Player Features and Ideas Discussion

As many of you may know the T2 bpo lottery was stopped a while back and none has been seeded since then. What I’d like to bring your attention to is the amount of bpo's that are currently inactive ingame due to players either taking a break from the game or just moved on to others.

Recently I have seen a few bpos on sale / sold and let me just say that they are mediocre t2 bpos that in the past barely sell for more then 5-7bil at most. In todays market seems to be around double if not triple that which to me clearly reflects on todays market. There is a limit to how much one can make on them from invention but at the same time said owners dont have the market competition that they once had in the past from those who also had the same bpo.

What I would like to propose is perhaps a little data collection on ccp's part if possible to check on the current industrial jobs ingame since most t2 bpo owners do monthly builds well at least the ones I know and used to know before they quit. The data collection in essence is just a quick summary really to see how many of each type of bpo is in use today.

I understand that there may be the odd misinformation with regards to a few of the module bpo's since the profit margin on them is rather minimum rate and sales are really slow hence those bpo's being held for collection purposes only and not used for production.

I know this data will help to show how many are in use ingame today regardless of how long you do the data search for and if possible I’d like to also propose a few more seeded into the game to cover for those bpo's not in use anymore from inactive accounts.

Or.........

Another option would be that to do a weekly seed of random t2 bpc's with limited runs and positive ME levels of which players would spend a certain amount of RP points to obtain them from the agents ingame.

I understand some players may be against this while others would be up for it but all thoughts and views are welcome :)

People who buy BPO's are playing the game in years not months or days like most of us.

While i'm not sure thats the way to go.

That would seriously **** over the assholes who keep ******* with the T2 prices and i like anything that fucks them over.

Actually its the inventors who control the pricing of t2. Roll back that clock waaaay back. And it was jsut t2 bpo's walking the earth. many items were wtf priced. I remember bitter vets bittering about the good ole days of 50+ mil isk covert ops II cloaks. it took inventors going well while it be nice to make 40 mil profit a sale...ima sell for say 15 mil and do it the walmart way....make profit off of bulk sales a few mil per unit.

That t2 bpo owner does not like this. he has billions to make jsut to break even. He'd actually like the cheap migrant farm worker types of eve to leave the indy part of the game. has the bpo all nice and + me....but there are several inventors isk warring. If his calculations had him breaking even in 2 years....the isk warring jsut adds months if not years till ROI is met. Not saying feel bad for him, I am saying if he could sell say hacs with uber profit per unit he'd make it so.

And as I always say in these threads...don't like markets with t2 bpos don't invent in them. You'd think the lack of t2 bpos would solve all your problems. It does not. Only edge you got is a -1 me bpc and sometimes that isnot much of an edge.

I remember less fun times. Like seeing the market tank in the 3 days some damn t2 bs' were in the oven and sold for way less than I planned on. And I had no t2 bpo owner to blame for this. A little bit of ass gaping isk warring action from my fellow inventors the culprit.

Here are some old links to stats you might be interested in:

Article on T2 BPO's with summed up stats.
The ultimate source of the stats. <-- You have to go back to Mar/Apr-2012.
This long thread has a lot of info and some misinformation...

Here are a few words for thought:

1.) From the Inventors Side (which I am biased towards):
Profitability: T2 BPO's allow for the production of a t2 item without the cost of invention, and without the poor ME & PE levels produced from invention. Any item manufactured from a t2 BPO will be CHEAPER to produce, and hence MORE PROFITABLE to sell, than an item created via invention... People often claim that invention is more profitable, but in direct comparison terms, this is just flat out wrong...

Multiplicity: A T2 BPO can only produce a limited number of items / day, while invention allows you to "focus" on a single item and mass produce them with parallel production jobs. I've seen claims that this means makes invention more "profitable", which is mostly false. If you had 10 t2 BPO's for the item you wanted to mass produce (which would then provide an appropriate comparison), the T2 BPO production would be vastly more profitable...

Adaptability: Since T2 BPOs are more profitable at producing their specific item, T2 BPO Producers typically focus on producing that special item, every month. Since Eve Market swings create large variations in the profitability of individual items, this business practice is usually NOT the most profitable business operation. If you are just looking to maximize profits you need to continually adapt your manufacturing processes to "whats in demand". For example: Last month Medium Remote Armor Repper II's were in very high demand (and very profitable). This month, it's a different module. To clarify what I'm stating... there are two business paradigms: Focus on a single item and produce it as efficiently as possible vs Adapt your production to maximize profits. In general, t2 BPO holders use the former paradigm, which is where they have a irrefutable advantage.

