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CCP: New players should have guidance

Author
Rambunctious
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-01-24 18:47:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Rambunctious
Hello all.

As a player who has tried and tried and failed to get into this game, I finally came to the realization of what went wrong. In most games soloing is OK. I understand that it is in this game as well, but the learning curve is just too great. I first came into this game and got into missions after lots of reading on how to do it. That went well because, well, it's pretty simple (atleast to get to level 4's, i'm still a noob so I might be wrong.) I never got into a mission alliance and it got boring. I tried pvping, got podded many times and never figured out what went wrong(LOL flying to lowsec looking for an even fight, i'm an idiot.). Even after reading tons of things about pvp I could not figure the mechanics and left for a year.

I came back, got into a nullsec alliance and flew out. I found someone friendly who taught me some things, but was always in fleets warping off with battleships and logistics. I was underskilled for flying anything decent, got bored ratting in null and I joined RvB right before I left again. I was frustrated with the game and didn't care about the game anymore. Another year later I came back to RvB. I decided I don't care about missions, rats or nullsec. I just want to figure out the mechanics of pvp in this game. I jumped in a tier 1 frigate and off I zoomed with the fleet. I was getting blown up quite a bit but I still wasn't figuring it out and was getting frustrated again.

About two days ago I met someone who has been changing the game for me. He doesn't only give me "loadouts," he asks me what the weakness and strengths of the loadouts are and why they are that way. We have flown out in a 2 man fleet looking for people to blow up. He explains what the people are doing, and why they are doing it. I am not where I would like to be, but i'm learning.

I've heard of people quitting right after the tutorial because they have no idea what to do (and you have too.) I know many veterans when new players ask them what to do after that they tell them, "well, whatever you want. It's a sandbox after all." I don't think that's the way to handle that question. I believe that we should have volunteers in different aspects of the EvE life. After the tutorial let them pick a mentor in different catagories (you can always go back and get more mentors in different aspects of the game.) Playing the game solo and reading about it is totally different than flying with someone who is SHOWING you what you've read about. (And the mentors don't have to really change what they are doing, just explain what they are doing and WHY they are doing it. But if they actually want to make a change and make a friend, show them around a bit and show them what they can do at the stage they are in.)

Cliffs:

-CCP should include a mentor program after the tutorial

-mentor program includes pvp, wormholes, missions, ratting, 0.0, trading, hauling, piracy, etc etc etc.

-all players can utilize the mentors and go back to them if they are interested in something else

-showing something what they've read about is alot better than reading it and doing it solo and not realizing what the hell is going on.


Thank you for your time.

Thoughts?
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-01-24 18:57:18 UTC
Rambunctious wrote:
Hello all.

As a player who has tried and tried and failed to get into this game, I finally came to the realization of what went wrong. In most games soloing is OK. I understand that it is in this game as well, but the learning curve is just too great. I first came into this game and got into missions after lots of reading on how to do it. That went well because, well, it's pretty simple (atleast to get to level 4's, i'm still a noob so I might be wrong.) I never got into a mission alliance and it got boring. I tried pvping, got podded many times and never figured out what went wrong(LOL flying to lowsec looking for an even fight, i'm an idiot.). Even after reading tons of things about pvp I could not figure the mechanics and left for a year.

I came back, got into a nullsec alliance and flew out. I found someone friendly who taught me some things, but was always in fleets warping off with battleships and logistics. I was underskilled for flying anything decent, got bored ratting in null and I joined RvB right before I left again. I was frustrated with the game and didn't care about the game anymore. Another year later I came back to RvB. I decided I don't care about missions, rats or nullsec. I just want to figure out the mechanics of pvp in this game. I jumped in a tier 1 frigate and off I zoomed with the fleet. I was getting blown up quite a bit but I still wasn't figuring it out and was getting frustrated again.

About two days ago I met someone who has been changing the game for me. He doesn't only give me "loadouts," he asks me what the weakness and strengths of the loadouts are and why they are that way. We have flown out in a 2 man fleet looking for people to blow up. He explains what the people are doing, and why they are doing it. I am not where I would like to be, but i'm learning.

