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NPC AI hurting solo pvp.
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Juan Thang
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#41 - 2013-01-22 08:52:17 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
Juan Thang wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
while i don't agree with OP, i still think something is not working as intended with the new AI.

the aggro mechanics seems to work odd.

i ran a couple missions last weekend with a few friends (no one warped out in the following sequence).

1- legion warpin and take full agrro and stuf...

2- then a Macha warp in, instan full aggro even without aggressing (why not, after all at that moment it is the biggest DPS on field)

3- a drake warp in => instant full aggro (even if he didn't aggressed at all)

4- a myrmydon warp in, instant full aggro, same as the drake.

done 5 missions with different NPC rat (sanshas, angel, guristas, mercs), same behaviour 100%, no ewar involved at any moment.

from our point of view, it seems that whatever warps in, the last to warpin WILL take full aggro for at least 1 to 2 minutes, regardless of the "threat" it represent to the npcs.

after this delay passed, the ship drawing most of the aggro seems random, and not related to its tank or dps ability.

i'm not sure this is the behaviour intended


I belive this from the NPC point of view:

Oh weve been shooting these guys a while and were not breaking theyre tank, OH new target lets test that ones tank.


Well no actually, because the second you're on grid they'll be a noticeable difference on their current target's ability to tank.


Are you saying that the more ships you have on grid the more dps the rats do? or that the ships will be shooting them so the dps is reduced?
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#42 - 2013-01-22 08:54:42 UTC
Juan Thang wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:
Juan Thang wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
while i don't agree with OP, i still think something is not working as intended with the new AI.

the aggro mechanics seems to work odd.

i ran a couple missions last weekend with a few friends (no one warped out in the following sequence).

1- legion warpin and take full agrro and stuf...

2- then a Macha warp in, instan full aggro even without aggressing (why not, after all at that moment it is the biggest DPS on field)

3- a drake warp in => instant full aggro (even if he didn't aggressed at all)

4- a myrmydon warp in, instant full aggro, same as the drake.

done 5 missions with different NPC rat (sanshas, angel, guristas, mercs), same behaviour 100%, no ewar involved at any moment.

from our point of view, it seems that whatever warps in, the last to warpin WILL take full aggro for at least 1 to 2 minutes, regardless of the "threat" it represent to the npcs.

after this delay passed, the ship drawing most of the aggro seems random, and not related to its tank or dps ability.

i'm not sure this is the behaviour intended


I belive this from the NPC point of view:

Oh weve been shooting these guys a while and were not breaking theyre tank, OH new target lets test that ones tank.


Well no actually, because the second you're on grid they'll be a noticeable difference on their current target's ability to tank.


Are you saying that the more ships you have on grid the more dps the rats do? or that the ships will be shooting them so the dps is reduced?



Whoops sorry I thought it was in relation to a third party warping in, ignore me.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#43 - 2013-01-22 10:41:35 UTC
I'd like to add that nowdays it's impossible to go take down or harass carriers doing lvl 5s as solo player. The moment you land on grid, every npc on the field switches to you regardless of your ship type. Its one piece of this game that was really fun to do that is ruined by npc AI. Carebearetribution.
Cyen Faye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-01-22 11:18:01 UTC
It really doesn't make much sense. NPCs should not just be after the easier kill, they should mainly be out to save their own lives.

Meaning that people attacking them actively should most certainly be a higher priority for them to take down.
Hope CCP looks into this.
Eliniale
Co-operative Resource Extraction
#45 - 2013-01-22 11:29:56 UTC
NPC's are supposed to add a level of randomness to encounters, which makes things interesting, since they can turn around quite quickly.

If you do engage somone in a belt with rats, you sorta of accept the risk that the rats may in fact go after you.

Not that the idea is bad, but I prefer the situation as it currently is.

System ideas: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=191928&find=unread
Sheala de'Tancarville
Essence Endeavours
Essence Business Consortium
#46 - 2013-01-22 11:33:34 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:


You sit cloaked within tackle range and wait for him to clear the site so the rats don't grab you in the process. You grab him before he warps out seeing as you will see him "align" or take out the last rat.

