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Scamming new players.

Author
Corey Fumimasa
Perkone
Caldari State
#121 - 2013-01-24 22:21:59 UTC
Maxpie wrote:
Did the scam occur because the kid mis-read the isk amount in the trade window, or was it the trade window bug/trick (if that even still works)? If the latter, then the kid should be reimbursed and the scammer punished. Abuse of a faulty interface is not a legitimate scam imo.

I don't know what the details were.
Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#122 - 2013-01-24 22:31:19 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Rath Kelbore wrote:
Google Voices wrote:
So, if I read this correctly, which is unlikely.....

New player gets a plex to sell, gets scammed by some player.....

Technically, the scammer stole $15 from a kid, I wonder if it's actionable as petty theft?


Cool




I hope you're trolling. By that way of thinking, every time someone blows up my ship I can take legal action against them. Derp

I feel sorry for the guy if(pretty big if)he's telling the truth, but scamming is part of the game. Also, it's not that hard to figure out that if you're putting a plex in a trade window, and the isk amount the other character has put in is ZERO, you probably shouldn't be expecting to get paid.

It's not CCP's or anyone's responsibility to make sure that people don't do stupid ****. By clicking accept on the trade window you are accepting whatever is in that exchange window. Same with the market, same with contracts.

If i were the OP, and I truly felt bad about what happened and new the person to be telling the truth, I'd just buy them a plex and show the other side of the EVE community to them.


The kid left and his name got lost in the help scroll. He is one case and I feel bad about that, but giving him isk wont fix what is a problem.

PLEX is not like other in game items, it needs different management tools is all. An auction where ftp players can bid a certain amount of ISK for a block of gametime. They would put the ISK in escrow, and if someone wanted to buy ISK they could look at the market and accept one of the bids, probably the highest.

Bids more than 5 or 10% below the mean would not even have to show up. And that market window should be different from the regular market window to emphasize the fact that you are dealing with real money on a secure account page.

Whatever they decide to do there's no good reason for this sort of thing to continue.






Look, I'm sorry you feel bad, I sympathize with the victim in the same manner I sympathize with a noob that gets his first battleship blown up on accident or whatever, but your whole way of thinking about this is incorrect.

As soon as you redeem PLEX it is exactly like every other in game item. It is able to be sold, bought, traded, contracted, scammed, exploded, dropped, ect. Maybe that should be made more clear when you are purchasing plex if it isn't already(I haven't bought plex with dollars in awhile).

The system for a plex auction you are describing is EXACTLY what the market does already with the exception of it being "different" than the regular market window. 5 - 10 percent below top price obviously shows up, but you can sort by price so that isn't an issue.

You're right in that there isn't any good reason for this sort of thing to continue. That reason being people should be intelligent/diligent enough to not get scammed. It's not like anyone forced him to not take the time to understand what it was that he was doing. He didn't get tripped, slip, then fall onto the accept button. It's very much his own fault.

If I misread a contract and give someone a billion isk for one tritanium, should that be dealt with by CCP. You'll say no of course not, but plex is different. Well what if I bought a bunch of plex, sold that plex for isk, then gave a billion isk for a tritanium piece? According to your thinking should I not get my money I spent on the plex back??

Hopefully you see how your logic unravels?

EVE is the only MMO worth playing for more than a few weeks due to the fact that there are pretty real consequences to your actions. Sometimes people get taken advantage of, there's nothing to be done about it without ruining what EVE is. If you still feel that something needs to be done, then I suggest you do something about it, instead of asking CCP to change the game to your way of thinking without consideration to other people's thoughts.


I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.

Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#123 - 2013-01-24 22:35:20 UTC
Hay guys, I just started today, what's with this scam going on? Don't want to get ripped off so early in my career.
Corey Fumimasa
Perkone
Caldari State
#124 - 2013-01-24 22:37:46 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Quote:
Fair enough. Would you have any problems if PLEX were removed as an in game item? Assuming that there is another way to use ISK to pay for game time.