I've heard of people quitting right after the tutorial because they have no idea what to do (and you have too.) I know many veterans when new players ask them what to do after that they tell them, "well, whatever you want. It's a sandbox after all." I don't think that's the way to handle that question. I believe that we should have volunteers in different aspects of the EvE life. After the tutorial let them pick a mentor in different catagories (you can always go back and get more mentors in different aspects of the game.) Playing the game solo and reading about it is totally different than flying with someone who is SHOWING you what you've read about. (And the mentors don't have to really change what they are doing, just explain what they are doing and WHY they are doing it. But if they actually want to make a change and make a friend, show them around a bit and show them what they can do at the stage they are in.)

Cliffs:

-CCP should include a mentor program after the tutorial

-mentor program includes pvp, wormholes, missions, ratting, 0.0, trading, hauling, piracy, etc etc etc.

-all players can utilize the mentors and go back to them if they are interested in something else

-showing something what they've read about is alot better than reading it and doing it solo and not realizing what the hell is going on.


Thank you for your time.

Thoughts?


I made it a bit easier to read without altering the content in any major way.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#3 - 2013-01-24 18:57:36 UTC
I certainly would love an official mentor program with some incentives at the end.

I help people in this sorta fashion all the time but finding the right people to mentor is hit and miss. And while there is always the certain level of satisfaction for helping people it's be nice to have a little compensation xD

The Drake is a Lie

Rambunctious
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-01-24 19:02:03 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
I made it a bit easier to read without altering the content in any major way.


Thank you. I edited the main based upon your amazing english skills! Smile
Anslo
Scope Works
#5 - 2013-01-24 19:04:11 UTC
What would be interesting would be COSMOS Agents who teach these things and who dispatch NPC ships to guide you through them. It could be a psuedo mission and an extension of the first training/newbie intro.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#6 - 2013-01-24 19:08:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Rambunctious wrote:
Hello all. As a player who has tried and tried and failed to get into this game, I finally came to the realization of what went wrong. In most games, solo is OK. I understand that it is in this game as well, but the learning curve is just to great. I first came into this game and got into missions after lots of reading on how to do it. That went well because, well, it's pretty simple (atleast to get to level 4's, i'm still a noob so I might be wrong.) I never got into a mission alliance and it got boring, tried pvping, got podded many times and never figured out what went wrong (LOL flying to lowsec looking for an even fight, i'm an idiot.) Even after reading tons of things about pvp, I could not figure the mechanics and left for a year. I came back, got into a nullsec alliance and flew out. I found someone friendly who taught me some things but was always in fleets warping off with battleships and logistics. I was underskilled for flying anything decent, got bored ratting in null and I joined RvB right before I left again. (But I was frustrated with the game and didn't care about the game anymore.) Another year later I came back to RvB, decided I don't care about missions, rats or nullsec. I just want to figure out the mechanics of pvp in this game. I jumped in a tier 1 frigate and off I zoomed with the fleet. I was getting blown up quite a bit but I still wasn't figuring it out and was getting frustrated again. About two days ago I met someone who has been changing the game for me. He doesn't only give me "loadouts," he asks me what the weakness and strengths of the loadouts are and why they are that way. We have flown out in a 2 man fleet looking for people to blow up. He explains what the people are doing, and why they are doing it. I am not where I would like to be, but i'm learning.
I've heard of people quitting right after the tutorial because they have no idea what to do (and you have too.) I know many veterans when new players ask them what to do after that they tell them, "well, whatever you want. It's a sandbox after all." I don't think that's the way to handle that question. I believe that we should have volunteers in different aspects of the EvE life. After the tutorial let them pick a mentor in different catagories (you can always go back and get more mentors in different aspects of the game.) Playing the game solo and reading about it is totally different than flying with someone who is SHOWING you what you've read about. (And the mentors don't have to really change what they are doing, just explain what they are doing and WHY they are doing it. But if they actually want to make a change and make a friend, show them around a bit and show them what they can do at the stage they are in.)
Cliffs:

-CCP should include a mentor program after the tutorial

-mentor program includes pvp, wormholes, missions, ratting, 0.0, trading, hauling, piracy, etc etc etc.

-all players can utilize the mentors and go back to them if they are interested in something else

-showing something what they've read about is alot better than reading it and doing it solo and not realizing what the hell is going on.


Thank you for your time.

Thoughts?


