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BPC Invention Question
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RichtPaul
Shadow Industries I
#1 - 2013-01-19 17:56:42 UTC
I'm a newb looking to invent some things for the marketplace. I got confused looking at the formula for getting the max runs out of a tier II BPC. I'm inventing ships and I've heard that you need to invent with a max-run BPC to get the max runs out of a tier II BPC.

So my question is how does something like 300 runs on a Tier 1 BPC translate into a Tier II BPC using a decoder that provides one run?

Thanks, hopefully I can figure this out and get some inventing done.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#2 - 2013-01-19 19:08:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
RichtPaul wrote:
I'm a newb looking to invent some things for the marketplace. I got confused looking at the formula for getting the max runs out of a tier II BPC. I'm inventing ships and I've heard that you need to invent with a max-run BPC to get the max runs out of a tier II BPC.

So my question is how does something like 300 runs on a Tier 1 BPC translate into a Tier II BPC using a decoder that provides one run?

Thanks, hopefully I can figure this out and get some inventing done.



Not tier ---- Tech 2

Tech II BPC's are invented from Tech I BPC's hopefully from max run copies.

With max Runs, no Tech II Invented BPC will only give 1 Run. There are many kinds of decoders, some increasing the Runs while nerfing Material Efficiency and vice versa, and many many other combinations.

TBH, instead of asking here, you seriously need to read a whole lot as the information is very complicated.

Here is a start: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Invention_101http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Invention_101

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Invention

But even reading it is different from practice, and posting about the issues you are having trouble with while making attempts is the better way. We can provide specific help more efficiently than general help.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
#3 - 2013-01-19 21:48:13 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
RichtPaul wrote:
I'm a newb looking to invent some things for the marketplace. I got confused looking at the formula for getting the max runs out of a tier II BPC. I'm inventing ships and I've heard that you need to invent with a max-run BPC to get the max runs out of a tier II BPC.

So my question is how does something like 300 runs on a Tier 1 BPC translate into a Tier II BPC using a decoder that provides one run?

Thanks, hopefully I can figure this out and get some inventing done.



Not tier ---- Tech 2

Tech II BPC's are invented from Tech I BPC's hopefully from max run copies.

With max Runs, no Tech II Invented BPC will only give 1 Run. There are many kinds of decoders, some increasing the Runs while nerfing Material Efficiency and vice versa, and many many other combinations.

TBH, instead of asking here, you seriously need to read a whole lot as the information is very complicated.

Here is a start: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Invention_101http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Invention_101

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Invention

But even reading it is different from practice, and posting about the issues you are having trouble with while making attempts is the better way. We can provide specific help more efficiently than general help.



In the case of ships and I think rigs, there will be only a resulting 1 run BPC. ALWAYS. Can only be multiple runs using a decryptor.

Decryptors are usually to expensive to add into the invention process when it comes to frigs, destroyers, some cruisers, modules, drones and ammo. When inventing some rigs and bigger ships it can be really profitable though. Make sure to do your math before introducing decryptors into the process.

OP, if u want some advice. Mail me and Ill help u any way I can
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#4 - 2013-01-19 22:11:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
With max Runs, no Tech II Invented BPC will only give 1 Run.

FYI, all tech 1 freighter BPO have a 1 run max copy limit, so jump freighter BPC always start at 1 run before decryptors are applied.

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/market.php?group_id=787
http://eve-online.itemdrop.net/eve_db/items/blueprint/freighter_blueprint/
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#5 - 2013-01-19 22:45:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
RichtPaul wrote:
I'm a newb looking to invent some things for the marketplace. I got confused looking at the formula for getting the max runs out of a tier II BPC. I'm inventing ships and I've heard that you need to invent with a max-run BPC to get the max runs out of a tier II BPC.

So my question is how does something like 300 runs on a Tier 1 BPC translate into a Tier II BPC using a decoder that provides one run?

Thanks, hopefully I can figure this out and get some inventing done.


With max Runs, no Tech II Invented BPC will only give 1 Run. There are many kinds of decoders, some increasing the Runs while nerfing Material Efficiency and vice versa, and many many other combinations.


