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CCP: New players should have guidance
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Joneleth Rein
#41 - 2013-01-24 23:28:55 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
Joneleth Rein wrote:
No More Heroes wrote:
A good alliance will have mentors available for newbees. Perhaps new players should inquire of these things when joining? You are right though that this is not a solo game and most players who try to play solo will either quit or are casual masochists. The sandbox demands that players provide the things that players need and not developers.


I'm gonna paraphrase a goon cause he was right. This is actually the case right now and it actually fits better in the sandbox. Corps/alliances assigning their own mentors (which they do) to help people learn the game. I'd be game for some corp ui changes that provoke and help all corps assign mentor roles or something more akin to the corp's mentality(which they already do through their own means).


I think what the main point here is that we need the tools to facilitate this. Build an official mentoring system, both freelance and within the corporate structure so that new players can find those mentors easier.

Perhaps CEOs can reward the mentors if this sort of thing was being tracked.


Bingo. Otherwise like the guy above you said. Some guy will abuse it to hell. It's easier to manage internally and by the player's discretion.

Spider Pig! Spider Pig! Does what a Spider Pig does.. Can he swing? From a web.. No he can't. He's a pig.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#42 - 2013-01-25 00:01:43 UTC
EvE is a sandbox mmo-rpg, some people should really stop thinking like themeparkers.

The Tears Must Flow
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-01-25 00:24:50 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
And yet over the course of the last 10 years hundreds of thousands of actual human beings have figured out exactly how to do that which you can not figure out on your own. What does this tell you?

It tells me the problem is the "individual" and not the "environment".

CCP keeps talking about (paraphrasing) "trying to lower the barriers while not taking away from the "complex/hard core" nature of the game ie easy to learn-hard to master".
I personally think it's a fool's errand. EVE the product is like any real life community, you can keep it small and thus nice/efficient but not meeting it's "full potential", or you can "lower the barriers, open it up" to more people (more subscriptions and such) and turn it into a lowest-common denominator Ghetto.

Suburban towns in the United States have learned this lesson: They changed their zoning codes to allow the building of "for rent" apartment complexes ("lower barrier to entry" than true home ownerships) and expanded public transport in hopes of gaining boons from increased tax revenue because more people would be living in the city limits and thus subject to city taxes....only to find out that they ended up spending all the new tax revenue AND MORE on public safety expenses because the kind of people who live in the easier to afford housing require much more attention from police and fire/rescue services (which are super expensive).

Make EVE easier to get into and you let in all these fair weather MMO players who destroy MOST other MMOs, the whining, crying , gimmie gimmie/cater to me types who don't have the attention spans required to play EVE in the 1st place.

Say no to the Ghettoization of EVE.


I will have to admit. I can play Dwarf Fortress and I consider EvE hard.

I kind of take issue with your public transportation as an example as it has nothing to do with inner city crime. Afluent people do move to cities because of public transportation. Most European nations have massive amounts of public transportation and yet have lower crime rates than United States. Secondly you are assuming poor people are naturally criminals, but I realize if I get into this that it has nothing to EvE so let's talk about that.

If CCP doesn't bring in new players it can't maximize it profits because vetern player do eventually quit over time.

They probaly have particular devs devoted to trying to figure out on soley to get new players.

They don't need to make WoW or even change the current game even.

They just need a better system of teaching new players on how to play. There are dedicated groups like EvE-UNI and EvE Voice Help's that try to help new players.

I think the key thing CCP should do is get new players in voice interaction (not just typing) with old players to show them the ropes. These team speak channels are really helpful to new players and I wish I had known about them instead of spending 100 hours dicking around trying to figure the game out.

The game is hard. It doesn't need to be changed per se, but new players need to be directed to people who are eager to help them.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#44 - 2013-01-25 04:52:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
And yet over the course of the last 10 years hundreds of thousands of actual human beings have figured out exactly how to do that which you can not figure out on your own. What does this tell you?

It tells me the problem is the "individual" and not the "environment".

CCP keeps talking about (paraphrasing) "trying to lower the barriers while not taking away from the "complex/hard core" nature of the game ie easy to learn-hard to master".
I personally think it's a fool's errand. EVE the product is like any real life community, you can keep it small and thus nice/efficient but not meeting it's "full potential", or you can "lower the barriers, open it up" to more people (more subscriptions and such) and turn it into a lowest-common denominator Ghetto.

Suburban towns in the United States have learned this lesson: They changed their zoning codes to allow the building of "for rent" apartment complexes ("lower barrier to entry" than true home ownerships) and expanded public transport in hopes of gaining boons from increased tax revenue because more people would be living in the city limits and thus subject to city taxes....only to find out that they ended up spending all the new tax revenue AND MORE on public safety expenses because the kind of people who live in the easier to afford housing require much more attention from police and fire/rescue services (which are super expensive).