And yet over the course of the last 10 years hundreds of thousands of actual human beings have figured out exactly how to do that which you can not figure out on your own. What does this tell you?

It tells me the problem is the "individual" and not the "environment".

CCP keeps talking about (paraphrasing) "trying to lower the barriers while not taking away from the "complex/hard core" nature of the game ie easy to learn-hard to master".
I personally think it's a fool's errand. EVE the product is like any real life community, you can keep it small and thus nice/efficient but not meeting it's "full potential", or you can "lower the barriers, open it up" to more people (more subscriptions and such) and turn it into a lowest-common denominator Ghetto.

Suburban towns in the United States have learned this lesson: They changed their zoning codes to allow the building of "for rent" apartment complexes ("lower barrier to entry" than true home ownerships) and expanded public transport in hopes of gaining boons from increased tax revenue because more people would be living in the city limits and thus subject to city taxes....only to find out that they ended up spending all the new tax revenue AND MORE on public safety expenses because the kind of people who live in the easier to afford housing require much more attention from police and fire/rescue services (which are super expensive).

Make EVE easier to get into and you let in all these fair weather MMO players who destroy MOST other MMOs, the whining, crying , gimmie gimmie/cater to me types who don't have the attention spans required to play EVE in the 1st place.

Say no to the Ghettoization of EVE.
Rambunctious
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-01-24 19:09:01 UTC
Anslo wrote:
What would be interesting would be COSMOS Agents who teach these things and who dispatch NPC ships to guide you through them. It could be a psuedo mission and an extension of the first training/newbie intro.


There are some things that NPCs can't teach. If the player has questions about why the ships are doing something a certain way, the NPC can't answer it. NPC's can't teach the art of stringing players along in a faster ship then they have, coming back and blowing up the one who is pulling away. What ships are the merlin good against, and which ones should you avoid, etc. I'm sure the same goes for wormholes, probing, etc. I'm not sure because i've never done those things (although i'm interested in seeing them done.)
Rambunctious
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-01-24 19:16:26 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:



And yet over the course of the last 10 years hundreds of thousands of actual human beings have figured out exactly how to do that which you can not figure out on your own. What does this tell you?

It tells me the problem is the "individual" and not the "environment".

CCP keeps talking about (paraphrasing) "trying to lower the barriers while not taking away from the "complex/hard core" nature of the game ie easy to learn-hard to master".
I personally think it's a fool's errand. EVE the product is like any real life community, you can keep it small and thus nice/efficient but not meeting it's "full potential", or you can "lower the barriers, open it up" to more people (more subscriptions and such) and turn it into a lowest-common denominator Ghetto.

Suburban towns in the United States have learned this lesson: They changed their zoning codes to allow the building of "for rent" apartment complexes ("lower barrier to entry" than true home ownerships) and expanded public transport in hopes of gaining boons from increased tax revenue because more people lived in the city limits....only to find out that they ended up spending all the new tax revenue AND MORE on public safety expenses because the kind of people who live in the easier to afford housing require much more attention for police and fire/rescue services.

Make EVE easier to get into and you let in all these fair weather MMO players who destroy MOST other MMOs, the whining, crying , gimmie gimmie/cater to me types who don't have the attention spans required to play EVE in the 1st place.

Say no to the Ghettoization of EVE.


Yet most of the people in this game (i'm guessing) learned things from the players. They didn't figure it out on their own. I'm not for dumbing down this great game (I saw what that did to pre-cu star wars galaxies. It doesn't exist anymore.) I'm merely pointing out the people who want to get into the game and learn the mechanics of it will have somewhere official to turn. I know there is EvE university, but there isn't a popup at the end of the tutorial to get people into it. Not to mention, I don't think the same people who are playing games saying "loot 5 goblin toes and return to the arrow," will really take the time to learn the game. Most people i've known like that download the game and don't even make it past the tutorial.
Anslo
Scope Works
#9 - 2013-01-24 19:22:19 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


And yet over the course of the last 10 years hundreds of thousands of actual human beings have figured out exactly how to do that which you can not figure out on your own. What does this tell you?

It tells me the problem is the "individual" and not the "environment".

