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Gunnery Support Skills... WTF CCP?
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Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#1 - 2013-01-26 00:33:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Let's take a look at gunnery support skills.

Gunnery................. Rank 1
Controlled Bursts... Rank 2
Motion Prediction... Rank 2
Rapid Firing........... Rank 2
Sharpshooter......... Rank 2

Looks good so far right? Base skill is a rank 1, then the support skills are rank 2s. Kind of makes sense. But then;

Surgical Strike....... Rank 4
Trajectory Analysis Rank 5

Why are these such high rank skills? I sort of understand why Surgical Strike is a high rank skill, after all it is a straight up 15% extra damage on all your turrets, but Trajectory Analysis? Extra falloff? Why is this the most SP intensive support skill? Why is Rapid Firing, the largest damage increase of any of these skills, why is that only rank 2?

I'd love to see these changed to be more consistent. Something like this:

Gunnery................. Rank 1
Controlled Bursts... Rank 2
Sharpshooter......... Rank 2
Trajectory Analysis Rank 2
Motion Prediction... Rank 3
Surgical Strike....... Rank 3
Rapid Firing........... Rank 5

So now we have Gunnery at rank 1, Controlled Bursts, Sharpshooter and Trajectory Analysis at a nice easy rank 2, then the skills that have a medium increase in DPS at 3, and Rapid Firing, the big one at rank 5.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-01-26 02:41:20 UTC
considering i have them all to 5, i say they should all be changed to rank 8 skills.

(just train them...)

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#3 - 2013-01-26 02:53:36 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
considering i have them all to 5, i say they should all be changed to rank 8 skills.

(just train them...)


I have them all to V except Trajectory Analysis and Surgical Strike, which are next in my skill queue. It wont matter a bit to me if they get changed, and my proposed change would not in any way reduce the total SP costs of training them all to V.

You don't think it is strange that the largest increase to turret dps is on a rank 2 skill, when such a small increase as 5% falloff is rank 5? Would it not make sense to have the larger benefit take longer to train?
stoicfaux
#4 - 2013-01-26 03:11:26 UTC
Paikis wrote:
You don't think it is strange that the largest increase to turret dps is on a rank 2 skill, when such a small increase as 5% falloff is rank 5? Would it not make sense to have the larger benefit take longer to train?

Relax. It was just CCP giving the Mach a much needed nerfing.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#5 - 2013-01-26 09:30:19 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Paikis wrote:
You don't think it is strange that the largest increase to turret dps is on a rank 2 skill, when such a small increase as 5% falloff is rank 5? Would it not make sense to have the larger benefit take longer to train?

Relax. It was just CCP giving the Mach a much needed nerfing.


Arche-pre-nerfing? Wasn't this part of the old argument about how Minmatar was bad way back when?
stoicfaux
#6 - 2013-01-26 13:25:28 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Paikis wrote:
You don't think it is strange that the largest increase to turret dps is on a rank 2 skill, when such a small increase as 5% falloff is rank 5? Would it not make sense to have the larger benefit take longer to train?

Relax. It was just CCP giving the Mach a much needed nerfing.


Arche-pre-nerfing? Wasn't this part of the old argument about how Minmatar was bad way back when?

Karma's a *****.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Eternal Error
Doomheim
#7 - 2013-01-26 15:54:32 UTC
Who cares?
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#8 - 2013-01-26 16:01:35 UTC
If you trane right, (wrong?), you can get over 10 million SP in gunnery and still not have a T2 gun.
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#9 - 2013-01-26 16:46:38 UTC
I'm not online so I can't check, but might it have to do with requirements? What do you get for having those at V? And compared to the others, does that make more sense?

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
Frank Millar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-01-26 22:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Frank Millar
Tul Breetai wrote:
I'm not online so I can't check, but might it have to do with requirements? What do you get for having those at V? And compared to the others, does that make more sense?

According to Evemon and as far as I can tell, Surgical Strike V and Trajectory Analysis V enable no other skills or modules.

One needs Motion Prediction V for Large Autos, Blasters, and Pulses and Sharpshooter V for Large Arty, Rails and Beams (T2, that is).

That's about it, I think. I'm sure someone will correct me if wrong. Bear
Darius Brinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-01-26 23:05:41 UTC
Frank Millar wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:
I'm not online so I can't check, but might it have to do with requirements? What do you get for having those at V? And compared to the others, does that make more sense?

According to Evemon and as far as I can tell, Surgical Strike V and Trajectory Analysis V enable no other skills or modules.

One needs Motion Prediction V for Large Autos, Blasters, and Pulses and Sharpshooter V for Large Arty, Rails and Beams.

That's about it, I think. I'm sure someone will correct me if wrong. Bear


They are not prerequisites, but are damn cool and useful.

Surgical Strike needs no explanation, and Trajectory Analysis is great for autocannons and arties. Even 5% is great. It adds up to your effective range. If you add tracking enhancers and use a hull that gives bonus to falloff (like Vagabond or Sleipnir), you learn to notice and appreciate the difference.