2.) From the t2 BPO Side:
Investment: If, if, if... The past is the past, and we need to focus on the present (and future). Today, T2 BPO's are no longer some "lucky drop" that players received by lotto; instead they are extreme investment items, both in terms of cost to ascertain and the time before you get a return on your investment. Any talk to remove BPO's from the game also needs to provide some recompense to people that invested years worth of play to acquire them.

Volatility: A person with a T2 BPO has a large-to-enormous amount of wealth tied into their BPO, and needs to continually manufacture that specific item for years to ever achieve a positive ROI. However, the EvE market has many volatile swings, as CCP is routinely adding / re-balancing ships, modules, and ammo, which ultimately has a major effect on the supply/demand curves. This volatility creates deviations in the profitability of items, which ultimately alters the time it takes for a t2 BPO to provide a return... In the worse case, these variations devalue the T2 BPO itself, resulting in an expensive investment that either ties up a large portion of your wealth that can only be liquidated at a loss.

3.) The Real Numbers:
I grabbed a few selected stats from the above links (these are almost 1 year old, and obviously supply/demand has changed):

In March 2012, the percentage of select modules, ammo, and drones produce from invention:

99.12% of Scourge Fury Heavy Missiles,
93.95% of Gyrostabilizer IIs,
89.77% of 1400mm II,
87.34% of 425mm Rail II,
86.81% of 220mm Vulcan Autocannons II,
82.00% of Tachyon II,
74.23% of Torpedo Launcher II.
55.61% of Hobgoblin II,
34.87% of Warrior II,
9.91% of Hornet II,
9.65% of Acolyte II,
6.00% of Rocket Launcher II,

In March 2012, the percentage of ships produce from invention:

90.23% of Hulks,
84.17% of Mackinaws,
67.85% of Sabres,
65.01% of Wolves,
44.58% of Cerberus,
27.60% of Curses,
22.16% of Pilgrims,
7.07% of Absolutions,
6.00% of Eagles,

What do these stats show? They show you what items have such a high demand that T2 BPO's just can't meet. These are the items that inventors can make lots of profit on and produce to their hearts content. It also shows items that have low enough demand that T2 BPO manufactures can saturate the market and undercut invention-based competitors.

Is this a problem? From my perspective... In general, no... T2 BPO's ultimately bring the consumers the cheapest goods on the market... If they can't meet the markets demand, or if they "overprice" their items, then inventors infiltrate the market and drive prices down again. Market forces even things out...

Does this mean, as an inventor, I can't produce Absolutions for profit? Moreless... that's exactly what it means...

Is this fair to the inventor? It is somewhat unfair because inventors are debatably not on an even playing field... but so what... the inventor isn't what matters... it's what is fair to the consumer that matters!!!!

Is this fair to the consumer? The consumer wants items as cheap as possible, and as convenient as possible. T2 BPO's are the pinnacle of "produced as cheap as possible". Inventors keep T2 BPO holders from price gouging, and makeup for production demands that T2 BPO holder's just can't perform.

In conclusion: There is no direct issue with T2 BPO's in terms of production.
Advice: If you manufacture via invention (like I do), be smart about what you manufacture, and you'll make plenty of isk!
Additional thoughts: I personally would like all BPO's to have some more vulnerability when in use...

my example is not bad i wanted to show something that was simple and active which would make a profit on both. if i wanted to do one where an invented item would not make any profit and the builder would either be at a loss or would have to hold the items for a while i would of chosen the module "100mm Reinforced Steel Plates II" which is one of a few items which can not be invented to make a profit

to save yourself time in putting in prices and items for said module vist http://www.eve-cost.eu/calculator and search for that module and you will see for yourself.

yes those bpo's sitting on inactive accounts are a good thing for inventors and an even better thing for those who own T2 bpo's since it allows them to have less compatition if they sold their items cheaper then inventors could make a profit on and still be able to sell the bpo's at a hiked up price due to low numbers of them around. I also know that they may be baught out and resold for a little more yes but it'd still be quick isk into their pockets to get mats and such to build more.

gizznitt thank you for posting those url links, the article on t2 bpos was interesting as were the following comments.