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[Retribution 1.1] Armor Tanking 1.5

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DR BiCarbonate
Doomriders.
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#101 - 2013-01-21 19:57:04 UTC
No, we don't need more new mods.... buff/fix the current ones. Whatever it is you guys are smoking over there I really want some.

Ruin the game more plz, thanks.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#102 - 2013-01-21 19:57:23 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Plates
  • Add a new skill to the game called Armor Upgrades. This skill reduces the mass penalty of all armor plates by 5% per level. (Int/Mem, rank 3, requires Mechanics 3) This skill affects all plates (including 1600mm) and is separate from the stat change listed below.
  • Reduce the base mass penalty on all 800mm, 200mm and 50mm plates by 20%
    • Also, please no. No more skill books for armor tankers. It's already bad enough that it takes a lot longer for armor tankers to get their T2 tanks vs shield tankers, and now you're only pushing that divide further.

    Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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    Heimdallofasgard
    Ministry of Furious Retribution
    Fraternity.
    #103 - 2013-01-21 19:58:54 UTC
    Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    At the same time as these changes we'd be reducing the Incrusus rep bonus to 7.5% to keep things sane.


    Ha! Now tell me, wouldn't it have made MUCH more sense to fix armor tanking FIRST, and THEN go and re-balance ships? Instead of rebalancing ships first, then fixing the mechanics that were broken but ships are bonused for, and then having to re-re-balance ships once again?

    Aside from rep bonus, you'll probably have to take a look at things like cargo hold (for the charges for the new AAR), the PG (for the new rigs), the repair bonus (like with Incursus), etc. How awesome would it have been if you could re-balance ships in a single pass? Instead of tweaking the same ship several times in a 3 month period?

    And think about the future. Remember all those shiney new drone boats? Tristan, Algos, Dragoon, etc? Remember those? What will happen to them when drones will get their review and re-balance? Those will have to be revisited once again to make sure they're not too weak or too strong. Like the Myrmidon under review now, what do you want to bet that someone will have to go back to that one after drones are rebalanced and rebalance it again?

    So, doesn't it make sense to fix the core mechanics before re-balancing ships? Instead of doing multiple ship re-re-balances? Or am I just nuts? What?

    Good changes though, at least on paper. I just wish they were done in order instead of donkey-backwards.


    Balancing modules, weapons, ships, bonuses and penalties isn't a linear process... it's like mixing and mastering a music track, you change one thing and it has effects across the board, so you keep going back over old ground to make tiny adjustments and make sure the quality is still there and nothing has gotten out of control.
    Eternal Error
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #104 - 2013-01-21 19:59:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
    In no particular order:

    While the overcharge rig isn't necessarily bad, I think you should look at fixing the issues themselves rather than introducing something entirely new. This seems unnecessary.

    New skills are, generally, a bad idea. Having a skill that reduces armor plate mass and NOTHING ELSE (especially when there's nothing comparable for shields) really doesn't make sense.

    Changing the penalty to increase local rep PG isn't a very good idea given that they already take stupid amounts of PG.

    New modules, are, generally, a bad idea. Consider fixing the current issues before introducing new modules that need more balancing efforts.

    You need to look at local active tank fitting requirements/rep amounts and speed penalties on rigs. Start there, roll out some changes, and see what happens. The problem isn't SO SIGNIFICANT that you need to start introducing new modules and skills left and right. I appreciate the effort, but I don't like the look of any of the things you've proposed other than the innate mass reduction on smaller plates.

    TL;DR fix existing stuff before you introduce new stuff
    Mesh Marillion
    Fairlight Corp
    Rooks and Kings
    #105 - 2013-01-21 19:59:19 UTC
    I know its probably a very niche problem but since you're already looking at plates and armor tanking generally could you maybe give faction plates another look? Since the buff of the T2 plates their advantage is so marginal, its not even funny. I remember that a lot of faction stuff got buffed after the introduction of new T2 mods however plates were apparently forgotten.
    fukier
    Gallente Federation
    #106 - 2013-01-21 20:01:11 UTC
    Liang Nuren wrote:
    fukier wrote:

    this.

    i dont mean to be harsh fozzie but i have been waiting for this to be looked at for a long long long time and am rather disappointed that this has not been addressed...

    with the most respect possible

    - fuk


    To be fair, there's been so much expectation (from and by the community) set around any armor tanking boost that there's no way CCP could ever have "gotten it right" without making armor tanking utterly overpowered. I'm pretty ok with not getting RR from active rep bonuses, but the assertion that it'd be "super overpowered" just rings slightly false to me.

