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[Basic Cane Setup] after PG changes?
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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#21 - 2013-01-23 04:05:17 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
You realize they intend to nerf tier 3 BC mobility, right?



I do but in a Naga I can shoot from 250km away with rails I really dont care if I am a bit slower.

In an Arty Tornado it's all about the alpha so whether the shot hits or misses you just gtfo .5 sec after hitting F1.
Both will still fill their roles well.


The only thing to worry about in these ships is being aligned to your safe.



https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#22 - 2013-01-23 06:36:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
IbanezLaney wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
You realize they intend to nerf tier 3 BC mobility, right?



I do but in a Naga I can shoot from 250km away with rails I really dont care if I am a bit slower.

In an Arty Tornado it's all about the alpha so whether the shot hits or misses you just gtfo .5 sec after hitting F1.
Both will still fill their roles well.


The only thing to worry about in these ships is being aligned to your safe.






Actually Nerfing the Mobility is going to hurt them quite a bit, but seems CCP is on a all out war to kill solo & small gang PVP.

Nope cutting the mobility and being being jerk off number 50 trying to alpha a frig isn't gonna hurt the Tornado as a sniper platform. However losing the mobility will kill it for "small nanno gang" PVP. It's pretty clear if you look at all the changes that the bulk of them harm small gang & solo PVP more than any other thing in the game.

CCP is pushing the bring more friends mentality so they drive up Subs or else they are clearly clueless as to what the changes bring in the real world environment.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#23 - 2013-01-23 08:39:37 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
You realize they intend to nerf tier 3 BC mobility, right?



I do but in a Naga I can shoot from 250km away with rails I really dont care if I am a bit slower.

In an Arty Tornado it's all about the alpha so whether the shot hits or misses you just gtfo .5 sec after hitting F1.
Both will still fill their roles well.


The only thing to worry about in these ships is being aligned to your safe.






Actually Nerfing the Mobility is going to hurt them quite a bit, but seems CCP is on a all out war to kill solo & small gang PVP.

Nope cutting the mobility and being being jerk off number 50 trying to alpha a frig isn't gonna hurt the Tornado as a sniper platform. However losing the mobility will kill it for "small nanno gang" PVP. It's pretty clear if you look at all the changes that the bulk of them harm small gang & solo PVP more than any other thing in the game.

CCP is pushing the bring more friends mentality so they drive up Subs or else they are clearly clueless as to what the changes bring in the real world environment.



Bc's with battleship dps and cruiser mobility aren't good for small scale pvp unless you are using those ships.. While imbalancing stuff vs all the others.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Darius Brinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-01-23 11:04:11 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Mutnin wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
You realize they intend to nerf tier 3 BC mobility, right?



I do but in a Naga I can shoot from 250km away with rails I really dont care if I am a bit slower.

In an Arty Tornado it's all about the alpha so whether the shot hits or misses you just gtfo .5 sec after hitting F1.
Both will still fill their roles well.


The only thing to worry about in these ships is being aligned to your safe.






Actually Nerfing the Mobility is going to hurt them quite a bit, but seems CCP is on a all out war to kill solo & small gang PVP.

Nope cutting the mobility and being being jerk off number 50 trying to alpha a frig isn't gonna hurt the Tornado as a sniper platform. However losing the mobility will kill it for "small nanno gang" PVP. It's pretty clear if you look at all the changes that the bulk of them harm small gang & solo PVP more than any other thing in the game.

CCP is pushing the bring more friends mentality so they drive up Subs or else they are clearly clueless as to what the changes bring in the real world environment.



Bc's with battleship dps and cruiser mobility aren't good for small scale pvp unless you are using those ships.. While imbalancing stuff vs all the others.


I expect Naga/Oracle/Tornado snipers will not really care.

Talos pilots, on the other side...
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#25 - 2013-01-23 11:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Garviel Tarrant wrote:


Bc's with battleship dps and cruiser mobility aren't good for small scale pvp unless you are using those ships.. While imbalancing stuff vs all the others.


Their trade off has always been the fact they are paper thin, just like the Destroyer class. If used properly they are an awesome addition to small gang PVP and really add nothing to large scale gangs that was not already there, so there is no need to gimp them to only be useful in larger fleet fights by reducing their mobility.. Nano Tornados & Talos were awesome additions to the game for small gangs that need to hit and run against larger groups.

Even the Naga could be used very effectively for small gang combat, it was really only the Oracle that I never really liked due to it mainly being an armor platform. It was still a pretty effective ship though.

They are a nice trade off less tank and more gank and a somewhat affordable price.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#26 - 2013-01-23 12:25:12 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:


Bc's with battleship dps and cruiser mobility aren't good for small scale pvp unless you are using those ships.. While imbalancing stuff vs all the others.


Their trade off has always been the fact they are paper thin, just like the Destroyer class. If used properly they are an awesome addition to small gang PVP and really add nothing to large scale gangs that was not already there, so there is no need to gimp them to only be useful in larger fleet fights by reducing their mobility.. Nano Tornados & Talos were awesome additions to the game for small gangs that need to hit and run against larger groups.

Even the Naga could be used very effectively for small gang combat, it was really only the Oracle that I never really liked due to it mainly being an armor platform. It was still a pretty effective ship though.

They are a nice trade off less tank and more gank and a somewhat affordable price.



Yea except the destroyer class isn't faster than frigates... (also tier 3 bc's and destroyers aren't comparable at all..)

And tell me how will being able to deal 1k dps at 20, having a tank slightly lower than the cane and about the same speed would make the Talos only viable for blobs?

Same goes for the others although obviously they don't share the talos's ****** projection at 20.

All the tier 3's would still be really ******* good at what they do even if none of them was faster than the cane,


BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Rovain Sess
Wu Fanged
#27 - 2013-01-23 15:27:49 UTC
Man I'm happy about the upcoming changes to armor - been along time coming. As to the Cane, it's still a good ship. It's still viable, just not a constant win machine. Funny how peeps complain about it's UN-solo ability - wrong. Target selection isn't a shared skill it seems. Instead of click and win - some of us will actually have to think, then click and win. Shocked
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#28 - 2013-01-23 21:37:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Garviel Tarrant wrote:



Yea except the destroyer class isn't faster than frigates... (also tier 3 bc's and destroyers aren't comparable at all..)

And tell me how will being able to deal 1k dps at 20, having a tank slightly lower than the cane and about the same speed would make the Talos only viable for blobs?

Same goes for the others although obviously they don't share the talos's ****** projection at 20.

All the tier 3's would still be really ******* good at what they do even if none of them was faster than the cane,





Your comparing apples and oranges.. Of course the Destroyer class isn't faster than frigs. Actually I'll take that back because certain Destroyers such as the Thrasher & perhaps the Cormarant can likely out run many of the AB frigs.

Again apples and oranges..

Also you can't compare the Dessie with a Frig and complain the dessie is slower while turning around and using that as an excuse to why tier 3 are too fast vs other "BC's". Yet again apples and oranges.

If you are going to compare "down" a class then you would need to compare them with cruisers and yes there are many cruisers that are faster than the tier 3 BC's or at the very least just as fast. Lets also not forget to mention the Tempest.. It's almost as maneuverable as a Hurricane, likely more comparable to the Drake.. Lets not even go with the Machariel which is absolutely over the top.

You seem to forget that one of the major parts of Minmatar tank is their speed. Slowing Minmatar ships down goes directly against what they are meant to do and that is fast hit and run not slow and brawling. The Talos might be a bit fast for a Gal ship but again it's role is different than most Gal ships. It's also a ship that CCP got right.

Yet despite this we don't see fleets of Talos everywhere because they simply aren't good for large scale engagements, but rather are better defined as a hit and run ship better suited for small gang fighting or gank squads. Just like you rarely see fleets of Hurricanes even though it's one of the best BC's it's quite simple not the best fleet BC.

The Tornado & Naga see some usage in large gang fleets and killing it's mobility likely won't hamper that but it will certainly harm it's viability of using it in small gang fights.

The simple fact is there are a handful of ships that work very well for small gang nano fights and CCP is taking the hammer & chisel to each of them, to dumb them down for the masses that can only sit in a blob and press F1.

The only real problem with their Tier 3 BC's is the fact they made ganking far too easy.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#29 - 2013-01-24 00:01:40 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
You realize they intend to nerf tier 3 BC mobility, right?



I do but in a Naga I can shoot from 250km away with rails I really dont care if I am a bit slower.

In an Arty Tornado it's all about the alpha so whether the shot hits or misses you just gtfo .5 sec after hitting F1.
Both will still fill their roles well.


The only thing to worry about in these ships is being aligned to your safe.






Actually Nerfing the Mobility is going to hurt them quite a bit, but seems CCP is on a all out war to kill solo & small gang PVP.

Nope cutting the mobility and being being jerk off number 50 trying to alpha a frig isn't gonna hurt the Tornado as a sniper platform. However losing the mobility will kill it for "small nanno gang" PVP. It's pretty clear if you look at all the changes that the bulk of them harm small gang & solo PVP more than any other thing in the game.

