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[Retribution 1.1] Armor Tanking 1.5

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Captain Semper
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#781 - 2013-01-24 15:46:16 UTC
Roime wrote:

1600mm II is the biggest buffer module in the game. It simply needs to come with serious drawbacks.

Yeah. But 2 LSE use less PG then 1 1600 and more CPU. Gives you more HP and not affected on your mobility.
You can say: "But its 2 LSE! They need 2 med slots!" Yes. But you need med slots only for tanking and prop. Points? Recons. So you free with low slot. DPS, nano, more working distance, PDS (that what do you think? boost your shield tank! I want med slot mod that boost my armor tanking)
Solo\ small pvp? Well instead of LSE you fit ASB.
And btw, I can't effectively fit 1600 on crus\BC becuase it its realy a lot of PG and i need fit worse turrets. Does shield tank crus\BC need fit worse turrets because they use BS mod for shield tanking? No. Balance? No.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#782 - 2013-01-24 16:08:42 UTC
And actually, the curves showed by someone very disapointed about them showed that LAAR+LAR was better between 80 and 120s than twin LASB, which require a lot of sacrifices to be fitted ; which mean that, infact, active armor will actually have a niche even if we exclude all the other parameters ! You can also see how the LAAR+LAR curve is very close to the alternated XLASB ; which show us how equivalent they are to sustain dps.

And as I said, people not using signature with shield kiting ships don't mean that signature is a meaningless parameter.

Also, most people here are completely ignoring the fact that you can triple armor rep a 6 low slot ships, but not triple shield boost a ship. Figures should not make you forget about reality.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#783 - 2013-01-24 16:11:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Captain Semper wrote:
And btw, I can't effectively fit 1600 on crus\BC becuase it its realy a lot of PG and i need fit worse turrets. Does shield tank crus\BC need fit worse turrets because they use BS mod for shield tanking? No. Balance? No.

Actually, yes they do. CPU is not an unlimited resource, and people do are complaining about it in the BC rebalance thread.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#784 - 2013-01-24 16:17:11 UTC
CCP Fozzie: Idea For you.


Armor tank FOR BS: Remote Armor hardner,
Shield tank FOR BS: Remote Shield hardner,

This Add a new layer to the what logistics can do, giving the possibility to prevent damage instead of healing the wounds...




Armor tank FOR LOGISTIC BS: Remote Armor Nanolink, by sharing nano-assemblers that constitute the armor in real time, it is possible to have the damage taken by a ship distributed.
Shield tank FOR LOGISTIC BS: Remote shield distributor, By shaping the shield emission it is possible to cover both ships with a single shield sustained by both, making all income damage that would be taken by a ship distributed.
Restrictions: Really short range module. Can only fit 1. Most 2 ships in the pool.


This would be interesting, this would add another layer to the role of logistics.The ships linked this way would share they strong and week points.
- Since the range of the module would be short, it would cap the speed of the group to the slowest.
- As this don't share resistances for the damage calculation, the weaker tank would be target, consuming faster the pool.
- As a ship already damaged gets linked, it would gain an instant buff to the HP, but would drastically lower the HP of the logistic ship.
- Good way to protect smaller ships. (Cover it with a BS shield, but it will not move far....)
- Good way to get protected. (Links to a capital, but if it enters triage/siege, you are at your own, and if it takes a DD...)
- If 1 Tank fail, both will. leaving the 2 linked ships unprotected
- Can make Interesting team combinations, (EA+Logi) (Full dps + Logi) (Logi+Logi)....

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#785 - 2013-01-24 16:20:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Roime wrote:
If you don't have any real arguments, and can't even post that zero-content in a civilized manner, I think it's actually you should stop posting.

1600mm II is the biggest buffer module in the game. It simply needs to come with serious drawbacks.




ALL buffer-oriented modules - this includes shield extenders - should come with serious drawbacks because they are so much better than active ones. Atm aside from cap active mods require CPU/grid in large amouts, that forms 2 types of drawbacks. Buffer mods have literally no drawbacks at all or - in case of plates - they are not that articulated and are even getting reduced (!?) in the upcoming patches. That's really weird, since instead of reinforcing one of the most basic game concepts - action and consequence - CCP is basically destroying it. ASB introduction - which brought us cap immunity - is a perfect example.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#786 - 2013-01-24 16:27:32 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:

HTFU. When someone speak from BS and BC your "real arguments" is how can fit a cruiser ?
1600mm it's a boss module for you and a joke argument for me, like you. :PPPPPPP