    /shrug

    -Liang


    i here that... its the only thing i was looking forward to for the tank rebalance...

    i was really hopping they would not just do another asb thing...

    though i do like the mass reduction skill and rig heat thing too...

    well on the plus i got the ammar bc for fleets i guess...
    At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
    Richard Stallmanu Stallmania
    Rattini Tribe
    Minmatar Fleet Alliance
    #107 - 2013-01-21 20:03:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Stallmanu Stallmania
    Fozzie, I truly love you for the new ship balances.

    But allow me to speak my mind here.

    The new push towards "Ancillary"/Burst tank mods does one thing, it leaves the "traditional" form of that tanking in the dust.
    Ancillary booster's killed traditional active shield tanks.
    Ancillary Armor Reppers will kill traditional active armor tanks.

    Remember ASB Cyclones/Slieps/Maelstroms?
    Yeah. No one wants that to come back. It was boring, and generally stupid.

    What will happen post AAR's? Same stuff. One fit that has silly numbers and that everyone will be using.


    In addition, CCP is listening to the foaming at the mouth forum posters that believe "Off-grid links" are "super mega overpowered", when in reality, like everything else in Eve, are an advantage gained via SP investment and ISK investment.
    So once that change rolls into effect, there will be ZERO reason to use any traditional active tank, as off-grid links were the only thing that made them viable.


    Please buff the TRADITIONAL style of active tanking. All the necessary mods, ships, fittings, and skills are already in place.

    How do you do this? Easy.

    Reduce cap usage on traditional shield boosters.
    Reduce cycle time on armor repairers.

    This makes both types of tanking very similar in function, but those with armor tanks will have the "Crowd-Control" provided by utility mid-slots, and active shield will boast more DPS at the cost of "Crowd-Control".

    Adding new modules invalidates the use of the old.
    Cheradenine Harper
    The Grey Area
    #108 - 2013-01-21 20:03:31 UTC
    Bye bye dual rep Incursus? Maybe. All sounds good though. Apart from the stats. Why Int/Mem? Surely Int/Perception - part fitting, part flying? Or is it some meta-thing I'm missing?

    http://diaries-of-a-space-noob.blogspot.co.uk
    Bienator II
    madmen of the skies
    #109 - 2013-01-21 20:03:33 UTC
    when you run out of cap does the AAR still do something? e.g rep only the cap injected amount?

    how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
    Maximus Andendare
    Stimulus
    Rote Kapelle
    #110 - 2013-01-21 20:03:33 UTC
    Drew Solaert wrote:
    My Brutix just got a boner.
    That should be Thorax...

    Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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    Tsubutai
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #111 - 2013-01-21 20:05:40 UTC
    I may have goofed with the maths, but the Nanobot Overcharger rigs look distinctly underwhelming. On an unrigged ship, heating a rep increases your HP/second by 29% (1.1x rep amount/0.85x cycle time). With an NO, that goes up to a 40% increase on heating (1.13x rep amount/0.805x cycle time). Unless I've done the maths wrong, that means there's never a situation where the NO is better than an auxiliary nano pump outside of potential edge cases where you're running into massive stacking penalties (triple nano pumps? does anyone do this?):

    Unheated rep, no rigs: 1x rep amount
    Unheated rep + heat rig: 1x rep amount
    Unheated + auxiliary nano pump I: 1.15x rep amount

    Heated rep, no rigs: 1.29x rep amount
    Heated rep + heat rig: 1.4x rep amount
    Heated rep + auxiliary nano pump I: 1.48x rep amount (1.29x rep amount for heat times 1.15x rep amount for the nano pump)
    CCP Fozzie
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #112 - 2013-01-21 20:12:44 UTC
    Tsubutai wrote:
    I may have goofed with the maths, but the Nanobot Overcharger rigs look distinctly underwhelming. On an unrigged ship, heating a rep increases your HP/second by 29% (1.1x rep amount/0.85x cycle time). With an NO, that goes up to a 40% increase on heating (1.13x rep amount/0.805x cycle time). Unless I've done the maths wrong, that means there's never a situation where the NO is better than an auxiliary nano pump outside of potential edge cases where you're running into massive stacking penalties (triple nano pumps? does anyone do this?):