For me no, But for others yes. They could not trade it for ISK on market when it would be removed, for as much ISK as the player is willing to pay for it, that's important, And players could not loot it, nor steal it.
It should stay as game item. Important game item.


So your just here as an advocate for all those players who will be hurt if ISK is no longer a lootable or stealable item.

There's plenty of big important items that can be stolen or destroyed in game. In fact I think a hard version of ISK would be great, a way to get around paying corp taxes maybe, make em in 100k blocks that can be looted or destroyed. I bet no one uses them. The only reason you see PLEX out and about is because the people that buy them from CCP do not have a very good understanding of the game.

As for the markets controlling the price of game time I'm sure there is a way to do that without the vulnerabilities of PLEX.

I personally do not care for the practice of buying in game currency, but for those who want to participate it should be an option.

Once they have the ISK in their wallet then all bets are off. From that point in time they are subject to all the double your money navy issue raven scams in the game.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#125 - 2013-01-24 22:38:14 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Hay guys, I just started today, what's with this scam going on? Don't want to get ripped off so early in my career.

Jita contracts you see spammed in local are the best and reliable.

There's also doubling your isk, but those are a bit riskier.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#126 - 2013-01-24 22:41:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Quote:
I personally do not care for the practice of buying in game currency, but for those who want to participate it should be an option.


There is fair option, buy PLEX for real money, sell it for ISK.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#127 - 2013-01-24 22:44:40 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Hay guys, I just started today, what's with this scam going on? Don't want to get ripped off so early in my career.

Jita contracts you see spammed in local are the best and reliable.

There's also doubling your isk, but those are a bit riskier.

Thanks! Off to Jita to double my ISK.
Max Doobie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#128 - 2013-01-24 22:47:47 UTC



His Mommy and Daddy bought it...anyone willing to be so careless with money obviously either has a lot of it or it wasn't theirs hat was lost.

I'm all for helping new players, but seriously...if he knows enough about EVE to know to buy PLEX and that he can sell it for ISK then he knows it has in game value and therefore should know not to just give it away.

In fact, I don't even think I buy this story. I think the kid was joking. There's noway in hell someone could be that stupid...


...and holy crap....Solstice Project has a conscience???

Starting to make me rethink my Atheism there....
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2013-01-24 22:50:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Max Doobie wrote:



His Mommy and Daddy bought it...anyone willing to be so careless with money obviously either has a lot of it or it wasn't theirs hat was lost.

I'm all for helping new players, but seriously...if he knows enough about EVE to know to buy PLEX and that he can sell it for ISK then he knows it has in game value and therefore should know not to just give it away.

In fact, I don't even think I buy this story. I think the kid was joking. There's noway in hell someone could be that stupid...


...and holy crap....Solstice Project has a conscience???

Starting to make me rethink my Atheism there....

Scoobydoobydoobydoo...

It's mostly those spreading hatred about others who are the actual sociopaths.
People like you, for example, who can't see the difference between virtual and real persona.

Shoobydoobydoo, you just make fun of you ...
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#130 - 2013-01-24 22:52:50 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Hay guys, I just started today, what's with this scam going on? Don't want to get ripped off so early in my career.

Jita contracts you see spammed in local are the best and reliable.

There's also doubling your isk, but those are a bit riskier.

Thanks! Off to Jita to double my ISK.


You can even triple it depending on wich scamm... I mean wich generous person is in Jita at the time.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#131 - 2013-01-24 23:03:45 UTC
If true then yeah I feel a little sorry for the guy, but at the end of the day a fool and his internet spaceship money are soon parted. Personally if it had happened to me I'd chalk it up to experience and slap myself for being a dumbass, just like I did when I got greedy and fell for a margin trading scam,

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#132 - 2013-01-24 23:05:00 UTC
if you don't want to be scammed then just sell GTCs through the timecode trading subforum since you're required to use the secure timecode transfer function for that anyway

or, you know, just sell your plex to buy orders or list them on the market

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Agustice Arterius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#133 - 2013-01-24 23:09:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Agustice Arterius
I was actually in chat when he told us about it. Regardless if it was a real occurence, or somebody being a troll for what ever reason, I think it's an interesting thing to talk about.