HTFU? Harden up like rick-rolled tungsten? But I am :) You are free to use some other modules on your ship then, 1600mm II gives 73.3K EHP to my favourite cruiser with one single slot, so I'll keep using it. After this buff it's just more agile <3

Quote:
Yeah. But 2 LSE use less PG then 1 1600 and more CPU. Gives you more HP and not affected on your mobility.
You can say: "But its 2 LSE! They need 2 med slots!" Yes. But you need med slots only for tanking and prop. Points? Recons. So you free with low slot. DPS, nano, more working distance, PDS (that what do you think? boost your shield tank! I want med slot mod that boost my armor tanking)
Solo\ small pvp? Well instead of LSE you fit ASB.
And btw, I can't effectively fit 1600 on crus\BC becuase it its realy a lot of PG and i need fit worse turrets. Does shield tank crus\BC need fit worse turrets because they use BS mod for shield tanking? No. Balance? No.


Have you tried to look at the ships as a whole? Ships are not born equal, some can downgrade guns and still do solid dps. Some won't be ultra tanky even if they used all their mids for LSEs.

I don't find for example this 1600mm imbalanced at all:

[Myrmidon, 1600mm]

Damage Control II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x2
Hornet EC-300 x5
Hammerhead II x3
Warrior II x4
Ogre II x2
Hobgoblin II x1

85K EHP
630 dps
slow as bunker full of bricks, but dual webs, so v0v

Fitting is compromises, and going for massive OVERSIZED module armor buffer means you opt for bigger buffer instead of speed. The sacrifices required to slap 1600mm are pretty minimal, armor BCs got grid.

I think this is balanced.

.
Elizabeth Brown
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#787 - 2013-01-24 16:32:31 UTC
Although I like the fact that armour tank is getting some attention. And I like the fact that I love to armour tank and therefore these changes will benefit me.... But, this is going to be so broken. Trip rep Hyperion will only need 2 reps. 1 normal, and 1 Ancil. And it will be the most rediculous thing you have ever seen,
Captain Semper
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#788 - 2013-01-24 16:38:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Semper
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Actually, yes they do. CPU is not an unlimited resource, and people do are complaining about it in the BC rebalance thread.

Well problem with PG is more often then problem with CPU (for me).

The major problem armor vs shield is a penalty. Armor rigs+plates significantly reduce your modility. And what "penalty" takes shield tanking? Sig? Speed>>>sig anyway.

What if shield rigs and SE would have scan res penalty? More shield is more powerful an elekromagnitny field or smth like that.

And what if armor rig and plates had agility penalty instead of speed.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#789 - 2013-01-24 16:39:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Apostrof Ahashion
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Burst tanking (ASB *spit* notwithstanding) is all about the oh-**** button, albeit slightly longer. The reason why it is sorely needed is evidenced by the prevalence of plates, more often than not supersized even if that takes fitting mods .. we need the ability to have access to that EHP without being forced to plate up, it will add a ton of variety and extra thought on the fits.


Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Killing ASB's does nothing for active tanking as that completely ignores the reason we need bursting in the first place: Population. Solo is rarer today than yesterday and average gang sizes will continue to increase as long as there are people to fill the slots .. higher population -> bigger gangs -> more dps -> buffering ad nauseum.


I am not sure i get this right, but if you think that active tanking should be buffed to make it better in bigger ganks i must completely disagree. If you buff it to that level you will kill solo/small gank pvp, you wont have enough dps to break the tank solo witch is silly. Plates and buffer are and should always be better in larger ganks/fleets. And you will have logies in larger ganks too so i dont really get this at all.

And the whole idea behind this is silly, having reps that repair more at the start of the battle, giving you more ehp and then slowly falling behind...... its like trying to make active tanking more like buffer tanking, just fit a plate and you have that approach. Whats the point? And its not like active tanking does not have its uses in some large gank situation. The whole idea of fitting reps in the first place instead of plates is that if you drag the fight enough it will give you more ehp that the plate, the logic behind specialized burst tank modules is at best flawed, but i would use a stronger word for it. Whats next, self regenerating armor plates?