If you want silly bonus for 2/3 of a month worth of training, please check Drone Durability (Rank 5). That one doesn't make any sense.
Frank Millar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-01-27 09:27:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Frank Millar
Oh, I agree totally. I was just checking out the question posed by the poster above me.

On Drone Durability V: I am (was) a bit of a Drone freak, and I trained it. 5% more Shields, Armor and Hull seemed worth it. Was I wrong? Oops
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#13 - 2013-01-27 12:07:05 UTC
Eternal Error wrote:
Who cares?

Remove standings and insurance.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-01-27 15:59:45 UTC
Tul Breetai wrote:
I'm not online so I can't check, but might it have to do with requirements? What do you get for having those at V? And compared to the others, does that make more sense?


the only gun skill that gives access to items is traj analysis at 4 for T2 tracking comps.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Marsan
#15 - 2013-01-27 17:21:41 UTC
Frank Millar wrote:
Oh, I agree totally. I was just checking out the question posed by the poster above me.

On Drone Durability V: I am (was) a bit of a Drone freak, and I trained it. 5% more Shields, Armor and Hull seemed worth it. Was I wrong? Oops


Yes and no. It gives your drones more survivability in PVE, and some what in PVP. But if someone is targeting your drones with the right weapon system it won't matter.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#16 - 2013-01-27 20:05:58 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:
I'm not online so I can't check, but might it have to do with requirements? What do you get for having those at V? And compared to the others, does that make more sense?


the only gun skill that gives access to items is traj analysis at 4 for T2 tracking comps.


I think what he meant was with regards to how large long range turret specialisation skills (f.e Large Beam Laser Specialisation) require Sharpshooter V and the short range (Large Pulse Laser Specialisation) spec requires Motion Prediction V...

But these are both rank 2 skills, so nothing there.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#17 - 2013-01-29 13:40:41 UTC
Why is it rank 5 not lower? Well, maybe because falloff is important to projectiles and TA V is like a cherry on a top and means you are maxing out your damage projection. Why going into full expert mode should be cheap?

Invalid signature format
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#18 - 2013-01-29 15:52:18 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Let's take a look at gunnery support skills.

Gunnery................. Rank 1
Controlled Bursts... Rank 2
Motion Prediction... Rank 2
Rapid Firing........... Rank 2
Sharpshooter......... Rank 2

Looks good so far right? Base skill is a rank 1, then the support skills are rank 2s. Kind of makes sense. But then;

Surgical Strike....... Rank 4
Trajectory Analysis Rank 5

Why are these such high rank skills? I sort of understand why Surgical Strike is a high rank skill, after all it is a straight up 15% extra damage on all your turrets, but Trajectory Analysis? Extra falloff? Why is this the most SP intensive support skill? Why is Rapid Firing, the largest damage increase of any of these skills, why is that only rank 2?

I'd love to see these changed to be more consistent. Something like this:

Gunnery................. Rank 1
Controlled Bursts... Rank 2
Sharpshooter......... Rank 2
Trajectory Analysis Rank 2
Motion Prediction... Rank 3
Surgical Strike....... Rank 3
Rapid Firing........... Rank 5

So now we have Gunnery at rank 1, Controlled Bursts, Sharpshooter and Trajectory Analysis at a nice easy rank 2, then the skills that have a medium increase in DPS at 3, and Rapid Firing, the big one at rank 5.


If you think that's bad, look at Warhead Upgrades that the missile users have to train: Rank 5 for +2% damage per level.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#19 - 2013-01-29 22:28:42 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Why is it rank 5 not lower? Well, maybe because falloff is important to projectiles and TA V is like a cherry on a top and means you are maxing out your damage projection. Why going into full expert mode should be cheap?


So then why is Sharpshooter not a rank V? I mean, optimal range is important to Lasers and Hybrids and Sharpshooter V is like a cherry on top and means you are maxing out your damage projection. Why shouldn't 'expert mode' be expensive?

Malcanis wrote:
If you think that's bad, look at Warhead Upgrades that the missile users have to train: Rank 5 for +2% damage per level.


Yeah, the missile supports are funky as well.
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
#20 - 2013-01-29 23:33:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Pohbis
Paikis wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Why is it rank 5 not lower? Well, maybe because falloff is important to projectiles and TA V is like a cherry on a top and means you are maxing out your damage projection. Why going into full expert mode should be cheap?
So then why is Sharpshooter not a rank V? I mean, optimal range is important to Lasers and Hybrids and Sharpshooter V is like a cherry on top and means you are maxing out your damage projection. Why shouldn't 'expert mode' be expensive?
I think the line of thought is that optimal range, while increasing range, still makes the weapon system operate within its intended usage scenarios. Short range are still short range, and long range are still long range.

Trajectory Analysis, because of the falloff mechanics, allows you to fit for unintended "out of the box" fits. Like using autocannons as long range weapons.

Paikis wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
If you think that's bad, look at Warhead Upgrades that the missile users have to train: Rank 5 for +2% damage per level.
Yeah, the missile supports are funky as well.
Not only are they funky, but unlike their gunnery equivalents; the range skills don't add anything to your damage projection.
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