Wormholes

Nope that's pretty much all of them... Confirming they are all of WH space now, and once they don't like something your personal CSM rep gets to ask CCP for a stealth nerf without speaking to all other WH space folk.

MOST people ARE happy the way things are. What do you guys really want to be able to do that you can't? I get that dread/moros blapping is your problem. What is fixing this going to accomplish? All I'm getting is that 4 or so large wh corps will be able to have the 50+ man fights without getting their t3s killed too quickly. I find this kind of ironic because on of the arguments offered is that the only counter is more stuff. I got news for those complaining - 50+ man t3 fleets is more stuff. Honestly - if your corp is too big to have fun in wh space then adapt. Split up into several wh, take over Delve, corner the moon goo market. These are all good ideas for you. Stuffing 100 active pilots in your system and trying to 'fix' a moros so the rest of us can't depend upon it to counter your 50 man fleet is kind of... well... self centered I guess.

You're asking CCP to change dreads so the dread fleets have to set up accordingly??? Set your fleet up accordingly to what the dread fleet is defending its home with. I'm hearing that folks should have to adapt to what you want to bring and adjust to what you want to do. This whole argument is just kind of crazy.

If you want a ship that tracks like a titan, then go get a titan.

A fair question.
Basically, take this situation: AHARM collapse our static, we connect to EXHALE. both sides have similar numbers on. Great, fight time.

ok, so how do we engage? exhale are no scrubs, they know how dreads work and have many dread pilots. we are no scrubs, we know how dreads work and we have many dread pilots.
given this, with the current mechanics whichever party jumps into the other one will get obliterated by the home team's dreads and generally what happens in this situation is both sides stare at each other for a while and then the WH is collapsed by whoever gets bored first.

I have seen this situation personally and heard about it more often than I can count with many various c5/6 corps.

Note that I picked exhale at random and in no way mean to make it sound like they wont take a fight. they will.
Theyve jumped into AHARM's system several times and, like I said, did get dread blapped accordingly.
liekwise, AHARM has jumped into hostile dreads too and also go blapped.

You've been around enough to know that all fights are not meant to be. There is a mass limit on all wh. You can't fit enough of anything through a single wh to engage an entrenched home system that has a bunch of capital ships and support. That only makes sense. You shouldn't be able to do what you want to do. You're looking to dial up a random 'good fight worthy' wh, jump in and have a LARGE/EPIC good fight that is fair equal and balanced.

You can make all dreads disappear after their first volley and there still isn't enough mass on a 3 bil wh to go into the aharm home system and get a fair fight if the system comes to life to defend itself. It's not dread blapping that is frustrating you - it's the wh mass restriction combined with some systems that are well defended. Don't blame dreads for a well defended home system and sensible piloting. It's the mass limits.

We've all chosen to live in the part of eve that has those mass restrictions. They are a restriction. Believe me I know. I moved from a c5-c5 (3 bil mass) to a c5-c3 (1 bil mass). There are days that it just kills me. That one billion bottleneck has prevented more than one good fight 3 wh down a chain. I chose to move to that wh mostly to fly with folks I know in real life. Does it put a damper on my pvp desires? Yeah all the freakin' time. But it's a choice I made.

Your 3 billion wh connecting you to exhale (your example) will never allow you to go in and kick their patoot. They are big enough and good enough that 3 billion isn't enough to allow that to happen. You wanna go in and kick THAT patoot - you plan, sneak in some dreads, carriers, scanners and blah blah blah - we all know the deal. Not all wh home systems are day trips.

If you and yours really crave those big epic dread smashing fights - you have to go to low/null. It won't happen in wh space via a single random wh encounter. Sorry man, you can't beat math. I will caution everyone that messing w/ the mass mechanic of wh space could have some really crappy far reaching affects. Please resist the urge to come up with ways, modules, ideas.... and so on to subvert the mass mechanic in wh.

Jack, I respect you and your valuable input to a lot of threads in this forum.