First, I'm surprised we are talking about it in the first place, surely there have been other, almost exact same instances taking place in the decade EVE has been around? If so, how were those handled? Or should they be handled differently?

Second, I don't know how somebody falls for this unless they are very confused about the mechanics of what took place. I highly doubt in any other game with a trading system, would a person freely give somebody an item on the promise of "I'll sell it for you". If a similar action took place in WoW, would blizzard really step in and right the wrong? If so, EVE isn't really hardcore...it just doesn't cater to retards like other games.

Thirdly, I'm fairly certain admins have said, on many occasions, that messing with rookies at all in the rookie systems are considered an offense. If this took place over contracts or what ever, does it fall under those rules? Should it?

Either way, I feel like a real life example of this is scamming money from a mentally handicaped person, which happens all the time, but is still horrible.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Noctis
Shoot First.
#134 - 2013-01-24 23:14:36 UTC
Simple fix:

WARNING: PLEX can be scammed, stolen, or destroyed the same as every other in-game item. CCP advises that you take the time to understand how the market works prior to redeeming and selling PLEX.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Corey Fumimasa
Perkone
Caldari State
#135 - 2013-01-24 23:20:46 UTC
Rath Kelbore wrote:

Look, I'm sorry you feel bad, I sympathize with the victim in the same manner I sympathize with a noob that gets his first battleship blown up on accident or whatever, but your whole way of thinking about this is incorrect.

As soon as you redeem PLEX it is exactly like every other in game item. It is able to be sold, bought, traded, contracted, scammed, exploded, dropped, ect. Maybe that should be made more clear when you are purchasing plex if it isn't already(I haven't bought plex with dollars in awhile).

The system for a plex auction you are describing is EXACTLY what the market does already with the exception of it being "different" than the regular market window. 5 - 10 percent below top price obviously shows up, but you can sort by price so that isn't an issue.

You're right in that there isn't any good reason for this sort of thing to continue. That reason being people should be intelligent/diligent enough to not get scammed. It's not like anyone forced him to not take the time to understand what it was that he was doing. He didn't get tripped, slip, then fall onto the accept button. It's very much his own fault.

If I misread a contract and give someone a billion isk for one tritanium, should that be dealt with by CCP. You'll say no of course not, but plex is different. Well what if I bought a bunch of plex, sold that plex for isk, then gave a billion isk for a tritanium piece? According to your thinking should I not get my money I spent on the plex back??

Hopefully you see how your logic unravels?

EVE is the only MMO worth playing for more than a few weeks due to the fact that there are pretty real consequences to your actions. Sometimes people get taken advantage of, there's nothing to be done about it without ruining what EVE is. If you still feel that something needs to be done, then I suggest you do something about it, instead of asking CCP to change the game to your way of thinking without consideration to other people's thoughts.



That is a well presented argument. And I agree with the idea that Eve should be a place that has real consequences for not being intelligent and diligent. I like the fact that it is unforgiving.

But the first rule of Eve is don't fly what you cant afford to lose. The problem with PLEX is that it forces inexperienced pilots to handle an in-game item that

a: they cannot afford to loose and

b: are not experienced enough to make intelligent and diligent decisions about.

This kid and many more like him will not send CCP any more money. That will cause the price of PLEX to go up. I'm surprised more of the ftp guys aren't up in arms about this. The only players who benefit from PLEX being an in-game item are scammers. They don't create content and they don't make Eve dark and gritty; they sit in station and screw up local. The game will be better without them.

It really comes down to what Epeen said, the PLEX program is taking money away from CCP in the form of lost deposits. Simple as that.

Demolishar
United Aggression
#136 - 2013-01-24 23:22:48 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Rath Kelbore wrote:

Look, I'm sorry you feel bad, I sympathize with the victim in the same manner I sympathize with a noob that gets his first battleship blown up on accident or whatever, but your whole way of thinking about this is incorrect.