Make EVE easier to get into and you let in all these fair weather MMO players who destroy MOST other MMOs, the whining, crying , gimmie gimmie/cater to me types who don't have the attention spans required to play EVE in the 1st place.

Say no to the Ghettoization of EVE.


I will have to admit. I can play Dwarf Fortress and I consider EvE hard.

I kind of take issue with your public transportation as an example as it has nothing to do with inner city crime. Afluent people do move to cities because of public transportation. Most European nations have massive amounts of public transportation and yet have lower crime rates than United States. Secondly you are assuming poor people are naturally criminals, but I realize if I get into this that it has nothing to EvE so let's talk about that.

If CCP doesn't bring in new players it can't maximize it profits because vetern player do eventually quit over time.

They probaly have particular devs devoted to trying to figure out on soley to get new players.

They don't need to make WoW or even change the current game even.

They just need a better system of teaching new players on how to play. There are dedicated groups like EvE-UNI and EvE Voice Help's that try to help new players.

I think the key thing CCP should do is get new players in voice interaction (not just typing) with old players to show them the ropes. These team speak channels are really helpful to new players and I wish I had known about them instead of spending 100 hours dicking around trying to figure the game out.

The game is hard. It doesn't need to be changed per se, but new players need to be directed to people who are eager to help them.


Forum ate my post, damn, not gonna retype tonigh,t be back tommorow lol
Aston Martin DB5
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#45 - 2013-01-25 05:43:08 UTC
Stopped reading after the "learning curve is too great" comment. Definitely a veteran player/dev alt. The only thing that has held the game back over the years is player progression and skill points. People want to stay logged in and play for something and isk just isn't cutting it for majority of players that I know.
Zol Interbottom
Blimp Requisition Services
#46 - 2013-01-25 06:24:30 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
And yet over the course of the last 10 years hundreds of thousands of actual human beings have figured out exactly how to do that which you can not figure out on your own. What does this tell you?

It tells me the problem is the "individual" and not the "environment".

CCP keeps talking about (paraphrasing) "trying to lower the barriers while not taking away from the "complex/hard core" nature of the game ie easy to learn-hard to master".
I personally think it's a fool's errand. EVE the product is like any real life community, you can keep it small and thus nice/efficient but not meeting it's "full potential", or you can "lower the barriers, open it up" to more people (more subscriptions and such) and turn it into a lowest-common denominator Ghetto.

Suburban towns in the United States have learned this lesson: They changed their zoning codes to allow the building of "for rent" apartment complexes ("lower barrier to entry" than true home ownerships) and expanded public transport in hopes of gaining boons from increased tax revenue because more people would be living in the city limits and thus subject to city taxes....only to find out that they ended up spending all the new tax revenue AND MORE on public safety expenses because the kind of people who live in the easier to afford housing require much more attention from police and fire/rescue services (which are super expensive).

Make EVE easier to get into and you let in all these fair weather MMO players who destroy MOST other MMOs, the whining, crying , gimmie gimmie/cater to me types who don't have the attention spans required to play EVE in the 1st place.

Say no to the Ghettoization of EVE.


I will have to admit. I can play Dwarf Fortress and I consider EvE hard.

I kind of take issue with your public transportation as an example as it has nothing to do with inner city crime. Afluent people do move to cities because of public transportation. Most European nations have massive amounts of public transportation and yet have lower crime rates than United States. Secondly you are assuming poor people are naturally criminals, but I realize if I get into this that it has nothing to EvE so let's talk about that.

If CCP doesn't bring in new players it can't maximize it profits because vetern player do eventually quit over time.

They probaly have particular devs devoted to trying to figure out on soley to get new players.

They don't need to make WoW or even change the current game even.

They just need a better system of teaching new players on how to play. There are dedicated groups like EvE-UNI and EvE Voice Help's that try to help new players.

I think the key thing CCP should do is get new players in voice interaction (not just typing) with old players to show them the ropes. These team speak channels are really helpful to new players and I wish I had known about them instead of spending 100 hours dicking around trying to figure the game out.

The game is hard. It doesn't need to be changed per se, but new players need to be directed to people who are eager to help them.


this game is easy are you insane, lets see you manage a 10 year fort with 350 dwarves at 1 FPS while demons from hell invade while your few dwarves fight to the bottom to kill their leader

"If you're quitting for the 3rd time you clearly ain't quitting" - Chribba
shadowcolt
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-01-25 07:25:58 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Rambunctious wrote:
Thoughts?

