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Just be happy with what you picked dingus

First post
Author
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-01-19 14:56:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
Read everything before replying or I'll just ignore you. I apologize in advance for my sense of humor.

One thing that has been bothering me and my friends is that people are trying to go against the backstory of their character's empire.

For instance if you think slavery, blind religious zealotry and fanaticism are bad things, you should not have picked Amarr. It's quite simple there's no way to spin this around. The Amarr society is fundamentally evil, they look evil too. If you got a problem with your character being from a society that is built on the back of something as primitive and cruel as slavery and genocide then you should stop complaining and make a new character.

It's like having a race of people that sustains itself by eating newborns. Then you complain to CCP why they make the race seem 'evil'.

The 'space fascists'... a favorite of mine. The Caldari State is the closest thing to a dystopia the universe has. We have an insane dictator with a backstory worthy of real world despots, hypercapitalism and selfish greedy megacorporations and a cyberpunk setting. As much as I think it's kinda cool because I'm a huge fan of cyberpunk, there's just not a positive spin to Caldari society. Nobody sane would ever like to live there. We go back to character design, Caldari characters look evil as well. And their ships remind me of the Empire from Star Wars for some strange reason. Just with less lasers. I could count with both hands the numbers of likeminded capitalists I studied with at my university and we all would cringe at the thought of living in the Caldari State.

These are clearly the 'ebil guise' of the universe. It's no wonder they have allied together. It's the Gallente Federation's dream to justify it's existence. It's a 'space axis of evil'.

The Minmatar Republic is like a rising third world country. Imagine space vikings that were enslaved for centuries suddenly get free to sail the seas of Europe again. You know blood is going to spill and whose blood they are out to get. Can you really blame them? I'd be angry too. Not only they are brash and rebelious, they have major wounded pride issues and seem to always want to compesate for that as well. It is basically a society that would do anything to for e-peen.

Now the Gallente Federation. What I've seen people like to say CCP picked Gallente to be the 'good guys' of the universe. Sure having things like a democracy, a constitution and a government that serves the people (not the other way around) are positive things (and therefore unfair). That's normal, you want to know why? Because the odds of you being born in a country and society with these qualities are very high. Sure the Federation has flaws but they still have the heart in the right place at least depending on the democratic cycles.

Now you have the Federation and the Republic working together. Just the name Federation and Republic have positive sides:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheRepublic

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheFederation

We have a Republic out for revenge against a very clear target and for very clear reasons. Revenge is a heroic trait after all. Meanwhile the Federation is such an awesome contender that their very existence is a front to their enemies.

So we come down to faction design. CCP gave you an ice cream buffet with more than one flavor. If you don't liked the flavor you picked, try another. Try them all if you must. However do not screw around with the flavors. Leave them as they are.

Now if you want to have the flavor your own way then just accept the flavors for what they are and be happy with it.

For instance your character can be Amarr but it doesn't mean he has to support slavery. He realizes that its not something right to do but it's a reality he must live him in his society and its a part of his every day life. That's fine and dandy just respect the flavor rules.

Just had to get this out of my chest. Sorry again.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-01-19 15:08:54 UTC
I agree to some point with this, but I don't think we shouldn't fool around with the flavours. Learn well what each flavour is and playing around with it is a good way to get original characters that have something to say by themselves instead of repeating what's been said a dozen million times. Key to this is not necessarily a full respect of the idea of each nation, but a deep understanding of it and a mature and realistic character that, for different reasons, could have developed inside that mold.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-01-19 15:17:39 UTC
Well it's like I said. You can have the flavor your own way, you can add chips and nuts and some fudge too so you can play your character your own way.

However when it comes to faction/empire design, just respect the flavor rules. It doesn't mean your character has to play by their rules however it's a reality he has to live with.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#4 - 2013-01-19 17:09:15 UTC
The federation executed a guy by poisoning him with a sound sensitive agent, televised it, and then had the live studio audience literally clap him to death.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-01-19 17:15:14 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
The federation executed a guy by poisoning him with a sound sensitive agent, televised it, and then had the live studio audience literally clap him to death.


Your point?

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#6 - 2013-01-19 17:25:46 UTC
There is no such thing as a good guy in EVE. There aren't even people who are More Good Than Others.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-01-19 17:29:08 UTC
Faction design rules clearly disagree with you. About people all being the same though laughable would be pretty boring.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#8 - 2013-01-19 17:29:52 UTC
They aren't the same. They are all evil in different ways.
Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-01-19 17:38:17 UTC
I do agree that you gotta take your flavor and run with it, although I disagree with the notion that there is a 'bad' empire and a 'good' empire. Its gray meets gray all around.

The Amarr and caldari, for example, while their values are completely alien to the western world, this doesn't make them automatically evil per-say. Both of them value order beyond all else to the point of freedom being a hindrance to this. Both the Empire and the State are 'good' in the sense that they do as their values see as right. Just these values are so counter to our western culture values that they do come across as 'evil.'

The Minmatar and Gallente are easier... perhaps... for people to gel with because their values are alot more similar to our own.

This is likely why you see 'progressive' Amarrians role-played so often. Its an attempt for some to be true to their real world values but play Amarr. I must admit that if you look at my early early roleplaying from way back in 09, I fit into this category.

Anyway, I think that above everything, roleplaying these interesting and dynamic races requires leaving your own personal values at the door and adopting the values of the race your playing... After all you would have been raised with them and wouldn't know any other.

Amarrians value Faith, Order, and Tradition above all else. Concepts like freedom are alien and counter to their values entirely.

Caldari value Duty, Order, and Organization above all else. Concepts like self determination are alien and counter to their values entirely.

Gallente value Freedom, Liberty, and Individuality above all else. Although perhaps because of the individuality thing, Gallente RPers can get away with alot more than Amarrian or Caldari. Plus due to their hyper media saturation, its unlikely that any concept is going to be 'alien' to them.

Minmatar value Freedom, Tradition, and duty above all else. Similar to the Gallente's circumstances. Although many have had a healthy dose of Amarrian for obvious reasons.

Thats my take on it. As long as you center your characters values around what works for your empire (more important for Caldari or Amarrian) you can have plenty of creativity and still hold true to the Empire.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-01-19 17:40:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
They aren't the same. They are all evil in different ways.


So you believe that methods are all the same?

If I want to fight an enemy I would:

1)Cleanse a population and enslave survivors and people that surrender
2)Enter war with said planet due to revenge for atrocities they comitted in the past
3)Start a military and economic campaign to defeat the planet by sheer force and drying it up economically
4)Win the planet over through cultural/ideological warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power)
5)Abduct people from their homes in broad daylight and turn them into mindless sheep with no will of their own.

Are they equally evil?

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Jev North
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-01-19 17:41:47 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
Faction design rules

Wha'? There's rules? Why didn't anyone tell me this!

In any case - I actually agree with the main thrust of your argument, which seems to be that attempts to whitewash the dark sides of the EVE factions by people who've chosen to adopt them is kind of annoying. Unfortunately you seem to've failed to notice the beam in the Federation's eye, and expressed yourself in the most hyperbolic way possible on top of that; so hey, that point's probably going to get snowed under in the richly deserved roasting to come.

Better luck next time?

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-01-19 18:06:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
Just these values are so counter to our western culture values that they do come across as 'evil.'


I agree with most of what you said spot on. Of course an enslaver wouldn't see himself as evil as he would just believe he's doing god's work. However according to our own mindset (not of our characters) we would see them negatively. However there's people that are bothered by the fact their chosen faction is portrayed negactively in such a manner. CCP had a design in mind with all the factions to please people with different tastes and we should just stick with them.

The only thing I disagree with is the morality. I never claimed the Federation or the Republic to be saints but I do honestly believe they are indeed less evil than the other empires scaling historically speaking. That might just be me though.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-01-19 18:10:12 UTC
Jev North wrote:
Mekhana wrote:
Faction design rules

Wha'? There's rules? Why didn't anyone tell me this!

In any case - I actually agree with the main thrust of your argument, which seems to be that attempts to whitewash the dark sides of the EVE factions by people who've chosen to adopt them is kind of annoying. Unfortunately you seem to've failed to notice the beam in the Federation's eye, and expressed yourself in the most hyperbolic way possible on top of that; so hey, that point's probably going to get snowed under in the richly deserved roasting to come.

Better luck next time?


English is not my first language and as you should have noticed this is an international game. I hope you enjoyed your little ad hominen at my expense. However that won't stop me from expressing myself in the way that pleases me the most.

Good day sir.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-01-19 18:28:48 UTC
< insert long winded discussion about what makes something moral or not... 17 pages later and everyone left disappointed and unconvinced before lock >

< / insert long winded discussion about what makes something moral or not... 17 pages later and everyone left disappointed and unconvinced before lock >

Good discussion eh?

^_^
CCP Falcon
#15 - 2013-01-19 21:20:29 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Falcon
I don't want to burst anyone's bubble here, but there are no good guys, and no bad guys in New Eden.

Each of the four races can be summed up pretty simply, and none can be classed as good guys or bad guys when you look beneath the surface.

Look at all four races in depth, below what you see on the forward facing front, and you'll see that there's a million shades of grey within each of them.

Amarr Empire :

They're an Imperialist nation that base their entire society around their faith and religion. This doesn't make them inherently evil at all. It makes them dedicated to tradition and enriching their society by giving them something aspire to, somewhere to ascend to once their mortal bodies are of no more use in this world. The vast majority of Amarrians are simply churchgoing folks who get on with their lives without a care in the world. They say their prayers, they do their part, and they make sure that they be the best that they can be under the eyes of God.

On the other hand, there are the religious zealots among them. There are those who feel anyone not Amarr should be subjugated, and forced to live life as a slave, or a second class citizen. Their social system has a very distinct and divided set of classes. Money, power and your ability to mingle with those higher classes matters. Without it, you're consigned to a live in service of those above you on the social ladder. In the same respect, slavery is the norm, regardless of the bloodline you may come from, and human trafficking is rife.

The Amarr Military machine is enormous, and their Navy is the largest in the cluster, built on the back of billions of slaves through forced labor and overseen by some of the most hard lined religious fanatics in the cluster.

Caldari State :

Those who live in the Caldari State enjoy some of the most technologically advanced lives in the cluster. From the second you are born (or fished out of your vat, in the case of a tubechild) you are taught what it means to be Caldari. You're faced with learning thousands of years of tradition, culture and a deep rooted sense of respect for those who came before you. To be Caldari is a privilege, to serve the State is one of the greatest honors you can hope for.

On the flip side of the coin, while the State used to be a corporate meritocracy, it has de-evolved into being close to a fascist state under the iron-fisted rule of Tibus Heth. While before, it was a thriving, capitalist economic powerhouse among the Empires, under his rule it has began to erode, with warped delusions of grandeur that would no doubt leave those in the Raata Empire turning in their graves. Anything "un-Caldari" is shunned, racist hate against the Gallente is encouraged among the Patriots, and even in some instances the Practicals. The State is very much at war, and is suffering on all fronts under the draconian rule of an incompetent leader.

The Caldari Military is the smallest of the four main empires, but by far the most technologically advanced, and lies third only to the CONCORD Assembly and the Jovian Directorate in terms of capability. It is built on a backbone of honor and hard work, and every child is taught that to wear the colors of the State and defend it in battle is the highest honor a Caldari Citizen can achieve.

Gallente Federation :

From the outside, the Federation is a free man's dream. A democratic Federation of independent states that govern themselves beneath the oversight of a Federal Senate. Freedom of speech, liberty, and a huge melting pot of cultures from all over the cluster are the biggest powers that the Federation has. Glamour, showmanship and wealth are everything here, it is a nation of opportunity and people make what they will of themselves and work toward the dreams that they have.

From beneath though, The Federation is built on corrupt foundations. Under the glossy surface, there are issues with narcotics and corruption everywhere. Beneath the dream, the Federation is a narcissistic, hedonistic society that pushes itself to the extremes. Exploitation is everywhere, including within the government, and money talks. Along with this, there is a savage and highly racist Nationalist movement within the Federation. They are the hard lined nationalists found anywhere there's a mixture of cultures that can create a flash point.

In Military terms, the Federation lies just behind the State in terms of capability, but is much larger and benefits heavily from unmanned drone technologies. Still to this day, a large proportion of the Gallente Military relies upon advanced, unmanned hardware to make up for numbers where personnel can't. Serving the Federation and wearing their colors does of course grant you a very easy way up the social ladder, regardless of your social etiquette or ability.

Minmatar Republic :

The Republic is a deeply traditional tribal society, where every child is taught to wear the marks of their tribe with pride. Tribal culture, tradition and bonding is everything. While at times the tribes will lock horns and feud, their blood is what binds them together as a people, and there is no stronger people than the Matari. In terms of numbers, the Matari ethnic group is without a doubt the largest in the cluster, scattered all over New Eden. Over a fifth of all Matari reside within the Federation, and a huge proportion of them also still lie in bondage under the boot of the Amarr. Similarly they are also more often than not locked in fierce conflict with the Angel Cartel. In terms of depth, Matari culture is probably the most widespread and recognizable in the cluster, with some Gallente even taking on decorative elements of it such as tribal tattoo artwork and decoration as a sub-culture within the Federation.

On the other side though, the Republic is a violent, harsh society built on a diet of constant conflict and war. After being at odds with the Amarr for so long, the...

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Kahu ia Kane'ohe
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-01-19 21:49:53 UTC
There are bad guys... However, you can't associate the bad guys with their race, because there are much better examples of each races' citizens out there.

Guardian of the Land of Kings ~Sriracha Nighthawk's twin

Simon Louvaki
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#17 - 2013-01-19 22:03:21 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:


Caldari State :

Those who live in the Caldari State enjoy some of the most technologically advanced lives in the cluster. From the second you are born (or fished out of your vat, in the case of a tubechild) you are taught what it means to be Caldari. You're faced with learning thousands of years of tradition, culture and a deep rooted sense of respect for those who came before you. To be Caldari is a privilege, to serve the State is one of the greatest honors you can hope for.

On the flip side of the coin, while the State used to be a corporate meritocracy, it has de-evolved into being close to a fascist state under the iron-fisted rule of Tibus Heth. While before, it was a thriving, capitalist economic powerhouse among the Empires, under his rule it has began to erode, with warped delusions of grandeur that would no doubt leave those in the Raata Empire turning in their graves. Anything "un-Caldari" is shunned, racist hate against the Gallente is encouraged among the Patriots, and even in some instances the Practicals. The State is very much at war, and is suffering on all fronts under the draconian rule of an incompetent leader.

The Caldari Military is the smallest of the four main empires, but by far the most technologically advanced, and lies third only to the CONCORD Assembly and the Jovian Directorate in terms of capability. It is built on a backbone of honor and hard work, and every child is taught that to wear the colors of the State and defend it in battle is the highest honor a Caldari Citizen can achieve.


After reading the Empyrian Age I got the distinct feeling that Caldari society was faltering WAAAY before Heth ever came along, and in fact, Heth kind of gave the Caldari people a (very misguided) purpose that sprung their stagnant economy to heights it hasn't seen in years. The very fact that the Federation was even considering removing their own competition from Caldari Markets to stim the tide of State wide depression really goes against this idea that before Heth they were an economic powerhouse. From what I've seen, Heth is the only thing keeping the Caldari State together right now and is the driving factor in a resurgent economic power, and thats coming from someone who ISN'T a fan of Heth.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#18 - 2013-01-19 22:12:43 UTC
the art of good story telling is if you manage to create a bad guy which ends up having such clear and well thought out motives that he could be almost a good guy. If you don't do that you basically create a cartoon where the evil is just evil for the evils sake.

the problem with amarr is that slavery in such an advanced society is so evil that you have to find something very good to be still able to relate to that faction. And right now its very difficult IMO.

just my 2 c

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Simon Louvaki
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#19 - 2013-01-19 22:24:59 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
the art of good story telling is if you manage to create a bad guy which ends up having such clear and well thought out motives that he could be almost a good guy. If you don't do that you basically create a cartoon where the evil is just evil for the evils sake.

the problem with amarr is that slavery in such an advanced society is so evil that you have to find something very good to be still able to relate to that faction. And right now its very difficult IMO.

just my 2 c


Try diving into Amarrian lore to understand why they have slavery and the thought process behind it. Most people look and see 'Ah! slavery! BOOO' and never give a second thought to Amarrian culture and simply label them as your typical nutty, evil slavers in space but as it is, slavery itself is meant to be temporary and a pathway to God; its essentially a test of faith as the book called it. Through servitude one is suppose to reach some form of purity and a good holder is merely their Shepard and a slave themselves to Amaar. You must overcome your chains through faith and hard work to become free both physically and spiritually.

Really, you have to want to understand the Amarrians instead of wanting to vilify them. The book doesn't do a good job of conviencing most though and had I not played the game before I read the book I would have been put off entirely by the Empire. All I got from the book was that the Amarrians were hypocritic monsters who use drugs to enslave a race 'because they can' and they believe they should, rather than actually illuminating them outside the cartoonish villainy.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

CCP Falcon
#20 - 2013-01-19 22:49:19 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:


After reading the Empyrian Age I got the distinct feeling that Caldari society was faltering WAAAY before Heth ever came along, and in fact, Heth kind of gave the Caldari people a (very misguided) purpose that sprung their stagnant economy to heights it hasn't seen in years. The very fact that the Federation was even considering removing their own competition from Caldari Markets to stim the tide of State wide depression really goes against this idea that before Heth they were an economic powerhouse. From what I've seen, Heth is the only thing keeping the Caldari State together right now and is the driving factor in a resurgent economic power, and thats coming from someone who ISN'T a fan of Heth.


The Caldari people were fine, but the economy was on a very downward slope, hence the delegation that was sent out to meet with Ishukone in Malkalen.

Heth bolstered the economy a little, there's no doubt about that. However it didn't last, and he's created a lot of dissent among the Caldari people.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

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