CCP keeps talking about (paraphrasing) "trying to lower the barriers while not taking away from the "complex/hard core" nature of the game ie easy to learn-hard to master".
I personally think it's a fool's errand. EVE the product is like any real life community, you can keep it small and thus nice/efficient but not meeting it's "full potential", or you can "lower the barriers, open it up" to more people (more subscriptions and such) and turn it into a lowest-common denominator Ghetto.

Suburban towns in the United States have learned this lesson: They changed their zoning codes to allow the building of "for rent" apartment complexes ("lower barrier to entry" than true home ownerships) and expanded public transport in hopes of gaining boons from increased tax revenue because more people would be living in the city limits and thus subject to city taxes....only to find out that they ended up spending all the new tax revenue AND MORE on public safety expenses because the kind of people who live in the easier to afford housing require much more attention from police and fire/rescue services (which are super expensive).

Make EVE easier to get into and you let in all these fair weather MMO players who destroy MOST other MMOs, the whining, crying , gimmie gimmie/cater to me types who don't have the attention spans required to play EVE in the 1st place.

Say no to the Ghettoization of EVE.


To the OP, and others who enjoy logical, none bigoted discourse, ignore anything Jenn aSide posts. They are so narrow minded and believe that everything is a black and white case (as a simpleton does) that it is useless to argue.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#10 - 2013-01-24 19:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Rambunctious wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:



And yet over the course of the last 10 years hundreds of thousands of actual human beings have figured out exactly how to do that which you can not figure out on your own. What does this tell you?

It tells me the problem is the "individual" and not the "environment".

CCP keeps talking about (paraphrasing) "trying to lower the barriers while not taking away from the "complex/hard core" nature of the game ie easy to learn-hard to master".
I personally think it's a fool's errand. EVE the product is like any real life community, you can keep it small and thus nice/efficient but not meeting it's "full potential", or you can "lower the barriers, open it up" to more people (more subscriptions and such) and turn it into a lowest-common denominator Ghetto.

Suburban towns in the United States have learned this lesson: They changed their zoning codes to allow the building of "for rent" apartment complexes ("lower barrier to entry" than true home ownerships) and expanded public transport in hopes of gaining boons from increased tax revenue because more people lived in the city limits....only to find out that they ended up spending all the new tax revenue AND MORE on public safety expenses because the kind of people who live in the easier to afford housing require much more attention for police and fire/rescue services.

Make EVE easier to get into and you let in all these fair weather MMO players who destroy MOST other MMOs, the whining, crying , gimmie gimmie/cater to me types who don't have the attention spans required to play EVE in the 1st place.

Say no to the Ghettoization of EVE.


Yet most of the people in this game (i'm guessing) learned things from the players. They didn't figure it out on their own.


Exactly (which is why I never said anything about "figuring it out on your own"). And so a person who can't be bother to make ONE FRIEND is not someone CCP should be worrying about.

I was introduced to this game by a friend In played Mechwarrior 4 with (we went on to play WoW together but I just couldn't dig that game at all and quit after a month). He started me down the road and i met new freinds who kept teaching me (and after 5 years are STILL teaching me).

But you somehow want to AUTOMATE something that should be left to human interaction and creativity. if that's not dumbing down the game, I don't know what is. EVE is an mmo, it should encourage MORE human interaction, not less.

Quote:

I'm not for dumbing down this great game (I saw what that did to pre-cu star wars galaxies. It doesn't exist anymore.) I'm merely pointing out the people who want to get into the game and learn the mechanics of it will have somewhere official to turn. I know there is EvE university, but there isn't a popup at the end of the tutorial to get people into it. Not to mention, I don't think the same people who are playing games saying "loot 5 goblin toes and return to the arrow," will really take the time to learn the game. Most people i've known like that download the game and don't even make it past the tutorial.


If you need a pop up to get to EVE University, you're not EVE University (OR EVE ONLINE...) Material. It's like saying Harvard is unfair because you don't get a pop up/auto invite when you graduate high school Smile
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2013-01-24 19:26:35 UTC
My roommate tried to get into EVE University twice and both times they lost his application.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

No More Heroes
Sanctuary of Shadows
Dock Workers
#12 - 2013-01-24 19:26:44 UTC
A good alliance will have mentors available for newbees. Perhaps new players should inquire of these things when joining? You are right though that this is not a solo game and most players who try to play solo will either quit or are casual masochists. The sandbox demands that players provide the things that players need and not developers.

.

Whitehound
#13 - 2013-01-24 19:27:04 UTC
Rambunctious wrote:
Thoughts?

Sounds like you have too high expectations of yourself or that you are trying too hard. Maybe you get side-tracked, lose focus of your own ideas, follow others and allow them to dictate your game and then don't learn much from it.

Don't expect other players in a game to teach you how to play it. Rather realize that playing the game is how one teaches oneself. Put your own learning above others and only when you make progress do you follow others. If you don't make a progress then you are following the wrong players.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
#14 - 2013-01-24 19:41:05 UTC
I agree that the tutorials are not the best tools to learn this game, however almost every question one can ask about eve can be found by doing a search on about any search engine. I think most people feel they should be spoon fed information and that drives me nuts. It's like at work when the secretary keeps asking me if I have this or that companies phone number. I'm like, listen, it's 2013, search engines have been around for a while now, do a search for it on the world wide interwebs if you want to find a damn phone number, stop asking me stupid questions.
Ildryn
Idle Guns.
#15 - 2013-01-24 19:47:09 UTC
While a mentor program sounds great on paper and in the press.

You would ultimately end up with dozens of noobs trained wrong by blow hards and stubborn asses.

(over powered this, that, and whine)

The mentor would have to be neutral and able to answer on a wide range of aspects of EVE.
These areas would have to be Mining, PI, FW, Missions, Pirates, Null, Scammers, Exploration, and Industry.

Also able to give advise as to fittings.
Gank/Tank. Yield/Protection.

In the end we need EVE UNI to step up and get these new players into their fold.
(blatant EVE UNI advert)

I have never been in EVE UNI but have fought them on a couple of occasions and know they have some very skilled and intelligent players.

I say remove NPC corps after a week or two and give them options for joining qualified high sec corps/alliances that fit their interests.

NPC corps are full of idiots. Having been in and out of them on numerous occasions in my corp hopping i have seen some
bad advice. This needs to stop.
Sara Mars
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-01-24 19:49:41 UTC
Maybe strategy games are not for you, then again EVE could use more miners. You learn by doing as in RL, CCP or the playerbase should not have to wipe your ass because you don't know how to warp from point A to B.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#17 - 2013-01-24 19:50:55 UTC
When I got started, I read a lot, and asked questions on the new pilot forums, but I agree that being shown something in person by somebody is extremely helpful.
Luke Visteen
#18 - 2013-01-24 19:51:35 UTC
In my humble opinion, the best way is to find a training corporation that is run by your fellow countrymen (or people who speak your first languauge, i.e mothertongue).

o7

.

Rengerel en Distel
#19 - 2013-01-24 20:13:32 UTC
The starter corps and rookie help are there for a reason ... to get you immediately into the social aspect of the game. You'll find out quickly who are the jerks and who are the helpers. You find out right away, that there are people who have nothing better to do with their time than to try and grief you. It's a great teaching tool that too many vets squash by telling everyone they need to get into a player corp ASAP.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Catalyst XI
A.G. Vulcan Stettin
#20 - 2013-01-24 20:15:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Catalyst XI
There are two types of eve players

Those who learn from experience.

and those who Learn from other people.

I went solo into lowsec 2 weeks into my eve career. I died a lot. got a few kills here and there. But the main thing is each time i fought somebody, if i died or not i still gained some sort of experience, for example learning to pulse mwd when orbiting after running out of cap, ect ect. each time i died i would dissect the fight in my head and think about what i did wrong and what my opponent did right.

Now some may say somebody could have told me those things, but i say to them, when your dad/mom/ whoever taught you to ride a bike for the first time did they spend anytime at all explaining how to turn the pedals, how maneuver with the steering wheel ect.? no ofc they didn't, they just sat you on the bike and let you figure it out. And the result? riding a bike becomes second nature becasue you figured it out yourself.

Pvp in eve is the same way. And the Hard way is still the best way, some people just cant handle that, usually becasue they dont want to dedicate that much time to it.

also im not saying i never learned anything from others, when i joined rvb for example, i learned a great deal from watching and fighting alongside others, but i never had anybody explicitly mentor me.
I always rather fight, then talk about how to fight.

some people are just so risk averse that they dont see the value in losing a fight, and are blinded by the financial setbacks of losing a ship.
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