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Firetail - Slicer.
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Matthew Serenes
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-01-15 00:35:32 UTC
Ok. So after an interesting response in a former post of mine, I did have the epiphonous moment in which I realised BS's weren't useful for L1 missions. So I bought an imperial Slicer, which has been very effective. However, I now ask you for your opinions; should I switch to a Firetail? What pros are there vs. cons? What are the best setups for PvE with it? On a side note, if you want to talk about a build, keep it T1 preferably, and preferably no faction ammo either.

Cheers Forum.
~Matt
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#2 - 2013-01-15 00:38:52 UTC
I'm of the opinion that the Slicer is straight up superior to the Firetail.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#3 - 2013-01-15 00:51:18 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm of the opinion that the Slicer is straight up superior to the Firetail.

-Liang


Still biting...
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#4 - 2013-01-15 00:58:38 UTC
Slicer is pretty much a one trick pony. It does said one trick very well though.

Firetail is more versitile but often you can find something else that does the job better for less. But it is cool to fly!

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-01-15 01:08:55 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm of the opinion that the Slicer is straight up superior to the Firetail.

-Liang


Taoist Dragon wrote:
Slicer is pretty much a one trick pony. It does said one trick very well though.

Firetail is more versitile but often you can find something else that does the job better for less. But it is cool to fly!


That one trick doesn't exactly translate into pve... If anything, I'd imagine the damage type selection alone makes Firetail superior to... kiting and lows. That said, does any of it even matter in lvl1s? Might as well use a dessie or something.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#6 - 2013-01-15 08:29:42 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm of the opinion that the Slicer is straight up superior to the Firetail.

-Liang


Taoist Dragon wrote:
Slicer is pretty much a one trick pony. It does said one trick very well though.

Firetail is more versitile but often you can find something else that does the job better for less. But it is cool to fly!


That one trick doesn't exactly translate into pve... If anything, I'd imagine the damage type selection alone makes Firetail superior to... kiting and lows. That said, does any of it even matter in lvl1s? Might as well use a dessie or something.



Slicer has better tank/projection. So yes it is better at pve.

That being said you will do lvl 1's for such a short time you're better off just getting a dessie and then moving for a cruiser.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2013-01-15 09:52:29 UTC
^^ what he said, a destroyer will just do better... any of them. Id prob recommend the thrasher:

[Thrasher, New Setup 1]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
Stasis Webifier II
Medium Shield Extender II

200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I

Around 300dps with a tracking and range bonus, once webbed you wont need to worry about tank before everything's dead...

No Worries
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#8 - 2013-01-15 16:10:07 UTC
Slicer will be always better with regards to damage than a Slicer, as long as your enemy doesn't has his best resists against EM/Therm. Firetail clearly performs better if you fight Angel ships (Weak Resist is Exp) or if you have to perform under Neutralizer pressure.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-01-15 16:44:56 UTC
a rail catalyst or cormorant will beat thrasher at lvl1 and lvl2. the problem is almost always distances and that's where rails shine. but frankly, anything that can fit a weapon can deal with lvl1 missions, so i would advise OP tto just get whatever he thinks looks coolest.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-01-16 06:20:59 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
a rail catalyst or cormorant will beat thrasher at lvl1 and lvl2. the problem is almost always distances and that's where rails shine. but frankly, anything that can fit a weapon can deal with lvl1 missions, so i would advise OP tto just get whatever he thinks looks coolest.


its this.

The thrasher is better at many things but level 1 missions it is not. the rail catalyst is better because of range, ROF and fitting.

You want your range to be in the 20's optimal with dps over a hundred, but you dont want your weapons to cycle too slowly because you will kill things too fast.

Sure its nice to oneshot a frigate at 30 with artillery but the rest of the frigates will close before you've cycled your extremely slow guns . and then your tracking is crap and you cant oneshot them anymore.

Lasers are restricted to two damage types, and thats not really as much of a problem as is said, the main problem is cap use. with low skills, reppers will need to run more often as shots miss. also range with pulse sucks, and beams take a lot of fitting help. Active tank with low skills is not easy.





Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#11 - 2013-01-16 08:16:48 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
a rail catalyst or cormorant will beat thrasher at lvl1 and lvl2. the problem is almost always distances and that's where rails shine. but frankly, anything that can fit a weapon can deal with lvl1 missions, so i would advise OP tto just get whatever he thinks looks coolest.


its this.

The thrasher is better at many things but level 1 missions it is not. the rail catalyst is better because of range, ROF and fitting.