As soon as you redeem PLEX it is exactly like every other in game item. It is able to be sold, bought, traded, contracted, scammed, exploded, dropped, ect. Maybe that should be made more clear when you are purchasing plex if it isn't already(I haven't bought plex with dollars in awhile).

The system for a plex auction you are describing is EXACTLY what the market does already with the exception of it being "different" than the regular market window. 5 - 10 percent below top price obviously shows up, but you can sort by price so that isn't an issue.

You're right in that there isn't any good reason for this sort of thing to continue. That reason being people should be intelligent/diligent enough to not get scammed. It's not like anyone forced him to not take the time to understand what it was that he was doing. He didn't get tripped, slip, then fall onto the accept button. It's very much his own fault.

If I misread a contract and give someone a billion isk for one tritanium, should that be dealt with by CCP. You'll say no of course not, but plex is different. Well what if I bought a bunch of plex, sold that plex for isk, then gave a billion isk for a tritanium piece? According to your thinking should I not get my money I spent on the plex back??

Hopefully you see how your logic unravels?

EVE is the only MMO worth playing for more than a few weeks due to the fact that there are pretty real consequences to your actions. Sometimes people get taken advantage of, there's nothing to be done about it without ruining what EVE is. If you still feel that something needs to be done, then I suggest you do something about it, instead of asking CCP to change the game to your way of thinking without consideration to other people's thoughts.



That is a well presented argument. And I agree with the idea that Eve should be a place that has real consequences for not being intelligent and diligent. I like the fact that it is unforgiving.

But the first rule of Eve is don't fly what you cant afford to lose. The problem with PLEX is that it forces inexperienced pilots to handle an in-game item that

a: they cannot afford to loose and

b: are not experienced enough to make intelligent and diligent decisions about.

This kid and many more like him will not send CCP any more money. That will cause the price of PLEX to go up. I'm surprised more of the ftp guys aren't up in arms about this. The only players who benefit from PLEX being an in-game item are scammers. They don't create content and they don't make Eve dark and gritty; they sit in station and screw up local. The game will be better without them.

It really comes down to what Epeen said, the PLEX program is taking money away from CCP in the form of lost deposits. Simple as that.



This is an exceptional case. Proof: There is a 5 page forum thread about it.
Corey Fumimasa
Perkone
Caldari State
#137 - 2013-01-24 23:31:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
People that buy PLEX to sell for ISK are probably pretty casual gamers. They are not going to spend the umpteen billion hours it takes to get good at this game. But their money is important to the game, its not going to "ruin the atmosphere" if they can come in, buy a few ships on a credit card and then go get them blown up. Hell maybe thats why I'm so BS about this, it would really help my KM ISK ratio if I had a chance to shoot at some of these guys.

So it helps the industrialists, and the PvPers and the Pirates, makes content for all of us. And the kids seem to enjoy trying even if they lose all the time. Hell they might even com back next month and buy another PLEX.

Why the hell people are supportive of the scammers is just beyond me. They can go infiltrate an enemy corp or do something challenging and interesting if they want to run a con. Why do we have a system that makes new players very vulnerable to them?
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#138 - 2013-01-24 23:33:33 UTC
What I learned from this thread is, people will believe anything someone tells them, as long as they mention the help channel.

Anyways...
I have a some choice property I'm trying to sell, I've got a few interested folks from mentioning it in the help channel; figured I'd throw it out here as well.
Demolishar
United Aggression
#139 - 2013-01-24 23:42:17 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Anyways...
I have a some choice property I'm trying to sell, I've got a few interested folks from mentioning it in the help channel; figured I'd throw it out here as well.


Does it come with a bridge?
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#140 - 2013-01-25 00:07:15 UTC
Andski wrote:
Scamming is allowed in this game and it hasn't hindered its growth.


There is no scientific proof on whether it does or not.

Statistically, chances are people have quit because they have been scammed, though.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server