Sounds like you have too high expectations of yourself or that you are trying too hard. Maybe you get side-tracked, lose focus of your own ideas, follow others and allow them to dictate your game and then don't learn much from it.

Don't expect other players in a game to teach you how to play it. Rather realize that playing the game is how one teaches oneself. Put your own learning above others and only when you make progress do you follow others. If you don't make a progress then you are following the wrong players.


Would you mind giving a new player to linux some help? :P Tried to contact in game but not possible. Could really use some help.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#48 - 2013-01-25 08:31:11 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
EvE is a sandbox mmo-rpg, some people should really stop thinking like themeparkers.


Maybe Eve should start thinking more as a themepark when it comes to NPE.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Docter Daniel Jackson
Fleetworks Training
#49 - 2013-01-25 09:55:08 UTC
Its not about making the game easier, but giving the tools to help players understand the game better.

Some times people don't have the luck of finding corps that are going to hand teach them every little thing in the game. We all ask is a better system to get people into the game and move in the right places that they wish to play in.

Unless people are scared others might become better with a game that teachers players better. I should not have to bug other players on how to play a game, the tools should be in the game already.

Not asking to dumb the game down just asking for the game to teach players systems they need to know to play the game.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#50 - 2013-01-25 14:09:29 UTC
Aston Martin DB5 wrote:
Stopped reading after the "learning curve is too great" comment. Definitely a veteran player/dev alt. The only thing that has held the game back over the years is player progression and skill points. People want to stay logged in and play for something and isk just isn't cutting it for majority of players that I know.


Which is why I'm glad EVE doesn't do that, folks like that shouldn't be in EVE in the 1st place. EVE is about interaction and conquest, not grinding to "get to the next level" like some ADHD hamster on crack.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#51 - 2013-01-25 14:13:09 UTC
Docter Daniel Jackson wrote:
Its not about making the game easier, but giving the tools to help players understand the game better.

Some times people don't have the luck of finding corps that are going to hand teach them every little thing in the game. We all ask is a better system to get people into the game and move in the right places that they wish to play in.

Unless people are scared others might become better with a game that teachers players better. I should not have to bug other players on how to play a game, the tools should be in the game already.

Not asking to dumb the game down just asking for the game to teach players systems they need to know to play the game.


You are, exactly, asking for the game to be dumbed down, you just might not realize it. ANY amount of more hand holding is dumbing the game down, and if a player can't be arsed to put in the effort needed to get to where they are going, they should be playing an easier game instead.

It's not a matter of luck, its a matter of will, or trial and error, and of learning to accept defeat in order to win (and deserve) greater things. Without being aware of it, some of you guys are suggesting a watering down of that which makes EVE great and fairly exclusive.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-01-25 14:26:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mayhaw Morgan
Picture this: 1000 goons sit shooting a POS or TCU (or whatever they shoot), only to do it again and again and again . . . and they don't even bother to live in the place they "conquered" and they don't get any profit from doing it, to the point where they need other, non-goon characters to even be able to have some spending ISK.

Are you telling me these guys are all Albert Einsteins and Gary Kasparovs of EVE Online? Fuggedaboudit.

Hell yes, people need guidance. Otherwise, they end up quitting or being someone elses' minion or just sucking royally at this game. To suggest otherwise is the same thing as saying you should sit a kid down at a chess board and make him play until he learns or quits, and if he quits, he must be an idiot. Well, that's idiotic. And, to expect the kid to clairvoyantly know every resource available and be able to evaluate what is good and bad information about the game of chess . . . again, idiotic.

Some suggestions:

1. Remove Help and Rookie Help
- They scroll too fast and it makes it hard to discuss anything at length. People should be using their corp channel as their primary resource. There is not as much continuity of personnel in the Help channels, so its hard to figure out who to trust for information. People should be conditioned to search for information and analyze, rather than go to a "Help" channel and be spoonfed the answer.

2. Merge the rookie NPC corps (State War Academy, Center for Advanced Studies, Pator Tech, etc.) with the regular NPC corps (Caldari Provisions, The Scope, Native Freshfood, etc.).
- Bittervets have knowledge. Rookies have enthusiasm. Their separation is artificial and, even admitting that noobs need to be quarantined at first for their own good doesn't justify it, because the first major mistake many noobs make is joining a corp too early. Then, no matter what they do, they are now out of their element. As for veterans, it's not fair to them to deprive them of the opportunity to teach someone about the game or to see the game anew, through someone elses eyes or . . . hell, just to recruit some fresh meat for their grinder. I truly believe the wall between noobs and veteran players is a detriment to this game.

