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[Retribution 1.1] Armor Tanking 1.5

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Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#901 - 2013-01-25 22:53:15 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
" Add a new skill to the game called Armor Upgrades. This skill reduces the mass penalty of all armor plates by 5% per level. (Int/Mem, rank 3, requires Mechanics 3) This skill affects all plates (including 1600mm) and is separate from the stat change listed below."

MAKE IT RANK 1 . I'm not asking. It's straight forward demand. I'm one of new players. But i can already tell you there is enough to train. Making it rank 3 is pain for training. It's like we train skill that shield tanking people don't need at all. There is no need to for it be rank 3 , not at all. Fix. Thanks.


I've already suggested that this skill be dropped and that this ability of reducing armour mass be included in the hull upgrades skill, so I fully support your suggestion. Indeed why not just reduce the mass of armour across the board fro everyone, why do we even need a new skill?

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#902 - 2013-01-25 23:02:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Freighdee Katt
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I've already suggested that this skill be dropped and that this ability of reducing armour mass be included in the hull upgrades skill, so I fully support your suggestion. Indeed why not just reduce the mass of armour across the board fro everyone, why do we even need a new skill?

Even better; add a really nice role bonus to the armor boats designated for the "attack" role that reduces the plate mass penalty by 50 to 80%. No useless SP bloatage needed, and it would add a hell of a lot more appeal to the BCs and cruisers slotted for this role that are expected to armor tank. It would also make far more sense than the widely reviled rep bonus on the Brutix. In fact, with some really well thought out actual BALANCING of armor role bonuses like this, they could forget all the odd-plate mass hocus pocus and skills entirely, and the whole thing would come out simpler and better.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#903 - 2013-01-25 23:08:18 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Not that I don't agree with the sentence (I do, even the Cyclone had crazy fits before it had it's grid toned down a bit), but it's sounding similar to what some shield-tankers say about armor buffering being OP:
Double-plated armorpumped EAMN+DCd Damnation with it's Amarr resist profile, amarr resist bonus, and hull health bonus made even more glaring with slaves and it's Armored Warfare links going over 500k EHP.
True. But that Damnation isn't going to be zipping around the field at 1200m/s+, kicking out 600+ dps, all while burst tanking ridiculous amounts of damage. Damnation is gonna sit there like a brick doing shiite for damage. Armor buffer is fine. It has good PG and speed limitations which balance it decently. And to some extent, so shield buffer is fine too (though it could use some tweaks). But active armor is horrible (outside of niche cases like the Myrm - which is awesome). Hopefully Fozzie will be able to solve it all.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#904 - 2013-01-25 23:39:28 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
Not that I don't agree with the sentence (I do, even the Cyclone had crazy fits before it had it's grid toned down a bit), but it's sounding similar to what some shield-tankers say about armor buffering being OP:
Double-plated armorpumped EAMN+DCd Damnation with it's Amarr resist profile, amarr resist bonus, and hull health bonus made even more glaring with slaves and it's Armored Warfare links going over 500k EHP.
True. But that Damnation isn't going to be zipping around the field at 1200m/s+, kicking out 600+ dps, all while burst tanking ridiculous amounts of damage.

How do you know? After CS overhaul Damnation is likely to become an unnerfed, armour-tanking NH and that would really rock. At least that's what I pesonally expect.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#905 - 2013-01-25 23:43:51 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
" Add a new skill to the game called Armor Upgrades. This skill reduces the mass penalty of all armor plates by 5% per level. (Int/Mem, rank 3, requires Mechanics 3) This skill affects all plates (including 1600mm) and is separate from the stat change listed below."

MAKE IT RANK 1 . I'm not asking. It's straight forward demand. I'm one of new players. But i can already tell you there is enough to train. Making it rank 3 is pain for training. It's like we train skill that shield tanking people don't need at all. There is no need to for it be rank 3 , not at all. Fix. Thanks.

