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Minmatar are going to become the crap, CCP wants retribution not balance
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bigboy boss
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-01-20 21:38:19 UTC  |  Edited by: bigboy boss
Looking at the new balance notes and what they've done with the T1 cruisers I believe that CCP is going to make minmatar the "crap" race again. Retribution for being good for so long.

Why do I think this way? Well leme point out some things that are bothering me..

The T1 balancing of the cruisers was so good, I loved it. However.. I noticed that minmatar was significantly weaker than before.
The rupture is no longer amazing, it is mearly okay... The stabber only goes fast, and the bellicose is meh. The only ship I think that is well balanced from minmatar T1 cruisers is the scythe. And its a support vessel.

Looking at the new battlecruiser balances I noticed that the already nerfed hurricane is getting yet another nerf.. Personally I never thought the hurricane was "OP", just very overrated.
Its a wonderful ship to fly, one of my favorites... From the looks of it, not only did they already nerf the powergrid... but it is also losing a highslot, getting a weaker capacitor, becoming heavier, more signature radius, less cargo capacity.

Now I don't know much, but I think the hurricane is not going to be worth flying compared to the massively buffed other BCs. But wait... Wasn't the cyclone gaining some popularity with ASBs? They ruined that too. It is becoming a missile boat with 5 missile slots, two gun slots, and a single damage bonus to missiles. Sounds pretty worthless. Will the cyclone ever NOT suck?

If hurricane is so weak where am I going to use medium autocannons now? I don't have any missile skills for the terrible cyclone... Does that mean all my training into gunnery goes to waste because CCP wants to split my race of ships into half missile boat half autocannon? The Typhoon is becoming a full missile ship, the claymore is going to become a missile ship, by this design structure they are using... I expect them to make many more minmatar ships into missile ships. And that means I (and many other minmatar pilots) cannot use these ships until we pour all of our training into missiles!

The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships, besides the maelstrom the other BS aren't that good... Their capitals are also pretty terrible.


tl;dr: Whats the deal CCP? I know minmatar were "winmatar" for a while, but that doesn't mean they should be **** now. Balance is not punishing one race for being good by nerfing them.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#2 - 2013-01-20 22:02:56 UTC
I'll agree with this. I'm in FW and a Tristan will easily brawl down two rifters in a 1v2 fight. They are that bad. The Moa, Vexor, and Maller Combat Cruisers all have configurations that approach 50k EHP and 500 DPS with short range ammo. The Rupture struggles at 43k EHP and subpar DPS. The Rupture's speed advantage is negligible.
Arkenai Wyrnspire
Incorruptibles
#3 - 2013-01-20 22:07:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkenai Wyrnspire
Minmatar are not all '****' because not all of their ships are significantly more effective than the other races.

There are still a number of good Minmatar ships. The stabber is a nice ship, and the rupture can still fight decently enough, even if not quite as good as the others. The cyclone was gaining popularity with the ASBs because it took advantage of an already very powerful module.

It's not like Minmatar will be the only ones with two weapon systems. If you looked at the other races instead of just looking at Minmatar then you'd see that Amarr split SP between lasers and drones, Caldari between missiles and hybrids, and Gallente between hybrids and drones.

When you're looking at the Cyclone, you're not looking at it properly either. It has some decent bonuses and two utility highs is similar to what the hurricane has pre-rebalance.

Also: "The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships" is hardly insignificant. The vast majority of the game is subcap warfare.

Someone.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-01-20 22:22:45 UTC  |  Edited by: bigboy boss
Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:
Minmatar are not all '****' because not all of their ships are significantly more effective than the other races.

There are still a number of good Minmatar ships. The stabber is a nice ship, and the rupture can still fight decently enough, even if not quite as good as the others. The cyclone was gaining popularity with the ASBs because it took advantage of an already very powerful module.

It's not like Minmatar will be the only ones with two weapon systems. If you looked at the other races instead of just looking at Minmatar then you'd see that Amarr split SP between lasers and drones, Caldari between missiles and hybrids, and Gallente between hybrids and drones.

When you're looking at the Cyclone, you're not looking at it properly either. It has some decent bonuses and two utility highs is similar to what the hurricane has pre-rebalance.

Also: "The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships" is hardly insignificant. The vast majority of the game is subcap warfare.


Stabber isn't good, the rupture is weak compared to its counterparts, I consider the new cyclone a nerf... Even you said it was only taking "advantage of an already very powerful module".

With the ASB nerf and the upcoming cyclone nerf... I think the ship is completely worthless.

Drones do not count as a separate weapon system because they are used on 90% of the ships in the game. They are universally trained across all races. But something like missiles... isn't.

