mining: Royally Screwed - not much more to say.
Manufacturing - See above
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#436 - 2011-10-25 11:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: betoli
*delete failforum cockup*
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#437 - 2011-10-25 11:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: betoli
Adelphie wrote:
[quote=betoli]
The only thing duller than mining (imo) is watching people mine - so it will be dificult to motivate people to do that without significant rewards, which with the current state of null mining will just never happen.


So there are two ways of achieving that. Either mineral prices are good enough to pay for 2 players time including compensation for the boredom, or barges are survivable to allow a corpmate in the same system doing something else, to arrive and get points on an attacker before the barge goes pop (I don't care if the barge survives, so long as the aggressor takes a risk). We do want to avoid the situation where miners dock up because a single unknown player (or AFK cloaker) pops up in local, because thats a seriously unfun mechanic. I think that should be the goal of any survivable barge tweak or new barge ship.

An expensive HULK has around what 22K EHP? So it only has around 45 seconds survivability against anything cruiser class. Is that enough for the most expensive tankable option? Whats a realistic time for a corpmate pissing about somewhere in the system to arrive??
Adelphie
The Lone Wolves.
#438 - 2011-10-25 12:08:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Adelphie
betoli wrote:


An expensive HULK has around what 22K EHP? So it only has around 45 seconds survivability against anything cruiser class. Is that enough for the most expensive tankable option? Whats a realistic time for a corpmate pissing about somewhere in the system to arrive??


That's a reasonable reply actually - How can you expect protection if you won't surive long enough for it to arrive?

How about this for a back of a cigarette packet idea - Industry upgrades give big tank buffs to mining barges - Therefore making them able to tank tackling frigates, and survive small gang/solo players long enough for backup to arrive.

Edit - Apparently CCP doesn't like english slang. *** changed to cigarette...
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#439 - 2011-10-25 12:13:32 UTC
betoli wrote:
Adelphie wrote:
[quote=betoli]
The only thing duller than mining (imo) is watching people mine - so it will be dificult to motivate people to do that without significant rewards, which with the current state of null mining will just never happen.


So there are two ways of achieving that. Either mineral prices are good enough to pay for 2 players time including compensation for the boredom, or barges are survivable to allow a corpmate in the same system doing something else, to arrive and get points on an attacker before the barge goes pop (I don't care if the barge survives, so long as the aggressor takes a risk). We do want to avoid the situation where miners dock up because a single unknown player (or AFK cloaker) pops up in local, because thats a seriously unfun mechanic. I think that should be the goal of any survivable barge tweak or new barge ship.

An expensive HULK has around what 22K EHP? So it only has around 45 seconds survivability against anything cruiser class. Is that enough for the most expensive tankable option? Whats a realistic time for a corpmate pissing about somewhere in the system to arrive??


You can get a Hulk above the 30k EHP mark with nothing more than ordinary meta and T2.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Hung TuLo
Running with Dogs
Northern Coalition.
#440 - 2011-10-25 12:26:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Hung TuLo
I would really be interested to hear from the DEVS and CSM's.

I hope you guys are reading this thread and being carefull to look at these posts. There is a wealth of information here. You wanted to know how to get people into NULL. Here are the answers.


I challenge you and I hope the other posters agree with me. We challenge you DEVs and CSM's to make EVE better. Make NULL more player centric.


Yes there are systems in null that are hardly visited. How do you intend to replenish NuLL with foilks.


What do you say DEVS? What do you say CSMs? What do you say HILGAR????

"In space all warriors are cold warriors" ---  General Chang  Star Trek VI