Too much logic for you to compute it seems.


Clearly you've been rather "screwing around" than actually playing.

That tactic is viable only for ships that can warp in cloak. Unfortunately, those kind of ships either have not tank at all (bombers) or have **** dps (force recons, cloaky T3s).

Catching a ratter is ofter prelude to a fight - someone comes to rescue and fun is to be had. You can't have that flying cloakies. All that left is just pure ganks which COULD be fun but they get old fast.

From my perspective solution is quite simple - if I don't attack rats and I'm not helping someone who's attacking rats (i.e. logi ships), then rats leave me alone. Unless, I'm the only ship on the grid - then sure, rat can aggro.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#47 - 2013-01-22 11:55:41 UTC
Funny.
So xou are whining that these carbears who do pve and haven´t mostly even a point fitted aren´t killable so easy any more???

I have doubts that this has to do sth with real solo pvp. Call it better assassinating or sth else.
Carebears are still too easy to kill and it should be fixed.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#48 - 2013-01-22 12:51:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Roderick Grey
Eliniale wrote:
NPC's are supposed to add a level of randomness to encounters, which makes things interesting, since they can turn around quite quickly.

If you do engage somone in a belt with rats, you sorta of accept the risk that the rats may in fact go after you.

Not that the idea is bad, but I prefer the situation as it currently is.


It's not random if a pvper points/tackles they WILL be primary.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Juan Thang
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#49 - 2013-01-22 14:33:28 UTC
Ueberlisk wrote:
I'd like to add that nowdays it's impossible to go take down or harass carriers doing lvl 5s as solo player. The moment you land on grid, every npc on the field switches to you regardless of your ship type. Its one piece of this game that was really fun to do that is ruined by npc AI. Carebearetribution.


You arnt ment to do anything in level 5's solo stop whining
Juan Thang
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#50 - 2013-01-22 14:35:11 UTC
everyone stop whining cause you can't kill PvE ships anymore, deal with it and fit your ship accordingly use bubbles, get them on the way to the site, there's plenty of ways around it.
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#51 - 2013-01-22 15:03:58 UTC
Juan Thang wrote:
everyone stop whining cause you can't kill PvE ships anymore, deal with it and fit your ship accordingly use bubbles, get them on the way to the site, there's plenty of ways around it.


Are you saying a dictor can kill a tengu? what's stopping him from afterburning out of the bubble?

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
bongsmoke
Visine Red
420 Chronicles of EvE
#52 - 2013-01-22 15:14:07 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.

I think CCP should change the aggression mechanics so that players attacking them take priority over others. I mean, how is attacking the ship that's killing the ship that's attacking you make any sense?

I think CCP should make it the mechanics work like this:

A drake warps into a belt and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.

The drake attacks one of the rats granting it priority 1 aggression.

The drake gets it's drones out and attacks a frigate rat with them, the drones now have priority 1 aggression aswell, allowing NPC AI to switch in-between their desired targets.

A Cynabal enters the belt and attacks the Drake and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.

The rats continue attacking the drake, as the drake has type 1 aggression.

The drake dies, the rats switch to the Cynabal as there are no priority 1 targets on field.


How about no, keep it as is.....

I fully understand what you saying, just no...
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#53 - 2013-01-22 15:21:19 UTC
bongsmoke wrote:


How about no, keep it as is.....

I fully understand what you saying, just no...


Thank you for contributing nothing to this discussion.

Now get out.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Juan Thang
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#54 - 2013-01-22 17:01:12 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
Juan Thang wrote:
everyone stop whining cause you can't kill PvE ships anymore, deal with it and fit your ship accordingly use bubbles, get them on the way to the site, there's plenty of ways around it.


Are you saying a dictor can kill a tengu? what's stopping him from afterburning out of the bubble?