Caldari might be split between hybrid and missile... but they aren't split between armor and shield like minmatar are. Almost all caldari ships are shield tankers with the exception of the scorp.

But now minmatar is split between guns and missile, also armor and shield. They are the do-it-all race but are just weak. So not only do you have to train more to get their full potential... You are rewarded by being worse than the competition for it.


"Also: The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships" is hardly insignificant. The vast majority of the game is subcap warfare."

Just because you can't fly a capital ship doesn't mean that they don't matter.
Arkenai Wyrnspire
Incorruptibles
#5 - 2013-01-20 22:37:59 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:



"Also: The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships" is hardly insignificant. The vast majority of the game is subcap warfare."

Just because you can't fly a capital ship doesn't mean that they don't matter.


I didn't say they didn't matter. I said that the majority of the game is subcap warfare, which remains correct.

The Cyclone is radically different - wait and see how it performs before bashing on it. EFT warrioring yields decent statistics for it. The ASB remains powerful despite the nerf as well.

If drones do not count as a weapon system, what do you think of ships such as the Ishtar, Gila, or the Dominix and Rattlesnake? Are they weak ships because they don't have good turrets and launchers?

I agree that there is a lot of different stuff to train into in terms of tank as well as weapons for the Minmatar, though. There isn't much that can be done about that.

Minmatar ships remain fast. Do not discount the advantages of speed on ships such as the Stabber, especially with the large falloff of ACs.

The Rupture and Rifter are subpar, though. The Hurricane nerfs haven't fully gone through yet, so as with the Cyclone wait and see.

Someone.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-01-20 23:07:21 UTC  |  Edited by: bigboy boss
Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:



"Also: The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships" is hardly insignificant. The vast majority of the game is subcap warfare."

Just because you can't fly a capital ship doesn't mean that they don't matter.


I didn't say they didn't matter. I said that the majority of the game is subcap warfare, which remains correct.

The Cyclone is radically different - wait and see how it performs before bashing on it. EFT warrioring yields decent statistics for it. The ASB remains powerful despite the nerf as well.

If drones do not count as a weapon system, what do you think of ships such as the Ishtar, Gila, or the Dominix and Rattlesnake? Are they weak ships because they don't have good turrets and launchers?

I agree that there is a lot of different stuff to train into in terms of tank as well as weapons for the Minmatar, though. There isn't much that can be done about that.

Minmatar ships remain fast. Do not discount the advantages of speed on ships such as the Stabber, especially with the large falloff of ACs.

The Rupture and Rifter are subpar, though. The Hurricane nerfs haven't fully gone through yet, so as with the Cyclone wait and see.


Theres no need to wait and see if the cyclone is going to be bad or not. Anybody with half a brain can tell its going to be bad.

Rattlesnake is probably the worst pirate faction battleship, the Gila isn't anything amazing, the domi is most useful as a neut boat, but the ishtar is alright. Big deal. Everybody trains drones, just because a few ships get bonuses to drones doesn't make it the same as having to skill up an entirely different weapon system because half of the ships you knew as gunboats are turning into missile boats.

For the last time, the stabber is terrible. All it does is go fast. It's DPS is already terrible.. and you say to use it at fall off? Thats like 100 dps! Lol.

Shield Omen, HAM caracal, and Rail thorax POOP on a kiting stabber. POOP!
Name Family Name
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-01-20 23:11:11 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:

If hurricane is so weak where am I going to use medium autocannons now?



A Cynabal?

Seriously though, I've been flying Minmatar ships almost exclusively for the last three years myself, simply because whenever I tried to fit something Sub-BS from another race (two of my characters are fully cross-skilled accross 4 races), the Minmatar option was flat out better (and I refuse to fly Drakes or Tengus).

I personally told people to just train for shields, projectiles and Minmatar if they want to win Eve

Minmatar had always been split weapons, it's just that people forgot about that because CCP ridiculously overpowered projectiles when changing their ammo types and tracking enhancers at the same time and thus, I guess most of the newer Minmatar-only pilots didn't even know their ships had launcher hardpoints.

Checking them out, I must say that I'm looking forward to fly a nanoed HAM-Cyclone, although I admit the situation must suck a little if you're just skilled for projectile Minmatar fits.

Overall the new ones are fine, imho - they're still the fastest race, so they determine the rules of engagement. That in itself is a big enough advantage to make drawbacks in other areas a necessity.
Arkenai Wyrnspire
Incorruptibles
#8 - 2013-01-20 23:11:16 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:


You do know that your DPS goes much lower at fall off... Right?



You do know that autocannons fight in falloff... Right?

Someone.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-01-20 23:20:52 UTC  |  Edited by: bigboy boss
Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:


You do know that your DPS goes much lower at fall off... Right?