You want your range to be in the 20's optimal with dps over a hundred, but you dont want your weapons to cycle too slowly because you will kill things too fast.

Sure its nice to oneshot a frigate at 30 with artillery but the rest of the frigates will close before you've cycled your extremely slow guns . and then your tracking is crap and you cant oneshot them anymore.

Lasers are restricted to two damage types, and thats not really as much of a problem as is said, the main problem is cap use. with low skills, reppers will need to run more often as shots miss. also range with pulse sucks, and beams take a lot of fitting help. Active tank with low skills is not easy.







In comparable fits the Catalyst does 10% (roughly) more damage than the Thrasher up till 20km, beyond that they are VERY similar. The Thrasher is MUCH easier on cap (useful for a newbie) and can select damage types which can easily make up for the raw dps loss. Also, if you group guns you can pop several targets at the same time. In PVE I'd give it to the Thrasher due to ease of fitting, cap use and damage types. The Coercer has the same old problems All Amarr laserboats have but it's quite nice for pve.
XxRTEKxX
256th Shadow Wing
#12 - 2013-01-21 07:35:11 UTC
Go with the ship/weapons your skills are currently higher in. Keep improving those skills for that race. Since you are only doing lvl 1s, now is a great time to decide which weapon platform you prefer. Crosstraining early on is a hard thing to avoid


Personally I enjoy flying both Amarr and Minmatar ships. For missions, ill take a Minmatar ship over and Amarr. The option of choosing your damage type of ammo is great. Being restricted to EM/Therm sucks.

When i first started, I looked at the battleships of all races/factions to see what i wanted to fly first. Once i decided on the one I wanted most, i then focused on maxing my skills on that path.

Slicer or Firetail.........id go firetail because i have far higher skills with Minmatar ships/weapons than i do with Amarr. Plus, like i said, ability to load your choice of damage type is awesome.

Vargur or Paladin.......Machariel or Nightmare........ choose between those now, and the you'll answer your own question of Slicer or Firetail. ;-)
Bigg Gun
T.I.E. Inc.
#13 - 2013-01-21 13:51:49 UTC
Recently had to go through 60ish lvl 1, incliding the soe arc and I did it with the new caldari destroyer. I have perfect rocket skills so it's what I used problem was only 22km ranhe with the t2 long ramge rockets. For a newbie I'd suggest using light missiles, it will have less dps, but much more range.
Smokay
Yo Mr. White
#14 - 2013-01-23 05:20:43 UTC
I lost a Firetail to a Sigil one time. Go with the Slicer.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-01-23 06:19:35 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
a rail catalyst or cormorant will beat thrasher at lvl1 and lvl2. the problem is almost always distances and that's where rails shine. but frankly, anything that can fit a weapon can deal with lvl1 missions, so i would advise OP tto just get whatever he thinks looks coolest.


its this.

The thrasher is better at many things but level 1 missions it is not. the rail catalyst is better because of range, ROF and fitting.

You want your range to be in the 20's optimal with dps over a hundred, but you dont want your weapons to cycle too slowly because you will kill things too fast.

Sure its nice to oneshot a frigate at 30 with artillery but the rest of the frigates will close before you've cycled your extremely slow guns . and then your tracking is crap and you cant oneshot them anymore.

Lasers are restricted to two damage types, and thats not really as much of a problem as is said, the main problem is cap use. with low skills, reppers will need to run more often as shots miss. also range with pulse sucks, and beams take a lot of fitting help. Active tank with low skills is not easy.



In comparable fits the Catalyst does 10% (roughly) more damage than the Thrasher up till 20km, beyond that they are VERY similar. The Thrasher is MUCH easier on cap (useful for a newbie) and can select damage types which can easily make up for the raw dps loss. Also, if you group guns you can pop several targets at the same time. In PVE I'd give it to the Thrasher due to ease of fitting, cap use and damage types. The Coercer has the same old problems All Amarr laserboats have but it's quite nice for pve.


You are using a artillery thrasher to get up to 20 km? vs a 125 catalyst?
Like i said the rof for level 1 and two missions is important . a 6 second rof off an arti thrasher can alpha a frigate its true, but the cycle is so low that it can be the difference between being able to track the target and having them slip under the guns of a low skilled player. more chances to hit means that misses will be less important and with the rof differences being approximately 1:3 between the cat's 125 and the thrashers 280 you get a better effective dps overall.

also arti thrasher needs a lot more fitting help then a 125 rail cat so thats still what id suggest. I am interested in your 20km thrasher fitting thats easier to fit then the 125 cat, perhaps im not looking at the right things.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.