3. Make players choose whether to initially spawn in high sec, low sec, or null sec, just like they have to choose which race, sex, bloodline, etc. Give them a little bit of information about each option and let them play with the idea in their head, and then maybe give them some tips on how to change the home of their medical clone so, when they can't hack it in null, they have the ability to get to high sec without 403953490 poddings. Maybe those spawn points could be something else for the alliances to fight over and maybe many more players would live stay and live in null if that were the case.

4. New NPC corps: Sisters of EVE (exploration), Interbus (transportation), CONCORD (law enforcement/PVP), Outer Ring Excavations (mining), etc.
- People want to group themselves by what they do, but they don't necessarily want to be subjected to the authority, hazing, exploitation, bewilderment, etc. that comes with finding and joining a specific player corp. Grinding standing to +5 or +8 or whatever with these corps/factions in order to join them will give newer players a more concrete path to walk, and it will give established player corps that do those same activities fertile ground to find recruits.
Dave Stark
#53 - 2013-01-25 14:33:55 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
EvE is a sandbox mmo-rpg, some people should really stop thinking like themeparkers.


Maybe Eve should start thinking more as a themepark when it comes to NPE.



hi, here's a themepark, now you're done with it.. well it's totally irrelevant because this is a sandbox not a themepark! would make the NPE totally pointless.
KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#54 - 2013-01-25 14:59:29 UTC
All of this information is available via the EvE community (blogs, podcasts, websites, forums, wikis etc.)

Another recurring theme from people who come to this game is the fact that the EvE community is so dedicated to the game. CCP has created the Universe and the players are making of it what they want. More control/regulation by CCP would drain that community involvement. Why should there be 50 separate blogs about how to be an industrialist in EvE if CCP tracks all new players through the "right way" of doing it?

IMO, You can't really play EvE successfully without spending time outside the game learning. That's one of the core concepts CCP has successfully built...the community. That community exists primarily outside New Eden. Encouraging new players to stay in-game and shutout the EvE community would be a mistake.

That said, I do like some of the ideas presented above regarding merging some of the NPC corps channels. Keeping new players cordoned off for too long has a net negative effect.

KB

Dum Spiro Spero
flakeys
Doomheim
#55 - 2013-01-25 14:59:57 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
My roommate tried to get into EVE University twice and both times they lost his application.



It's the only one that ever turned me down when i applied to join them a year or so back.I wanted to 'help' wich appearantly was really odd that one joins a corporation with the only motivation to offer help in any way or form.

Aye go figure Blink

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-01-25 16:54:26 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Forum ate my post, damn, not gonna retype tonigh,t be back tommorow lol


Well... We don't have to talk about urban planning if you don't want to

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#57 - 2013-01-25 16:59:44 UTC
EVE Uni, FW and red vs blue are all good for learning. Goons and test also run their own training.

Honestly a nub is a great thing as they can be moulded into whatever you want and they are fearless.
Nefariuos Intent
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2013-01-25 17:20:27 UTC
It is not just new players, heck old timers try and fail to stay engaged in this game.

Not sure what CCP can do to keep folks playing Eve consistently/constantly.

Most old timers tell of multiple leave of absences, loggin in just to set skill cues, etc.

Most of the time our TS is full of folks playing WoT, LoL, Minecraft, etc. not Eve...

despite the fact that we live in a C4 WH with nice sites to run, PI, great PVP opportunities....

...folks can barely be bothered to fuel our POSs.

One key is a good cummunity, ie. voice server full of folks you want to log in daily and hang with whether playing Eve or other games - good luck finding one.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#59 - 2013-01-25 17:37:15 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
EvE is a sandbox mmo-rpg, some people should really stop thinking like themeparkers.


Maybe Eve should start thinking more as a themepark when it comes to NPE.



hi, here's a themepark, now you're done with it.. well it's totally irrelevant because this is a sandbox not a themepark! would make the NPE totally pointless.


Creating initial paths for new players to learn the different aspects of Eve, doesn't make Eve a themepark nor does it take away from the "sandbox" aspect either. Using the themepark's method of a structured NPE could be used to improve player retention and lessen the learning cliff this game has.






CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Rambunctious
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-01-25 19:03:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Rambunctious
I think Brooks might be the only one who gets what i'm trying to say. I am NOT trying to make this a themepark or take away from the sandbox. I'm simply putting steps on the sandbox which children can either use or decide not to use. All i'm saying is people are looking for mentors and can't find any because it's such a big universe with many people being very abrassive to the newer players. Let people who want to help have an easier way to help.