No im not, and why a tengu in particular? absolutely nothing is stopping it, ive escaped bubble camps because the retards didn't think i could mwd out of it.... got grief in local because of it :P

This is what I mean though, every situation can be overcome. get a couple of webs and a warp disrupter that 'tengu' would be yours. Yes rats target other ships now.... its just something your gunna have to get used to.
Bydla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-01-22 17:48:32 UTC
Kestrix wrote:
LOL Pvp'er chased off by mission rats...

You do realise that the rats switch to you because your the biggest threat. There is not a first come first served system in combat .

You are working off the philosophy that the enemy of my enemy is my friend and it's not true. Ether bring a ship with a bigger tank or choose another profession :)

Edit: Sorry thought I was in GD then... that's an interesting idea but I'll have to give this one the thumbs down.



When you are tackling a tengu in a omen/thrasher, how can you be a bigger threat than tengu and get full aggro? Shocked Happened to me a lot. The hole idea of npc aggroing same size target is not working. Why I get bs aggro in a destroyer? Fix this **** mechanic.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-01-22 18:06:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
please change thread name to "NPC AI hurts solo ganking carebears".

Kinda nice if in a frigate fight on a gate or belt that just because the other guy warped into me im not at a permanent disadvantage and leads to a somewhat more level playing field.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#57 - 2013-01-22 18:22:14 UTC
No no no

you shouldn't be able to bust billion isk PVE t3's running 10/10's in a ****** t1 frig. If you can't hunt them down in a properly tanked ship, GTFO. Sansha hates everybody equally.
Juan Thang
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#58 - 2013-01-22 18:29:01 UTC
Chandaris wrote:
No no no

you shouldn't be able to bust billion isk PVE t3's running 10/10's in a ****** t1 frig. If you can't hunt them down in a properly tanked ship, GTFO. Sansha hates everybody equally.


AGREED
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-01-22 18:34:39 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.

I think CCP should change the aggression mechanics so that players attacking them take priority over others. I mean, how is attacking the ship that's killing the ship that's attacking you make any sense?

I think CCP should make it the mechanics work like this:

A drake warps into a belt and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.

The drake attacks one of the rats granting it priority 1 aggression.

The drake gets it's drones out and attacks a frigate rat with them, the drones now have priority 1 aggression aswell, allowing NPC AI to switch in-between their desired targets.

A Cynabal enters the belt and attacks the Drake and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.

The rats continue attacking the drake, as the drake has type 1 aggression.

The drake dies, the rats switch to the Cynabal as there are no priority 1 targets on field.




You don't need CCP to make rats help you killing raters, you need friends to help you kill the rater or provide you some reps.

There's no problem with those rats, those are fine.


removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#60 - 2013-01-22 18:52:19 UTC
Juan Thang wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:
Juan Thang wrote:
everyone stop whining cause you can't kill PvE ships anymore, deal with it and fit your ship accordingly use bubbles, get them on the way to the site, there's plenty of ways around it.


Are you saying a dictor can kill a tengu? what's stopping him from afterburning out of the bubble?


No im not, and why a tengu in particular? absolutely nothing is stopping it, ive escaped bubble camps because the retards didn't think i could mwd out of it.... got grief in local because of it :P

This is what I mean though, every situation can be overcome. get a couple of webs and a warp disrupter that 'tengu' would be yours. Yes rats target other ships now.... its just something your gunna have to get used to.


A tengu is the most popular ratting ship, hence it's an example of what one would typically encounter in an anom.

Well no it's not something I have to get used to if I feel this mechanic is genuinely flawed and others agree with me then CCP may tweak it to "balance" it further.

Chandaris wrote:
No no no

you shouldn't be able to bust billion isk PVE t3's running 10/10's in a ****** t1 frig. If you can't hunt them down in a properly tanked ship, GTFO. Sansha hates everybody equally.


No T1 frig could take on a properly fit ratting Tengu.

Please show me an example of a ship with a large enough tank to hold it's own against 500 dps + rat aggro, that has roughly 400 EM (neuts would be recommended) damage and is fast enough to both navigate hostile null and catch/point ratters.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.