CCP is pushing the bring more friends mentality so they drive up Subs or else they are clearly clueless as to what the changes bring in the real world environment.


if you want small gang nano pvp, the new cruisers are EPIC. Caracals with snakes, heat and boosts can easily hit over 5km/s and spit out good OMNI damage to 70k with fury, 90+ with navy. They are an AMAZING small gang ship. I've many times brought a small caracal fleet against larger cruiser/ non tier 3 bc fleets and won.

Nerfing the tier 3 bc's speed some makes sense, they are incredibly mobile with incredible gank and damage projection capability. They are out of line with the frigate -> cruiser -> BC -> BS mobility progression IMO.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#30 - 2013-01-24 07:48:49 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:



Yea except the destroyer class isn't faster than frigates... (also tier 3 bc's and destroyers aren't comparable at all..)

And tell me how will being able to deal 1k dps at 20, having a tank slightly lower than the cane and about the same speed would make the Talos only viable for blobs?

Same goes for the others although obviously they don't share the talos's ****** projection at 20.

All the tier 3's would still be really ******* good at what they do even if none of them was faster than the cane,





Your comparing apples and oranges.. Of course the Destroyer class isn't faster than frigs. Actually I'll take that back because certain Destroyers such as the Thrasher & perhaps the Cormarant can likely out run many of the AB frigs.

Again apples and oranges..

Also you can't compare the Dessie with a Frig and complain the dessie is slower while turning around and using that as an excuse to why tier 3 are too fast vs other "BC's". Yet again apples and oranges.

If you are going to compare "down" a class then you would need to compare them with cruisers and yes there are many cruisers that are faster than the tier 3 BC's or at the very least just as fast. Lets also not forget to mention the Tempest.. It's almost as maneuverable as a Hurricane, likely more comparable to the Drake.. Lets not even go with the Machariel which is absolutely over the top.

You seem to forget that one of the major parts of Minmatar tank is their speed. Slowing Minmatar ships down goes directly against what they are meant to do and that is fast hit and run not slow and brawling. The Talos might be a bit fast for a Gal ship but again it's role is different than most Gal ships. It's also a ship that CCP got right.

Yet despite this we don't see fleets of Talos everywhere because they simply aren't good for large scale engagements, but rather are better defined as a hit and run ship better suited for small gang fighting or gank squads. Just like you rarely see fleets of Hurricanes even though it's one of the best BC's it's quite simple not the best fleet BC.

The Tornado & Naga see some usage in large gang fleets and killing it's mobility likely won't hamper that but it will certainly harm it's viability of using it in small gang fights.

The simple fact is there are a handful of ships that work very well for small gang nano fights and CCP is taking the hammer & chisel to each of them, to dumb them down for the masses that can only sit in a blob and press F1.

The only real problem with their Tier 3 BC's is the fact they made ganking far too easy.


Did you miss the part where i said Tier 3's and destroyers weren't comparable? I wasn't the one who was making that comparison.....

A ship can be massively overpowered at a small scale without being good in a fleet. ASB's were massively overpowered at a small scale but terrible for fleets for example

But this is a pointless conversation, CCP have already said they are nerfing the mobility of the talos so hah! ^


Tier 3's have massive projection, awesome mobility, really good fittings... They are really really good. Again there is no reason the Talos won't still be reallly really good even if it looses say.. 100 m/s of speed.



You say that CCP are nerfins ships that are GREAT FOR SOLOING... But they are great for soloing because they are over powered. Yes nerfing them will make them worse for soloing, but CCP have also buffed a lot of other ships to make those better at soloing instead. So you are losing your Obvious choice winmachines, but you're gaining way more options.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#31 - 2013-01-24 07:56:14 UTC
chatgris wrote:
[

if you want small gang nano pvp, the new cruisers are EPIC. Caracals with snakes, heat and boosts can easily hit over 5km/s and spit out good OMNI damage to 70k with fury, 90+ with navy. They are an AMAZING small gang ship. I've many times brought a small caracal fleet against larger cruiser/ non tier 3 bc fleets and won.

Nerfing the tier 3 bc's speed some makes sense, they are incredibly mobile with incredible gank and damage projection capability. They are out of line with the frigate -> cruiser -> BC -> BS mobility progression IMO.


Yea the Caracals seem to be pretty nice, I've fitted up a few but haven't had the opportunity to try them out. The Ham fit seems pretty damn good for a T1 cruiser and almost seems like it's better than the Drake which shows how badly the Drake has been gimped.
CausticS0da
Shrubbery Acquisitions
Blohm and Voss Shipyards Alliance
#32 - 2013-01-26 17:52:33 UTC
Something involving gas miners or salvagers in high slots and cargo expanders in the lows.
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