You do know that autocannons fight in falloff... Right?


Perfect example of strawman argument. This just shows how weak your original position was. Smile

Name Family Name wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:

If hurricane is so weak where am I going to use medium autocannons now?



A Cynabal?

Seriously though, I've been flying Minmatar ships almost exclusively for the last three years myself, simply because whenever I tried to fit something Sub-BS from another race (two of my characters are fully cross-skilled accross 4 races), the Minmatar option was flat out better (and I refuse to fly Drakes or Tengus).

I personally told people to just train for shields, projectiles and Minmatar if they want to win Eve

Minmatar had always been split weapons, it's just that people forgot about that because CCP ridiculously overpowered projectiles when changing their ammo types and tracking enhancers at the same time and thus, I guess most of the newer Minmatar-only pilots didn't even know their ships had launcher hardpoints.

Checking them out, I must say that I'm looking forward to fly a nanoed HAM-Cyclone, although I admit the situation must suck a little if you're just skilled for projectile Minmatar fits.

Overall the new ones are fine, imho - they're still the fastest race, so they determine the rules of engagement. That in itself is a big enough advantage to make drawbacks in other areas a necessity.


So the only ship I can use my medium autocannons is a pirate faction (not even minmatar) cruiser that costs something like 300mil just for the hull? Oh wait you were kidding... I was about to take that seriously because it seems like its true.

The ham cyclone does the exact same missile DPS as a caracal. The funny thing is, a caracal can probably kill the cyclone by kiting it because of superior range and speed.

Speed alone doesn't matter. Before minmatar had speed and DPS, thats what made them deadly. But now we have a stabber that can barely do 100 dps at kiting range. Meh.
Arkenai Wyrnspire
Incorruptibles
#10 - 2013-01-20 23:35:43 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:
Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:


You do know that your DPS goes much lower at fall off... Right?



You do know that autocannons fight in falloff... Right?


Perfect example of strawman argument. This just shows how weak your original position was. Smile


Perfect example of evading a point you can't answer.


"The ham cyclone does the exact same missile DPS as a caracal. The funny thing is, a caracal can probably kill the cyclone by kiting it because of superior range and speed."
The tank on the Cyclone is vastly superior. ASBs remain strong modules.
You also just pointed out that the Cyclone could be kited with 'superior range and speed'. Stabber.

Drones are clearly a proper weapon system when the majority of a ship's damage output comes from them. Thus, every race has a split weapons system. Minmatar pilots have trained primarily projectiles, so what? Train another weapon system like the other races.

Someone.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-01-20 23:37:40 UTC
Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:
Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:
bigboy boss wrote:


You do know that your DPS goes much lower at fall off... Right?



You do know that autocannons fight in falloff... Right?


Perfect example of strawman argument. This just shows how weak your original position was. Smile


Perfect example of evading a point you can't answer.


"The ham cyclone does the exact same missile DPS as a caracal. The funny thing is, a caracal can probably kill the cyclone by kiting it because of superior range and speed."
The tank on the Cyclone is vastly superior. ASBs remain strong modules.
You also just pointed out that the Cyclone could be kited with 'superior range and speed'. Stabber.

Drones are clearly a proper weapon system when the majority of a ship's damage output comes from them. Thus, every race has a split weapons system. Minmatar pilots have trained primarily projectiles, so what? Train another weapon system like the other races.


Either troll or daft.
Arkenai Wyrnspire
Incorruptibles
#12 - 2013-01-20 23:44:32 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:

Either troll or daft.

So instead of answering a point you discount it as a 'troll'?

Someone.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-01-20 23:46:49 UTC
I don't see Winmatards ditching their boats for the new and improved Thorax en mass.Roll
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#14 - 2013-01-21 00:04:53 UTC
Nerf winmatar


...no seriously

Oderint Dum Metuant
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-01-21 00:05:20 UTC
Yeah this started back with frig changes making the rifter obsolete.
The cane changes are making it worse than obsolete which is a damn same.
The min BSs have never been good, cruisers are fine, T2 lineup is still good (yet to be balanced ofc).
the trend definitely has been to sh*t on minmatar these past 6 months tho.

There is no Bob.

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Arkenai Wyrnspire
Incorruptibles
#16 - 2013-01-21 00:08:12 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Yeah this started back with frig changes making the rifter obsolete.
The cane changes are making it worse than obsolete which is a damn same.
The min BSs have never been good, cruisers are fine, T2 lineup is still good (yet to be balanced ofc).
the trend definitely has been to sh*t on minmatar these past 6 months tho.


The Rifter lost out in the rebalancing, true. Some others did not, however, for example the Slasher, which is a very nice frigate.

Someone.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#17 - 2013-01-21 00:11:19 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Yeah this started back with frig changes making the rifter obsolete.
The cane changes are making it worse than obsolete which is a damn same.
The min BSs have never been good, cruisers are fine, T2 lineup is still good (yet to be balanced ofc).
the trend definitely has been to sh*t on minmatar these past 6 months tho.


While I agree that Minmatar is no longer as stand-out win as they used to be, I have to disagree that the Cane changes are 'worse than obsolete'. It's not even remotely the worst BC after the changes. Or even on the worst side of it.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-01-21 00:19:07 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:
Balance is not punishing one race for being good by nerfing them.


Yes it is.
Thats why it's call balancing.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#19 - 2013-01-21 00:25:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
bigboy boss wrote:
Looking at the new balance notes and what they've done with the T1 cruisers I believe that CCP is going to make minmatar the "crap" race again. Retribution for being good for so long.

Why do I think this way? Well leme point out some things that are bothering me..

The T1 balancing of the cruisers was so good, I loved it. However.. I noticed that minmatar was significantly weaker than before.
The rupture is no longer amazing, it is mearly okay... The stabber only goes fast, and the bellicose is meh. The only ship I think that is well balanced from minmatar T1 cruisers is the scythe. And its a support vessel.

Looking at the new battlecruiser balances I noticed that the already nerfed hurricane is getting yet another nerf.. Personally I never thought the hurricane was "OP", just very overrated.
Its a wonderful ship to fly, one of my favorites... From the looks of it, not only did they already nerf the powergrid... but it is also losing a highslot, getting a weaker capacitor, becoming heavier, more signature radius, less cargo capacity.

Now I don't know much, but I think the hurricane is not going to be worth flying compared to the massively buffed other BCs. But wait... Wasn't the cyclone gaining some popularity with ASBs? They ruined that too. It is becoming a missile boat with 5 missile slots, two gun slots, and a single damage bonus to missiles. Sounds pretty worthless. Will the cyclone ever NOT suck?

If hurricane is so weak where am I going to use medium autocannons now? I don't have any missile skills for the terrible cyclone... Does that mean all my training into gunnery goes to waste because CCP wants to split my race of ships into half missile boat half autocannon? The Typhoon is becoming a full missile ship, the claymore is going to become a missile ship, by this design structure they are using... I expect them to make many more minmatar ships into missile ships. And that means I (and many other minmatar pilots) cannot use these ships until we pour all of our training into missiles!

The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships, besides the maelstrom the other BS aren't that good... Their capitals are also pretty terrible.


tl;dr: Whats the deal CCP? I know minmatar were "winmatar" for a while, but that doesn't mean they should be **** now. Balance is not punishing one race for being good by nerfing them.


Breacher = win
Slasher = decent
Thrasher = win
Talwar = decent
Rupture = decent
Bellicose = win
Cyclone = decent
Hurricane = good

As opposed too..

Punisher = ****
tormentor = decent
Coercer = good
Dragoon = decent
Maller = **** (Being semi competent at ab cruiser gangs does not count)
Omen = ****
Proph = brick
Harb = decent


The **** are you complaining about?



EDIT: As to the nerfs to the cane.. Have you ever tried to fit a harbinger? like at all? Cane is still a LOT easier to fit, and its faster and it can actually hit stuff thats close up. LTP

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Name Family Name
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2013-01-21 00:29:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Name Family Name
Jack Miton wrote:
Yeah this started back with frig changes making the rifter obsolete.
The cane changes are making it worse than obsolete which is a damn same.
The min BSs have never been good, cruisers are fine, T2 lineup is still good (yet to be balanced ofc).
the trend definitely has been to sh*t on minmatar these past 6 months tho.



I kind of agree the rifter needs a little finetuning, but calling it obsolete is an exageration. It just went from being the only viable T1 frig since the games existance to a mediocre one.

I completely disagree on the Cane. Most fits just need minor modifications to keep it viable and it was flat out obsoleting any cruiser in Battlecruisers online for far too long.

All in all, I think CCP just dropped the background perspective when it comes to ship-balancing. E.g. Minmatar exceled in small, cheap ships as you'd expect from slave-rebels specialicing in Guerilla tactics, whereas anything Amarr exorbitantly sucked sub-BS, as you'd expect from a traditionally large, rich empire.

Since the background was dropped in all other areas, it's only logical they drop it when it comes to ship balance.

The impression there was a trend for Mins being shat upon during the last months just results from the fact that they have been vastly overpowered in low-cost ships and these were the classes that were rebalanced.

They deserve even some more brown, warm love when it comes to Projectiles in combination with TE's, fitting requirements, sig radius, as well as a review of armor vs. shield tanking.

Maybe when CCP do all the latter, I'll consider flying something else again.
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