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Do many EVE players fear consentual PvP?
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Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2013-01-21 18:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Google Voices wrote:
Because the vaunted PvPer's are mostly gankers that couldn't fight a fair fight if it slapped them in the face.

EVE attracts the worst dregs of humanity with it's open sandbox concept.
It also attracts some really good smart people, but most of them get tired of the behavior of the kiddy pirate fanbase and leave....

I'm in Osmon.

Come get some.

Or shut the hell up.


(edit: when i logged in, of course)
Enik3
Pyke Syndicate
Solyaris Chtonium
#42 - 2013-01-21 18:48:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Enik3
As long as invites can be disabled for people who aren't interested in participating in this process, then who really cares if dueling is in the game or not? And for that matter, why does everybody get so wrapped up in how other people choose to play and enjoy a game?

Jeez, you'd think that CCP was a government entity given the way virtually every decision they make (or ideas they propose) leads to arguments and controversy Roll
Othran
Route One
#43 - 2013-01-21 18:49:57 UTC
Roime wrote:
Ancy Denaries wrote:
Roime wrote:
How is it "more hardcore" than flying out solo and finding a fight?

Why is this mechanic needed?

Why is it not needed?


Because you can already fight agreed duels, and real fights.

Now tell me why do you think it's needed?


They want a duel they think they can win and they want an "arena" where they think they can win.

The whole concept is based around almost complete ignorance of PvP in Eve, simple as that.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2013-01-21 18:50:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Anyway, because everybody seems to drop his opinion.

I have no issue with the duelling mechanic, because nothing keeps me out of it.
I don't care about arenas, as long as arenas are publicly known, can be stormed and shiploss is mandatory for winning.

Have a nice day.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2013-01-21 18:51:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
I doubt people are going to start having duels instead of wars. Or duels instead of gatecamps. Lol
I'm not talking about behaviour — I'm talking about mechanics.

All mechanics for consensual combat are encapsulated within the mechanics of non-consensual combat, and no consensual combat can ever be allowed to exist outside the real of non-consensual engagements.

Thus, consensual mechanics are either unnecessary or game-breaking. Either way, there's no point in or need to add them.

You must be blind or something. A duel is consensual PVP without a sec hit where you and another player can duel without the interruption of another player. Bad attitudes are game breaking and there is no point or need for that either.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-01-21 18:54:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
I doubt people are going to start having duels instead of wars. Or duels instead of gatecamps. Lol
I'm not talking about behaviour — I'm talking about mechanics.

All mechanics for consensual combat are encapsulated within the mechanics of non-consensual combat, and no consensual combat can ever be allowed to exist outside the real of non-consensual engagements.

Thus, consensual mechanics are either unnecessary or game-breaking. Either way, there's no point in or need to add them.

You must be blind or something. A duel is consensual PVP without a sec hit where you and another player can duel without the interruption of another player. Bad attitudes are game breaking and there is no point or need for that either.

Why are you willingly ignoring the whole point of the argument,
namely that nowhere in EvE, at no time ever, people were/are/should be shielded from the others ?
(edit: in space, of course)
Optimo Sebiestor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2013-01-21 18:55:41 UTC
I guess the real question here is, what defines consentual PvP in EvE? Imo, loggin into the server is telling other players you are a valid target. What you do from there, is up to you.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2013-01-21 19:01:35 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
I doubt people are going to start having duels instead of wars. Or duels instead of gatecamps. Lol
I'm not talking about behaviour — I'm talking about mechanics.

All mechanics for consensual combat are encapsulated within the mechanics of non-consensual combat, and no consensual combat can ever be allowed to exist outside the real of non-consensual engagements.

Thus, consensual mechanics are either unnecessary or game-breaking. Either way, there's no point in or need to add them.

You must be blind or something. A duel is consensual PVP without a sec hit where you and another player can duel without the interruption of another player. Bad attitudes are game breaking and there is no point or need for that either.