    Unheated rep, no rigs: 1x rep amount
    Unheated rep + heat rig: 1x rep amount
    Unheated + auxiliary nano pump I: 1.15x rep amount

    Heated rep, no rigs: 1.29x rep amount
    Heated rep + heat rig: 1.4x rep amount
    Heated rep + auxiliary nano pump I: 1.48x rep amount (1.29x rep amount for heat times 1.15x rep amount for the nano pump)


    Your math is correct, my math was wrong. I had been approximating the rigs in our internal test server using stat changed modules and had gotten the math wrong on the bonus. To hit the benefits I was aiming for, the rig will double the heat bonus at tech one.

    That's what I get for posting before all the authoring challenges are worked out, but thanks for catching it now instead of someone having to catch it later.

    I've updated the OP

    Game Designer | Team Five-0

    Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
    Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
    Raging Beaver
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #113 - 2013-01-21 20:12:55 UTC
    These changes sound quite nice, looking forward to testing them. I'm kind of curious how will the ancillary armor thingy work. The new skill is na decent idea, gonna have to learn it quickly... As for the rig penalty change - good idea, seems more logical to have increased grid usage when using a rig improving rep performance.
    Pinky Denmark
    The Cursed Navy
    #114 - 2013-01-21 20:14:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
    As you did with active shield tanking you have completely ignored the real problems and tried to fix them by introducing new stuff as an alternative... I really, really dislike the way you are ignoring the CORE of the game.

    Armor ships with armor rigs still causing ships to be slower, but you can fit an armor rig having different drawbacks than the rest of the group for more active rep in a weird cap injected way as if people didn't have enough slots for active reps already?

    This **** is not necesarily wrong but you are ignoring stuff...

    Edit: I overlooked and actually like the skillbook for reducing armor plate mass, but the velocity drawback is still a problem.
    Tbh all rigs should have their drawbacks looked at
    B'reanna
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #115 - 2013-01-21 20:17:22 UTC  |  Edited by: B'reanna
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Tsubutai wrote:
    I may have goofed with the maths, but the Nanobot Overcharger rigs look distinctly underwhelming. On an unrigged ship, heating a rep increases your HP/second by 29% (1.1x rep amount/0.85x cycle time). With an NO, that goes up to a 40% increase on heating (1.13x rep amount/0.805x cycle time). Unless I've done the maths wrong, that means there's never a situation where the NO is better than an auxiliary nano pump outside of potential edge cases where you're running into massive stacking penalties (triple nano pumps? does anyone do this?):

    Unheated rep, no rigs: 1x rep amount
    Unheated rep + heat rig: 1x rep amount
    Unheated + auxiliary nano pump I: 1.15x rep amount

    Heated rep, no rigs: 1.29x rep amount
    Heated rep + heat rig: 1.4x rep amount
    Heated rep + auxiliary nano pump I: 1.48x rep amount (1.29x rep amount for heat times 1.15x rep amount for the nano pump)


    Your math is correct, my math was wrong. I had been approximating the rigs in our internal test server using stat changed modules and had gotten the math wrong on the bonus. To hit the benefits I was aiming for, the rig will double the heat bonus at tech one.

    That's what I get for posting before all the authoring challenges are worked out, but thanks for catching it now instead of someone having to catch it later.

    I've updated the OP



    and what about readjusting the active arour tanking ships pg? so that they cane still be reasonably fit with the armor rigs?
    also will the rigg penalty changes be effecting the other rigs or just the active tanking ones?(just looking for confirmation on this one since not directly addressed)

    and then how does this balance with the asb which atm can fit more than one, cant be nueted off like the aar, and has more base rep tan the aar?
    Crash Lander
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #116 - 2013-01-21 20:18:05 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Is my title pretentious enough?
    ...
  • Why not just buff all armor reps?
    • One of the aspects I really like about the ASB is that it allowed CCP to decouple burst tanking from sustained tanking in a new and interesting way. Burst tanking is key for most PVP active tank scenarios while sustained tanking is more common for PVE. We wanted to carry that aspect over to armor tanking, allowing us to create new burst tanking gameplay without making current sustained tanking gameplay overpowered.