Veshta Yoshida wrote:

There is a good chance that is why Fozzie started the thread, to get brain-stormed to make sure he didn't miss anything. Took us only a couple of pages to show that the heating rig might be a bit much for instance .. balancing core stuff like tanking is never easy

As for brainstorming and balancing the "burst" tank modules, go ahead and give it a try. ASB is in the game for quite some time and its still broken in every way. Ppl are fitting two of them for pve and getting better stats across the board on their maelstorms. MAARR repairs much more than MARII no matter how much time passes, and i guarantee you it will stay that way on release. It cant be done properly.
Mund Richard
#790 - 2013-01-24 16:40:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Ribikoka wrote:
Roime wrote:
If you don't have any real arguments, and can't even post that zero-content in a civilized manner, I think it's actually you should stop posting.
1600mm II is the biggest buffer module in the game. It simply needs to come with serious drawbacks.
HTFU. When someone speak from BS and BC your "real arguments" is how can fit a cruiser ?
1600mm it's a boss module for you and a joke argument for me, like you. :PPPPPPP
Him posting a cruiser in a BC/BS discussion wasn't the best.

If his point was that the 1600s are so good no one fits an 800, so the 800s needed another buff beyond what all the plates (including the 1600) needed, sounds fair to me.
The how/how much is something different.
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
And actually, the curves showed by someone very disapointed about them showed that LAAR+LAR was better between 80 and 120s than twin LASB, which require a lot of sacrifices to be fitted ; which mean that, infact, active armor will actually have a niche even if we exclude all the other parameters ! You can also see how the LAAR+LAR curve is very close to the alternated XLASB ; which show us how equivalent they are to sustain dps.

Also, most people here are completely ignoring the fact that you can triple armor rep a 6 low slot ships, but not triple shield boost a ship. Figures should not make you forget about reality.

So... a two-slot repper that outheals another two slot repper is dissapointing when one costs 4 times as much CPU, the other 4 times as much PG and has a PG drawback on the rigs and also taxes cap more... While the CPU one has all the lows open for DPS and fitting mods while the PG one does not, and only worries about cargohold?

Just fitting Neutrons, two reppers and a MWD on a Rokh and Hyperion in EFT I get the following spares:
(Using the same blasters to keep it more equal)
Rokh: 152/1406, 5 lows for damage/TE/fitting mods, 3 mids for resist/EWAR (two invulns and a point for instance?)
Hyper: 222/-956(+5%), 3 lows for resists/damage/fitting mods, 4 mids for EWAR/tracking, uses a rig to fit.

The Rokh has 30% more CPU, and after 1 Co-Proc it can fit a 3rd XLASB.
The Hyper has 5% more PG, and you need a second rig to fit another T2 LAR (since another LAAR is not possible, and I assume you don't want to use a low for a fitting module when a DC and two EAMNs are what I consider the bare minimum, and you still have no damage mod then).

(With 2 active tanking modules)
The Rokh gets no webs, but the tracking of the two is the somewhat similar (scripted TCs track better, else TE wins).
I could fit it with T2 invulns magstabs TEs without needing any more fitting mod or an implant. But it cannot really mount any web or cap booster without hurting the tank a lot.
The Hyper gets no damage mods, though wins on damage before the Rokh uses one (and it WILL, probably more than one, so the Hyper loses), falls short in range, ect. Cannot mount any damage mod without hurting the tank, needs a cap booster by default for the LAR.
Adding T2 mods what are usual for an armor ship, I went over the CPU by more than 5%


The killer part?
The Hyper needed a PG rig to add a second AR, a second PG rig for the third.
Adding a tanking rig reduces it's available PG... Roll Well, I believe with max skill it's tolerable for this particular hull.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#791 - 2013-01-24 16:40:43 UTC
Roime wrote:
Myrm 1600mm blabla


HAM Drake 96k EHP with 2x LSE ad 736 DPS
Oh wait tar, the LSE is not boss module!!!! Big smile
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#792 - 2013-01-24 16:59:57 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:

Example of idiotism.
And a 1600mm plate is a boss module ? Double facepalm.
Pls dont post anymore.



Constantly attacking people and / or throwing insults just about every post does not help the thread, or your credibility.

If you don't agree, or have a correction, break it down, and beat them up with your take on it, or your view. But please try to keep it civil. This thread so far is a great one with several different views, but its one that is being watched and read carefully by the Devs, and they are listening.

I'd hate to see it devolve into some troll flame fest just because you can not see someone elses view or disagree with it.

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Untouchable Heart
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#793 - 2013-01-24 17:27:21 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Ribikoka wrote:

Example of idiotism.
And a 1600mm plate is a boss module ? Double facepalm.
Pls dont post anymore.



Constantly attacking people and / or throwing insults just about every post does not help the thread, or your credibility.

If you don't agree, or have a correction, break it down, and beat them up with your take on it, or your view. But please try to keep it civil. This thread so far is a great one with several different views, but its one that is being watched and read carefully by the Devs, and they are listening.

I'd hate to see it devolve into some troll flame fest just because you can not see someone elses view or disagree with it.

~Z



Idiotism is idiotism, no matter how you trying with your alt.
The 1600mm plate is a normal module.
Jane Schereau
#794 - 2013-01-24 17:32:04 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Nikuno wrote:

1. Does it rep at the lower 3/4 level while it reloads or does it deactivate?


While reloading the module cannot cycle.


Maybe it should? Just to, you know, make it different from the ASB?
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#795 - 2013-01-24 17:34:04 UTC
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Rented wrote:

For the small small price of making the AAR even more mediocre.

An updated graph.

That's why you fit more than one armor repairer.



Ho yeah BRAVO ! -this man got it, instead of electrons you'll fit small neutrons§ Awesome (or not)


Roll

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#796 - 2013-01-24 17:41:10 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:

So... a two-slot repper that outheals another two slot repper is dissapointing when one costs 4 times as much CPU, the other 4 times as much PG and has a PG drawback on the rigs... While the CPU one has all the lows open for DPS and fitting mods while the PG one does not?

Just fitting Neutrons and two reppers and a MWD on a Rokh and Hyperion in EFT I get the following spares:
(Using the same blasters to keep it more equal)
Rokh: 152/1406, 5 lows for damage/TE/fitting mods, 3 mids for resist/EWAR (two invulns and a point for instance?)
Hyper: 222/-956(+5%), 3 lows for resists/damage/fitting mods, 4 mids for EWAR/tracking, uses a rig to fit.

The Rokh has 30% more CPU, and after 1 Co-Proc it can fit a 3rd XLASB.
The Hyper has 5% more PG, and you need a second rig to fit another T2 LAR (since another LAAR is not possible, and I assume you don't want to use a low for a fitting module when a DC and two EAMNs are what I consider the bare minimum, and you still have no damage mod then).

(With 2 tanking modules)
The Rokh gets no webs, but the tracking of the two is the somewhat similar (scripted TCs track better, else TE wins).
I could fit it with T2 invulns magstabs TEs without needing any more fitting mod or an implant. But it cannot really mount any web or cap booster without hurting the tank a lot.
The Hyper gets no damage mods, though wins on damage before the Rokh uses one (and it WILL, probably more than one, so the Hyper loses), falls short in range, ect. Cannot mount any damage mod without hurting the tank, needs a cap booster by default for the LAR.
Adding T2 mods what are usual for an armor ship, I went over the CPU by more than 5%


The killer part?
The Hyper needed a PG rig to add a second AR, a second PG rig for the third.
Adding a tanking rig reduces it's available PG... Roll Well, I believe with max skill it's tolerable for this particular hull.

And mid slots are obviously useless. You know, you don't need that much range when your target is scramed and webed.

Besides, fit your Rokh completely, and you'll see that even with electron you are short of CPU. Rokh cannot fit twinXLASB without a fitting mod. Hyperion can fit a rack of ions with two LARII without any fiting mod.

My point is that 2 XLASB are more comparable to 3 LAR than to 2, even considering fitting. It's easy to save a lot of PG by downgrading guns, but you save a lot less CPU in the process.

Now, the new drawback on the rigs will be rather harsh in this kind of fit, though if Fozzie look at the fitting requirements of medium and large reper, that will be fine.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#797 - 2013-01-24 17:52:24 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Captain Semper wrote:
And btw, I can't effectively fit 1600 on crus\BC becuase it its realy a lot of PG and i need fit worse turrets. Does shield tank crus\BC need fit worse turrets because they use BS mod for shield tanking? No. Balance? No.

Actually, yes they do. CPU is not an unlimited resource, and people do are complaining about it in the BC rebalance thread.


Do you know how much tank you get on a simple Sleipnir with 2xXL-ASB, without overheating those modules, no boosters and no implants or links?
And guess what, all you need is a T2 low slot mod an an implant to get enough CPU.

Tell me how horrible a ship is when you can active tank more than 5700 incoming dmg and still deliver 800dps? -hell just turn one on and it's already more than 2500 reps...

Just to finish with the CPU thing, NO it's not really a problem, if this was a real problem do you think Gallente would be able to fit shield mods and get the tank/speed/dmg they get?
Now pick any Shield tanking based hull and try to armor fit it with plates and active mods, then please share your feedback with us.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#798 - 2013-01-24 18:06:26 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Rented wrote:

For the small small price of making the AAR even more mediocre.

An updated graph.

That's why you fit more than one armor repairer.



Ho yeah BRAVO ! -this man got it, instead of electrons you'll fit small neutrons§ Awesome (or not)


Roll


Actually dual rep brutix fits very comfortably with the new rigs and the 2 reps...

Can't quite use Ions but electrons are fine.

EDIT: Also thats a pretty bad graph.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#799 - 2013-01-24 18:29:05 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Do you know how much tank you get on a simple Sleipnir with 2xXL-ASB, without overheating those modules, no boosters and no implants or links?
And guess what, all you need is a T2 low slot mod an an implant to get enough CPU.

Tell me how horrible a ship is when you can active tank more than 5700 incoming dmg and still deliver 800dps? -hell just turn one on and it's already more than 2500 reps...

Just to finish with the CPU thing, NO it's not really a problem, if this was a real problem do you think Gallente would be able to fit shield mods and get the tank/speed/dmg they get?
Now pick any Shield tanking based hull and try to armor fit it with plates and active mods, then please share your feedback with us.

Is it a problem with the Sleipnir or with th XLASB ? Chears lolautocanons. :-)
BTW, I cannot even approach the stats you are talking about without ganglinks... Don't fool you : I'm not talking about how ganglink are relevant or not, but for comparison purpose, they are rather meaningless.

BTW, you can get a rather good active tank out of an Absolution, even without the future AAR.

And YES CPU is a problem on almost any XLASB fit.
Mund Richard
#800 - 2013-01-24 19:04:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
And mid slots are obviously useless. You know, you don't need that much range when your target is scramed and webed.

Besides, fit your Rokh completely, and you'll see that even with electron you are short of CPU. Rokh cannot fit twinXLASB without a fitting mod. Hyperion can fit a rack of ions with two LARII without any fiting mod.

My point is that 2 XLASB are more comparable to 3 LAR than to 2, even considering fitting. It's easy to save a lot of PG by downgrading guns, but you save a lot less CPU in the process.

Now, the new drawback on the rigs will be rather harsh in this kind of fit, though if Fozzie look at the fitting requirements of medium and large reper, that will be fine.

No, midslots aren't useless, you need at least one person in fleet to have a web+scram, and maybe another to web once more.
Throw in one crazy-tank Drake or Prophecy, and it's done.
Plus the MWD/AB needs to go somewhere before you are scrammed and double/tripple webbed.
Joke aside. Midslots won't be useless still ofc, there is no ship that you couldn't fit 24+3 slots if it had infinite fitting. Roll

I did fit the Rokh completely with a rack of Neuts, two XL-s, and it fit with a Co-Proc.
I even wrote so.
Sure, it wasn't a good fit for solo, but a fair one for survivability+damage for a fleet.

Being able to save a LOT of PG by downgrading is a valid point.

You also said that 6 lows are enough for tripple-rep...
Rokh: even with Neutrons, it's only 1% above CPU with two Co-Proc, and fits with PG without a mod. Ions it can fit with the two CP, Electrons with 1 Co-Proc and a 3% implant.
Hyper: With Neutrons, a CPU and two powergrid rigs, it misses 1% CPU. With Ions it fits with one CPU rig (but no Cap Booster, see bold below). With Electrons, it simply fits. Wow.

The x3XLASB with it's capless tank runs dry with guns alone a bit over 10mins.
The Hyper runs dry in under 2 mins without any cap boosters, due to two reppers draining cap instead of zero.
Putting on a Heavy Cap Booster, Neutrons need 2 PG rigs, and some CPU magic (or an empty midslot, or many metas),
With Ions it fits after a PG and a CPU rig (and can maaaybe fit a tank rig as third one), cap life is worse (and now you have two kinds of charges needed beyond ammo), is surprisingly close to the Rokh in resists using a DC, wins in long term tank, but the difference is less than how much more damage the Rokh does in comparison, so the balance is still in the Rokh's favor.
With Electrons... It fits still, can use armor rigs, tracks well with tracking scripts, range is horrid, but I'm using small BS fleets with no logi and had shields with no point, so I deserve to have a battleship with under 6km optimal using void or under 4km with AM. Roll
If the Hyper tries to fit a MagStab instead of a DC, the Rokh outranges, outganks and outtanks it.
The Rokh's options for more tank is dropping the MWD for a SBAmp or invuln/EM field, and/or putting on an EM screen, Electron Hyper wins there with how it's PG is still not used up.


Was educational on the down or subsizing or whatever I should call it, just like a previous post in the BC thread on missile vs gun sustituting.
Thanks for making me do it lol.
The x2 XLASB with only one C-P still doesn't look horrible if someone else does the tackling. Roll

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.