Why are you willingly ignoring the whole point of the argument,
namely that nowhere in EvE, at no time ever, people were/are/should be shielded from the others ?
(edit: in space, of course)

There are all kinds of shields from others, it depends on which side of the shield you are on to see it though. The Op was asking about adding a feature that allows him to engage in a duel. Duels can exist in EVE, and with the attitudes of the player base, they should.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-01-21 19:08:03 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
There are all kinds of shields from others, it depends on which side of the shield you are on to see it though. The Op was asking about adding a feature that allows him to engage in a duel. Duels can exist in EVE, and with the attitudes of the player base, they should.


Yes, duels can exist. I have no issue with that.
But shielding duellants from the others can't.

The whole concept of EvE builds on the fact that everybody can always interact with everybody else, in space,
if he wishes and manages to do so. There is not a single game mechanic that prevents anybody from doing so.
Kalanaja
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2013-01-21 19:13:32 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I think what you're really seeing is a stigma.

"Arena" invokes a rather specific though. WoW, and the segregated PvP world. You "enter" an arena, that is not part of the world and has no impact on it. When you say "arena" in EVE, I believe people automatically think of WoW style arenas, were you would be ported to a "safe" place, to fight for no real loss with someone else.


Instead of arena maybe people should start saying "tournament".
A place IN THE GAME SPACE, that isn't seperated from everything else, were a number of peopel can compete in a structured match, and risk assets for the possibility to gain more assets.


I have no problem with "arenas" as long as they're done EVE style.
That would be tools that allow for players to set up tournaments, the ability to gamble on the outcome, and be able to watch as it happens; when it happesns.

If I can't fly to the "arena" and watch the match unfold, then it doesn't belong in EVE.



Very, very much agreed. NO INSTANCING IN EVE!! Hell, I still want WiS opened up so I can have people assassinated station side.
Blue Fiend
Doomheim
#51 - 2013-01-21 19:19:51 UTC
Wait, is CCP actually doing this or is this just a suggestion from (I hope) a small portion of the playerbase?

Guess I made a mistake coming back to Eve. I was there from 2003 fending off the people who for some reason choose to neglect other games with perfectly good carebear mechanics to cry about how Eve, one of the few games out there featuring non-consensual pvp, should be less like... Eve.

It's sad that after ten years of sticking to their guns, I picked a time to come back when CCP finally seems to be giving in to the pansies. Why do some people feel the need to come into this game that is advertised heavily as a hardcore, non-consensual pvp game and try to change the core of what makes it what it is? And why is CCP giving into them after all these years?
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
#52 - 2013-01-21 19:21:31 UTC
Wait, how does this "duel" make people "immune" to interference from outsiders?

"Shoot at anything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later."

"Do not be too positive. The light at the end of the tunnel could be a train." - Franz Kafka
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2013-01-21 19:26:49 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
It's not the fair fights people are worried about (although there's no denying that many people feel if you fight fair you're doing it wrong).

The most significant objection to a system of consensual pvp is that it represents a move away from non-consensual pvp, which is a cornerstone of this game.


Pretty much this.

Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-01-21 19:28:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I agree with this. Nothing should be introduced that prevents someone from "crashing your party".

If you have an arena, or tournament tools, then I should be able to actually crash your contest.
The tools to have arena style tournaments would be fine, but not if it also comes with mechanics that prevent others from being douches and interupting it.

Arenas all day long as far as I'm concerned, but I better be able to witness it in person, and be able to crash it if I choose.
Otherwise it doesn't really have any business in EVE.
…and at that point, it has very little to do with arenas, and rather revolves around the “betting office”, presumably some expansion or generalisation of the bounty and war report systems.

Exactly.

An "arena" is just the location an event is staged.
If that event has no meaning withint the context of EVE, which two people fighting it out for personal gain does not, then there's no reason to have it.


They're putting in dueling. You can make an arena.
CCP should give us tools to facilitate betting. It'll never get used to it's fullest potential if players have to actually manage the betting itself, we just don't trust each other enough for that.

I wouldn't mind a means of a ranking system, with a system set up to determines odds on combatants. And then a betting office that let people place wagers on the fighters.

And yeah, manipulation of the odds is entirely intended.
Gambling is manipulation of odds.




Any person that says you shouldn't be able to manipulate a betting system that CCP might create in EVE, and actually gambles in real life, deserves to be kicked in the nuts.

And for the record, I don't gamble.
Kalanaja
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2013-01-21 19:28:45 UTC
Ancy Denaries wrote:
Wait, how does this "duel" make people "immune" to interference from outsiders?



It doesn't. The dueling participants can still be ganked.
Kalanaja
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2013-01-21 19:33:30 UTC
Blue Fiend wrote:
Wait, is CCP actually doing this or is this just a suggestion from (I hope) a small portion of the playerbase?

Guess I made a mistake coming back to Eve. I was there from 2003 fending off the people who for some reason choose to neglect other games with perfectly good carebear mechanics to cry about how Eve, one of the few games out there featuring non-consensual pvp, should be less like... Eve.

It's sad that after ten years of sticking to their guns, I picked a time to come back when CCP finally seems to be giving in to the pansies. Why do some people feel the need to come into this game that is advertised heavily as a hardcore, non-consensual pvp game and try to change the core of what makes it what it is? And why is CCP giving into them after all these years?




No, they're just adding in the duel mechanics since the Crimewatch made it so 1vs1s aren't able to be done by can bait. Originally whoever took from the can became attackable by the can owner. That's how the 1vs1s were setup by people wanting to test ship fits or get practice. When they brought in crimewatch any taking from a can automatically became a target to everyone. So with that 1vs1s using cans were no longer capable as both comabatants taking from each others cans became blinky to everyone. People that did not read the patch notes for crimewatch and attempted to can dueling invariably ended swarmed by everyone nearby that saw the blinking.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#57 - 2013-01-21 19:42:07 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Can't your ship can't be prepared for PVE/ Industry and PVP. Must be those darn broken game mechanics again.


Aye. Point is:

industry/trading gameplay is brutal in EvE:

"you don't like my prices? Then GTFO and buy somewhere else"
"What? you made wrong market investiments and lost your money? Train your skill more and learn to platy, nobody will cuddle you"

It's in no way consensual.This is fine, and accepted by everyone.


But, for some odd reason, when it comes to piracy, wars, military aggressions and so on the same brutality is not accepted and everything is suposed to be fair and gentle. Like:

- "Pardon me, Sir, I'd like to stick a Nova Torpedo in your ass. Would you be so nice to consent to this?"
- "Of course my noble friends, only give me 30 minutes to fit the proper modules on my ship and let's do it in a safe, private place where nobody will bother us"
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#58 - 2013-01-21 19:48:27 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
But, for some odd reason, when it comes to piracy, wars, military aggressions and so on the same brutality is not accepted and everything is suposed to be fair and gentle. Like:

- "Pardon me, Sir, I'd like to stick a Nova Torpedo in your ass. Would you be so nice to consent to this?"
- "Of course my noble friends, only give me 30 minutes to fit the proper modules on my ship and let's do it in a safe, private place where nobody will bother us"

Your "Nova Torpedo" Shocked

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
FourierTransformer
#59 - 2013-01-21 20:01:46 UTC
-Structured 1v1's already exist. See RvB.
-Structured 1v1's have not destroyed other forms of pvp. Again, see RvB.
-Duel 1v1's are not without risk. Both parties can receive neutral reps at the cost of suspect status for the reppers. Both parties are susceptible to all forms of high sec ganking e.g. tornado alpha fleets popping shiny expensive ships.

The proposed 1v1's are scarcely any different from the can flipping 1v1's available in expansions prior to crimewatch. You could get neutral reps and ganks in those as well. And the PvP community at large was FINE with can flipping for the most part.

The proposed changes are not adding a new feature, they are re-instituting an old one.

The ONLY thing that changed is the obfuscation of mechanics. Previously, can flipping mechanics, specifically as they pertain to dueling, were not explicitly available in black and white text to newer players in game but required some out of game research. The new mechanic will be more transparent, particularly to newer players, which is a good thing.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#60 - 2013-01-21 20:14:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Aza Ebanu wrote:
You must be blind or something. A duel is consensual PVP without a sec hit where you and another player can duel without the interruption of another player.
…and thus has no place in EVE.
If you want to duel another player, you can go ahead and do so. If you want to disconnect from the rest of the game, I suggest logging out, because that's all you're going to get. Well, that or Sisi, which is over thataway →