Shield tank requires (9 skills):
4x Compensation Skills at 2
Shield Upgrades at 2
Shield Operation at 1
Shield Management at 3
Shield Compensation at 2
Tactical Shield Manipulation at 4

Armor tank requires (6 skills):
4x Compensation Skills at 2
Hull Upgrades at 2
Repair Systems at 1

Even if you completely ignore the TSM skill for shield tanking, training into armor tanking does not have that many skill requirements. Not sure what you're complaining about here.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#906 - 2013-01-25 23:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Active armour tanking also requires you to get injectors, fortify your cap, increase your grid etc. .. but it is true that the basic skills to use the repairers and get rudimentary resist mods require less time to train than shield ditto you just won't be able to tank so much as a gnat without all the secondary support skills.
Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#907 - 2013-01-26 00:02:48 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Active armour tanking also requires you to get injectors, fortify your cap, increase your grid etc. .. but it is true that the basic skills to use the repairers and get rudimentary resist mods require less time to train than shield ditto you just won't be able to tank so much as a gnat without all the secondary support skills.

Which applies for active shield tanking as well.

You can arguably do without the cap boosters by using an ASB, but keep in mind that shield tanking requires more active hardeners than sub-BS armor tanking, and is therefore more dependent on good cap skills just to keep your resists up.

More training is never a popular thing to implement, but let's not come up with fake reasons why it "shouldn't" be done.
Paul Maken
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#908 - 2013-01-26 00:11:01 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
so.... what if we would be able to disable our shields to increase cap recharge rate. Could be a fun option to buff active armor tanks, esp those with few medium slots.

A reverse Shield Power Relay?
Sounds fun, but mainly for PvE, as I'm not sure what kind of PvP fit would need such a "mild" bonus over a cap booster (assuming you can fit one at all).

You mean like a Capacitor Power Relay?
S'totan
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#909 - 2013-01-26 00:36:33 UTC
Armor Reps:New:
• Reduce the Powergrid requirements of all Medium Armor Repair units by 20%
• Reduce the Powergrid requirements of all Large Armor Repair units by 10%

Love you Fozzie, thank you for listening to my plee!
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#910 - 2013-01-26 03:01:23 UTC
Paul Maken wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
so.... what if we would be able to disable our shields to increase cap recharge rate. Could be a fun option to buff active armor tanks, esp those with few medium slots.

A reverse Shield Power Relay?
Sounds fun, but mainly for PvE, as I'm not sure what kind of PvP fit would need such a "mild" bonus over a cap booster (assuming you can fit one at all).

You mean like a Capacitor Power Relay?

i mean no shields, no recharge, nothing.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Naomi Anthar
#911 - 2013-01-26 03:12:43 UTC
Edward Pierce wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
" Add a new skill to the game called Armor Upgrades. This skill reduces the mass penalty of all armor plates by 5% per level. (Int/Mem, rank 3, requires Mechanics 3) This skill affects all plates (including 1600mm) and is separate from the stat change listed below."

MAKE IT RANK 1 . I'm not asking. It's straight forward demand. I'm one of new players. But i can already tell you there is enough to train. Making it rank 3 is pain for training. It's like we train skill that shield tanking people don't need at all. There is no need to for it be rank 3 , not at all. Fix. Thanks.

Shield tank requires (9 skills):
4x Compensation Skills at 2
Shield Upgrades at 2
Shield Operation at 1
Shield Management at 3
Shield Compensation at 2
Tactical Shield Manipulation at 4

Armor tank requires (6 skills):
4x Compensation Skills at 2
Hull Upgrades at 2
Repair Systems at 1

Even if you completely ignore the TSM skill for shield tanking, training into armor tanking does not have that many skill requirements. Not sure what you're complaining about here.



Yeah sure you need 4 shield compensation skills ... oh wait you don't need at all. Or come post some brilliant fits where you use passive shield hardeners.( how the hell Goonswarm hold any SOV with thier passive shield hardener fleets?) Grand total of 1 compensation skill may, but will not be used : EM one. That really drops number of skills you did mention. And to clarify new skill is coming in + you forgot Reactive Armor Hardener skill too. That is going to be 8 skills vs 5 shield (+4 Lolpensations for shield tanking). And last but not least even after all those changes shield tanking is still superior. So i know what i'm complaining about. For those 5 shield skills you get superior active and passive tanking compared to armor. Wait i'm dumb there is no thing like armor passive tanking it doesn't regenerate on it's own.

Shorter version of my post : Fixing imbalance between shield and armor tanking shouldn't punish armor tanking players even further by forcing them to waste more time into new HIGH RANK skills.
Mund Richard
#912 - 2013-01-26 03:27:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Edward Pierce wrote:

Shield tank requires (9 skills):
4x Compensation Skills at 2
Shield Upgrades at 2
Shield Operation at 1
Shield Management at 3
Shield Compensation at 2
Tactical Shield Manipulation at 4

Armor tank requires (6 skills):
4x Compensation Skills at 2
Hull Upgrades at 2
Repair Systems at 1

Even if you completely ignore the TSM skill for shield tanking, training into armor tanking does not have that many skill requirements. Not sure what you're complaining about here.

Well...
Shield can fairly well pass on the 4 compensation or only train it to III-IV, since it's not like it's mandatory for the EANM, and TSM is only needed at rank IV.

Armor also has
Mechanics at 1 (for reppers)
Armor rigging at 3 (or pass on armor rigs unless you enjoy being in falloff of your blasters)
And flying a battleship, you might want to consider the Armor Resistance Phasing at 3
...Which surprises me that I say so, but it's fairly good instead of a 3rd T2 EAMN if you have the cap spare (for example with 6 lows triple rep, instead of the DC, assuming you manage to go 1v1, goes a long way possibly).

Interestingly, Repair Systems and Resistance Phasing skills increases the cap consumption.
Kinda funny.
Specially since the second one does nothing once adapted, just drink cap faster.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#913 - 2013-01-26 04:19:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Krell Kroenen
CCP Fozzie wrote:
New update, we're planning at the moment to reduce the powergrid use on medium and large armor reps.

Mediums by 20%
Larges by 10%

We were hoping to get these and all the other latest versions of the changes up on Sisi today, but we had an unrelated issue with our Sisi build system. ETA for Sisi is as soon as possible, sorry for the delay.


Good to see some true love for active armor tanking that doesn't focus on a gimic module.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#914 - 2013-01-26 05:24:10 UTC
What about Energized Regenerative Membranes, CCP Fozzie? They're atm on top of the least used modules list.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#915 - 2013-01-26 05:32:57 UTC
Good start, now increase the base repair amount by 10% and decrease cycle time and cap use by 10% on both MARS and LARS and let's test that.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#916 - 2013-01-26 05:46:53 UTC
If today hyperions perma tanking 2-3k DPS, how we will be counter them tomorrow?

You have to think about it.
NetheranE
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#917 - 2013-01-26 05:58:28 UTC
Edward Pierce wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Active armour tanking also requires you to get injectors, fortify your cap, increase your grid etc. .. but it is true that the basic skills to use the repairers and get rudimentary resist mods require less time to train than shield ditto you just won't be able to tank so much as a gnat without all the secondary support skills.

Which applies for active shield tanking as well.

You can arguably do without the cap boosters by using an ASB, but keep in mind that shield tanking requires more active hardeners than sub-BS armor tanking, and is therefore more dependent on good cap skills just to keep your resists up.

More training is never a popular thing to implement, but let's not come up with fake reasons why it "shouldn't" be done.


What you completely missed is that armor tankers are REQUIRED to train their compensation skills, so thats 4 rank3 skills that MUST be trained to be effective.

Shied tankers can literally forget those until they are +50mil SP and lose practically no effectiveness in their ships.

Shield: 9
Armor: 10
Multipliers? Strongly in favour of shield.
GG.
PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#918 - 2013-01-26 05:59:49 UTC
2CCP Fozzie
What about skill (Let say Plating upgrades) reducing PG demands of armor plates? Rank 3-4, 5% per level.
I guess that it will be good idea (Especially because in reality i can not understand how peace of metal consumes energy P)
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#919 - 2013-01-26 06:07:11 UTC
Vizvig wrote:
If today hyperions perma tanking 2-3k DPS, how we will be counter them tomorrow?

You have to think about it.


The same way you do now, a few nuets.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#920 - 2013-01-26 06:14:47 UTC
Akturous wrote:
Good start, now increase the base repair amount by 10% and decrease cycle time and cap use by 10% on both MARS and LARS and let's test that.


Far too large of a buff imo. Cap usage and faction/dead space progression should be the next step.