    Overall positive though what you describe here isn't quite as cut and dry as you say. Shield tanking in general is much more burst tanky than Armor, this isn't limited to the ASB. Compare any armor tanking Amarr BS vs a Nightmare with an XL Shield Boost and Amp for PvE. And that burst tanky nightmare is still a lot better than the armor alternatives.

    I do realize the goal here is to address PvP defficiency, for PvE these changes don't do much and the current top ships for PvE (mach, nightmare, vindi, vargur, cnr, tengu) will remail the same (and shield tanked).
    CCP Fozzie
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #117 - 2013-01-21 20:19:59 UTC
    B'reanna wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Tsubutai wrote:
    I may have goofed with the maths, but the Nanobot Overcharger rigs look distinctly underwhelming. On an unrigged ship, heating a rep increases your HP/second by 29% (1.1x rep amount/0.85x cycle time). With an NO, that goes up to a 40% increase on heating (1.13x rep amount/0.805x cycle time). Unless I've done the maths wrong, that means there's never a situation where the NO is better than an auxiliary nano pump outside of potential edge cases where you're running into massive stacking penalties (triple nano pumps? does anyone do this?):

    Unheated rep, no rigs: 1x rep amount
    Unheated rep + heat rig: 1x rep amount
    Unheated + auxiliary nano pump I: 1.15x rep amount

    Heated rep, no rigs: 1.29x rep amount
    Heated rep + heat rig: 1.4x rep amount
    Heated rep + auxiliary nano pump I: 1.48x rep amount (1.29x rep amount for heat times 1.15x rep amount for the nano pump)


    Your math is correct, my math was wrong. I had been approximating the rigs in our internal test server using stat changed modules and had gotten the math wrong on the bonus. To hit the benefits I was aiming for, the rig will double the heat bonus at tech one.

    That's what I get for posting before all the authoring challenges are worked out, but thanks for catching it now instead of someone having to catch it later.

    I've updated the OP



    and what about readjusting the active arour tanking ships pg? so that they cane still be reasonably fit with the armor rigs?
    also will the rigg penalty changes be effecting the other our rigs or just the active tanking ones?

    and then how does this balance with the asb which atm can fit more than one, cant be nueted off like the aar, and has more base rep tan the aar?



    The PG penalty is actually very mild and much easier to get around than the speed penalty.
    The rig penalties for trimarks and resist rigs are staying the same.

    And the AAR has less burst rep and more cap use than the ASB with the benefit of significantly better sustainability. If we need to tweak the stats after playtesting we definitely can.

    Game Designer | Team Five-0

    Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
    Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
    Roime
    Mea Culpa.
    Shadow Cartel
    #118 - 2013-01-21 20:21:32 UTC
    Quote:
    This effect is stacking penalized and gives no bonus when the reps are not overheated. Same calibration and build costs as a Aux Nano or Nanobot Acc rig.


    Stacked with what, only with itself or the other two rigs as well?

    Do rigs affect AAR cycle time?

    Quick check looks like 10-slot AAR+MAR II tank is finally better than 4-slot dual XLASB on an all V's Myrmidon.

    .
    Il Feytid
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #119 - 2013-01-21 20:21:34 UTC
    Now I wish I was going to fanfest just to hug CCP Fozzie. Big smile
    CCP Fozzie
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #120 - 2013-01-21 20:22:30 UTC
    Roime wrote:
    Quote:
    This effect is stacking penalized and gives no bonus when the reps are not overheated. Same calibration and build costs as a Aux Nano or Nanobot Acc rig.


    Stacked with what, only with itself or the other two rigs as well?

    Do rigs affect AAR cycle time?

    Quick check looks like 10-slot AAR+MAR II tank is finally better than 4-slot dual XLASB on an all V's Myrmidon.


    Stacked with itself since nothing else affects armor rep heat bonus atm.

    And AARs are affected by everything that affect subcap armor reps.

    Game Designer | Team Five-0

    Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
    Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie