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Time to Retire the Faction Navy

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Kramol
Abscondita Proficuo
#41 - 2013-01-24 10:35:05 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:

My priority always was making targets lose as much as ISK as possible, not just blapping random frigates.
But I also know that some people enjoy to have more traditional fights. I don't really see why it can't occur between outlaws and 'self-selecting' vigilantes in highsec without NPC police getting involved.

AND I'm talking about outlaws and vigilantes having more sustained contact that just hit and run volley ganks. As in, longer than 30 seconds.


Well that's all sounds good, but really I don't know why are you wining agen, headhunts avaliable, off-war prices are so low that any bum can afford it, and now you say that faction police must be removed because you whant to live more than 30 sec in gank?

Well that sounds like usual blackmail to any carebeer corp Lol

But if serious, if you can't gank in the empire you can always use exits to 0.0 and some brains - for example corp-spy to know where and wen some trader goes, to gank in low/null without getting poped yourself, no concord or police on your KB, but much more fun from a difficult operation... Never tryed that? Too lazy to do that? Can't work in a team with logists and make warp-off bookmarks to the dead-space gates or smth like that? I've seen like pvp aliance attacked Jita and they lived for 20 mins against concord and other pvp-ers because of good teamwork... So don't try to wine that faction police is too hard to live with.
MainDrain
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-01-24 10:37:08 UTC
I like the idea

Would still like to see some sort of presence at the system gates to make drug smuggling possible, be that small customs/concord ships for 0/5 up to BS in 1.0

Unless this system was built into the gate control system

I also think aggression from station guns/gate guns should also continue to be a factor to -10s so they cant hang around the undock. Additionally your standing to the faction/corp owning the station should effect whether or not the station guns attack you.
Kramol
Abscondita Proficuo
#43 - 2013-01-24 10:41:11 UTC
MainDrain wrote:
I like the idea

Would still like to see some sort of presence at the system gates to make drug smuggling possible, be that small customs/concord ships for 0/5 up to BS in 1.0

Unless this system was built into the gate control system

I also think aggression from station guns/gate guns should also continue to be a factor to -10s so they cant hang around the undock. Additionally your standing to the faction/corp owning the station should effect whether or not the station guns attack you.


Drug smuggling is not a problem, if you have proper skills to hide yourself and to find the short way from one side of the galaxy to another...
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2013-01-24 10:41:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Eugene Kerner
Posting in Golden thread.
Do not remove faction police...i would have to bring a webbing alt when I want to move Battleships through high sec.
Outlaws are used to tank additional fire while attacking other fleets. Just change flagging...so if a vigilante fleet member attacks a pirate fleet member, the whole vigilante- fleet gets a flag and the pirats can engage them in high-sec.
Then you would certainly see good fights in shiny ships AND we would probably get rid of our insane Corp bounty ( right now that would never happen)...I mean the bounty System would be supported as well.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
EvEa Deva
Doomheim
#45 - 2013-01-24 10:49:31 UTC
Dear Amarr overlords please pull back your navy so outlaws can roam free in your space they mean you no harm.

Dear local police please do not pull over the car with 30" rims, bass blasting, and smoke pouring out of the windows, the F the police bumper sticker was there when i bought the car.
Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#46 - 2013-01-24 10:50:04 UTC
NO WAI!!

In fact I think they should start sending faction navy task forces, complete with caps and supers, into lowsec to clean the place up a bit!!!


Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#47 - 2013-01-24 10:53:03 UTC
I think the problem lies here:

Sure, you can 'evade' Faction Police, even in Battleships - for the purposes of ganking, as long as your fights only last a few seconds. You might even get the odd kill vs 'random noob' vigilantes who engage you in highsec - if you can theoretically instapop them and warp off again before you get tied down by Faction police. Mind you, we are talking about pretty stupid vigilantes, here.

But the minute that you (as an outlaw) you settle in for anything more than just a quick volley gank.....perhaps you run into a vigilante who flies tanked Battlecruiser that you can't kill in 20 seconds or less.....its over.

If two or more PVP ships -with tackle, jocking for optimal range and transversal: ..NPCs spoil the fight with endless waves of ECM, webs, scrambling and extra DPS. Not exactly Concordokken - but enough to prevent pirates from even placing themselves in positions for a sustained fight.....

And when I say, 'fight' I don't mean pirates running around attacking everyone in highsec, like some of you seem to imagine.
I'm talking about outlaws being engaged by self-selecting highsec vigilantes, who WANT to fight these outlaws.

What I'm saying is this: if NPC cops weren't spoiling the fights, more outlaws would venture into highsec .....and provide more targets for highsec PVPers who don't feel like getting curbstomped by groups like 'the united' in lowsec.
FourierTransformer
#48 - 2013-01-24 10:57:24 UTC  |  Edited by: FourierTransformer
Currently, a tanked ship tackles one of your outlaw ships in highsec, game over due to combined deeps from vigilante+navy.

Under your system the outlaw might have a fighting chance. While I approve of this idea because it would add more player generated content to eve, I think it goes counter to what ccp intended (outlaws potentially having a harder time in empire which is true in the first case). Thus it most likely will not happen.
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#49 - 2013-01-24 11:05:59 UTC
The whole point of the Navy is to make life a pain in the ass for outlaws in high sec. Mechanic working as intended. All anyone has to do in High Sec to kill an outlaw is get a point on him and its basically over.... again .. working as intended.

The whole... outlaw able to fight a suspect and somehow this should made fair or some **** like that sounds like some sort of consentual carebear **** that makes my head hurt. Besides that it defeats the purpose of a sec rating.. might as well remove the whole system if your going to do something like this, because effectively that's what your doing.

Stupid idea rejected. Good day.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-01-24 11:09:00 UTC
wat? u wan get rid of concrd? no no no no no no no!





















Getting rid of faction navy would remove the restrictions on hauling illegal goods, like drugs, and slaves. What do you propose as an alternative, considering players could not be relied on to catch people hauling these goods, the way they get automatically caught now. Would you simply reduce the chance of having them get caught, but have them get concorded if they do?

Overall, I think this is a bad idea, and I enjoy the role the faction navies serve. That, and faction navies have a sovreign duty to protect their space. The lore DOES matter to some degree, to CCP.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#51 - 2013-01-24 11:15:23 UTC
No -10s already have more freedoms in Highsec then they should. Its called consequences for being blinky. In all honesty -10s shouldn't really be allowed to dock in Highsec, but the whining from that would be intense.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#52 - 2013-01-24 11:15:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
As it is I can't really screw very low sec status characters over in highsec because they can't really do anything interesting in highsec. People flying around thrashers ganking because that's all they can do doesn't give me much to work with. I mean it's pretty hard to make someone ragelog by killing a thrasher, but it's pretty easy to make someone ragelog by killing a loki.

So if you're a carebear and you think those Belligerent Undesirables with super low sec status need to suffer then you should be in favor of letting them fly around in highsec so that the local Belligerent Undesirables can shoot at them. I mean you'd have people you don't like shooting at other people you don't like, that's win win.

Also faction war might actually be a bit more like an actual war between factions. I keep seeing federal defense union hulks and PVE battleships sitting AFK on busy highsec gates and nobody shows up to kill them, in a regular highsec war those dudes would get killed pretty quickly, it's seems absurd to me that FW characters can't hunt down and kill eachother in highsec with the same level of freedom from NPC interference that I can in my regular war, those folks mutually consent to a war, but I get more freedom to murder in my non-consensual war.

More space violence in highsc please, less NPC interference in PVP activity, blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne, etc.
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#53 - 2013-01-24 11:16:54 UTC
Moving from General Discussion to Features & Ideas Discussion.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2013-01-24 11:18:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Actually, that would be a step towards direction CCP's PR tried to imply pre-retribution.
I don't see how this will hurt anyone really (enlighten me?).

Though the faction navy will probably stay there anyways (just not caring about sec status) for the sake of making NPC standings mech non-obsolete Big smile

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Intaki Niteblade
Quafe Commandos
The Obsidian Front - Reborn
#55 - 2013-01-24 12:04:34 UTC
Lore is important. As people have mentioned, the sovereign empires have a duty and interest in protecting their space from space criminals. Don't get me wrong I like pew as much as the next guy, but CCP has been trying to push consequences for your dastardly actions. If that happens to be harassment by the Police, I think it is only fair. It should also be noted that, as was pointed out, a little bit of effort to get your sec status back up is another one of these consequences for your actions and really isn't all that hard to do.

"Whoop Whoop thats the sound of the space police" - Permaband
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#56 - 2013-01-25 03:22:38 UTC
Removed some off topic posts. Please keep it on topic, civil, and insult free. Thank you.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#57 - 2013-01-25 06:08:33 UTC
But I like taking on the amarr and faildari navies in hi-sec.

So -1.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#58 - 2013-01-25 06:52:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Short Version:
Remove Faction Navy. Keep Concord. Allow outlaws to move in highsec. Crimewatch vigilante gangs can pew with them, without NPCs interfering. Everyone wins.

Ever since Crimewatch 2.0, much has been made of 'giving highsec dwellers the tools to fight crime'.
And as far as that goes, I don't have a problem with it. Player interaction is certainly better than NPC/PVE police.

But layering 'player-enforced' crime control on top of an already rigorous NPC crime control regime? It only makes highsec more exciting for the criminals and vigilantes. Meanwhile, the average missionrunning/mining/hauling ISK grinder is safer and more insulated than ever.

Now, hints are occasionally dropped from CCP that Concord may be nerfed in the future. And I'd like to see that - perhaps rolling response times back to what they were back in 2008. But I don't believe it.

Concord has steadily ramped up in power over the last several years, as recently as last spring. I've never once seen a change in the other direction...and I don't believe I will.

However......CCP could make a minor change to NPC law enforcement. - mutually beneficial to outlaws and highsec vigilantes alike.

Remove the Faction Navy.

What would this mean?
Outlaws could move in highsec without NPC interference.

Of course, they are still outlaws - and ANY individual (or groups) could engage them at will. (Kind of like a permanent suspect status)

AAND....the outlaws could actually fight with the vigilantes without NPC police coming along and ending the fight prematurely.

As Faction Police are currently implemented, there really isn't any way to have a fight between an outlaw and a vigilante.
Any fight that lasts more than 15 seconds or so - NPCs crash the party. This means that outlaws are almost NEVER in a position to be engaged by anyone in highsec. As a result, outlaws are almost exclusively used for suicide ganking juicy targets in highsec.

(And ganking isn't really 'a fight'. Nor is blowing up a -10 gank-fit alt that is hopelessly locked down by NPCs or Concord)

The only practical effect of the NPC police is to keep the player base separated - which prevents actual fights from ever occurring. Pirates stay in low sec, because their fights in highsec are only allowed to last about 15-20 seconds. Highsec vigilantes are too scared to venture into lowsec to fight with organized pirates on a level playing field.

Should the Faction Police be removed - or seriously dialed back, I see lots more targets for highsec vigilantes, as plenty of -10 pirates that would be willing to risk getting dogpiled - just to have some fights and excitement.

***And YES, Solstice Project, before you chime in, I know you enjoy blazing around in a highsec in a dessie, blapping frigates that engage you before faction police show up - or otherwise ganking pods and shuttles. But I think it would be a significant improvement to the game if outlaws could risk larger ships in highsec - and have sustained fights without silly NPCs showing up and jamming/scramming/webbing/shooting them - basically rendering the outlaw helpless and making the fight pointless.

Without NPCs, Vigilantes would still have all of the advantages. They choose when to engage and benefit from numbers. (While outlaws can't even be RR'd - so an outlaw 'fleet' would be quite limited in capabilities)

And outlaws would still be Concorded if they engaged any targets illegally....

So, who loses......if NPC police are turfed???
Vigilantes get more targets coming to them - with highsec advantages. Outlaws get to fly more than frigates in highsec and get more fights.

So how about it CCP? Crimewatch 2.0 is a thing. Suspect flag is a thing, and highsec dwellers want to kick some ass. Lets give them some RED targets and take down some of these pointless barriers to player interaction.


IM ok with this however I have one question:

1. Faction Police are a huge part of "Faction Warfare" What do you propose concerning this, so as not to interfere with the FW peoples gameplay?
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#59 - 2013-01-26 03:15:21 UTC
MainDrain wrote:
Would still like to see some sort of presence at the system gates to make drug smuggling possible, be that small customs/concord ships for 0/5 up to BS in 1.0.


If a player scans a ship and it has drugs in cargo, the target gets a suspect flag. How's that sound?

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
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