But the above given reasoning for a dread nerf shows the dilemma of this discussion.
You will never ever get a "fair" fight in that situation, simply because people always strive to get the best out of a situation and want to win *... therefore bringing blapping dreads is just a symptom of the dilemma and not the initial reason.

(*since W-space has a lot of unwritten rules, why don't you guys simply introduce a way to have "fun fights" when you roll into each other, like excluding ship types (mainly caps) and / or limit pilot numbers)

The whole thread reflects the various aspects why some people would like to have blapping dreads nerfed:

• no "fair" fights possible
• only counter is bring more pilots
• OP performance of a "single" ship
• ....

In the end most of the arguments boil down to very subjective opinions, embedded in the context of flying in big powerful WH corps / alliance.

Serendipity made a great point about Wh mass being the real reason for a lot of the described "problems".

Personally I don't see the need to change the mechanic of dread blapping, balancing dreads (aka maiking some usefull and others less OP) is an issue though

If there's a particular issue with the tracking/dps of the moros that makes it outclass the others, then that needs addressing.

As far as the "but if I bring a cruiser size fleet dreads shouldn't be able to wipe the field" line of thought... I dunno, I don't necessarily see that as being an issue with the dreads themselves, because the cruiser fleet needs to be webbed and painted to absolute hell and back by the support fleet for this to happen. I guess I feel like it's more of a numbers thing - they brought a boat load of webs and painters to allow this, and the only solution is to bring more of your own stuff, so you can get rid of the webbers and painters (or even the dreads) fast enough.

Stay under the radar, bro. It's hard enough to get good fights...

If the Moros is OP compared to the rest of the Dreads, the Moros needs to be nerfed.

If people have found an effective fleet comp that revolves around intended game mechanics, then find a counter. All is working as intended. Move on to something else (POSes seem to be popular this time of year). Really, if you're going into a large fleet fight where people have had time to set up at the engagement site and are skilled at what they do, expect losses. This will be true whether they have point/paint/web/blap fleet comps or anything else. And with this discussion, we are talking large-ish fleet fights; a Moros + Loki won't hold off much by themselves.

If people have found an effective fleet comp that revolves around a single OP ship, they will have to scramble to find a new comp when/if the single OP ship is nerfed. Therefore, nerf the OP ship, and then move on to something else (did I mention POSes?).

Like others here, I'm not seeing the problem, except for a Moros that is out of line with other Dreads ... a situation that can be fixed as a line-item in a patch note. Worry about things that are real problems or that need real work, not minor balancing issues.



You both want a good, enjoyable fight, right? Wormhole corps live and die by reputation. Agree to a subcap fight on your connecting hole; larger fleet jumps to meet the smaller fleet.

"Arranged fights? Are you daft?" Maybe, but if you want a good fight that requires strategy and skill, and not just a gank, it's better than being blue-balled all night. The next time you meet, it might be different.

If you just want a gank, then, well, pray the other guy jumps into your system *shrugs*

There is nothing wrong with Dreads (except maybe some balance for the Nag)..... Dreads can't do anything against Cruisers if the Dreads does not have the neccesary support. In cases were Dreads are actually able to shoot cruisers its generally due to pilot error than anything else. If the problem comes down to not being able to bring the right people against a Dread heavy fleet, well, isn't that the primary problem then. As mentioned earlier in this thread, jam/neut/killl their webbers, and those dreads, even high numbers, are practically worthless. If you are not able to do that, well then you have prolly engaged something you were not able to handle anyway.

It all comes down to intel, if you bring a fleet into someones entrenched system without the proper force to handle their "blab fleet" Then its you that fail and not the ship that is over/undertuned. Blap Dreads is the flavour of the months for Wspace, and the go-to comp for home defense in most cases, but they only last until someone finds the proper counter, and believe me its there.

Dreads represent a home field advantage that is completely acceptable. The Moros needs to be in line with other dreads whether its nerfed or they're buffed, but that's it.

The real problem is that apparently people lack the self control not to drop their whole cap fleet on some people just looking for a fight. You're ruining it for yourselves and have no one else to blame after the fights dry up. Oops? Not CCP's problem, nor the rest of EVE's.