The formula is:
Invention Output Runs = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (Input_T1_BPC_Runs / T1_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)

For Rigs:
Input_T1_BPC_Runs = 300
T1_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy = 300
T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy = 10

so:
MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (300 /300) * (10 / 10) + 0), 1), 10)

or:
1


The difference with a decryptor is a max run blueprint gives you 1 more run on rigs. ships are similar.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#6 - 2013-01-20 00:04:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Nad'x Hapax wrote:


In the case of ships and I think rigs, there will be only a resulting 1 run BPC. ALWAYS. Can only be multiple runs using a decryptor.




Edit: This information is in error, but I'm leaving it here for honesty's sake:



Nope.

Some decryptors have a negative run value, so the 'successful' Invention BPC would be zero or negative.

When Inventing Bustards and other t2 Transports, the default value is 3 Runs. Then + or - depending on the decryptor.

Please don't post on this subject unless you are SURE.

edit: This is excepting the Freighter Runs of course. Careful with the decryptor choice Smile

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#7 - 2013-01-20 00:07:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
With max Runs, no Tech II Invented BPC will only give 1 Run.

FYI, all tech 1 freighter BPO have a 1 run max copy limit, so jump freighter BPC always start at 1 run before decryptors are applied.

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/market.php?group_id=787
http://eve-online.itemdrop.net/eve_db/items/blueprint/freighter_blueprint/



I knew that but I am not going to cover every single exception in EVE, but thanks for the info anyway.

Edit ISD Ezwal: Please keep it polite.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
#8 - 2013-01-20 01:01:47 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Nad'x Hapax wrote:


In the case of ships and I think rigs, there will be only a resulting 1 run BPC. ALWAYS. Can only be multiple runs using a decryptor.



Nope.

Some decryptors have a negative run value, so the 'successful' Invention BPC would be zero or negative.


Huh?


Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
When Inventing Bustards and other t2 Transports, the default value is 3 Runs. Then + or - depending on the decryptor.

Please don't post on this subject unless you are SURE.


So what u mean to say is that if I use a 15 run badger Mark II with no decryptors I'd get a 3 run Bustard???
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#9 - 2013-01-20 01:04:52 UTC
Nad'x Hapax wrote:


So what u mean to say is that if I use a 15 run badger Mark II with no decryptors I'd get a 3 run Bustard???



Yup. I even have some I am not using I can give you.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
#10 - 2013-01-20 01:29:27 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Nad'x Hapax wrote:


So what u mean to say is that if I use a 15 run badger Mark II with no decryptors I'd get a 3 run Bustard???



Yup. I even have some I am not using I can give you.



Really sure? They have -4, -4?

And what about the negative run decryptors? Are u trolling me?
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#11 - 2013-01-20 01:42:10 UTC
Nad'x Hapax wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Nad'x Hapax wrote:


So what u mean to say is that if I use a 15 run badger Mark II with no decryptors I'd get a 3 run Bustard???



Yup. I even have some I am not using I can give you.



Really sure? They have -4, -4?

And what about the negative run decryptors? Are u trolling me?



I just looked at my BPC's and they have 3 runs. I use the Prototype Diagram decryptors which only give +1 Runs, as I'd rather have the better ME. That means the default is 2 Runs per BPC, so my mistake on that part saying 3 is default.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#12 - 2013-01-20 01:48:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Wait. Now you've got me wondering. My BPC have 3 runs each and 40% Wasteage. And if I used the +2 Decryptor, which is what that Wasteage sounds like, then the default would indeed be 1.

It's been well over 18 months since I've touched any of that.

There used to be a chart telling what that default was for each class of item, Ammo, Mods, Frigates, Cruisers, etc. But I can't seem to find it using Google.


edit: I guess my issue is that I never ever Invented without a Decryptor involved, so I've never seen what the default actually looks like.

2nd edit: My Manticore (T2 Frigate) BPC's have the 3 as well and I used a Decryptor, so indeed all T2 BPC for ships only give 1 Run.

Wow.

My Gas Cloud Harvester II BPCs have 10 Runs off of 100 Run T1 BPCs, so all agrees with Tau's formula below.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#13 - 2013-01-20 01:55:21 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Wait. Now you've got me wondering. My BPC have 3 runs each and 40% Wasteage. And if I used the +2 Decryptor, which is what that Wasteage sounds like, then the default would indeed be 1.

It's been well over 18 months since I've touched any of that.

There used to be a chart telling what that default was for each class of item, Ammo, Mods, Frigates, Cruisers, etc. But I can't seem to find it using Google.

1. Find the T2 BPO (see the links I posted above, or type the name of the BPO in chat and right-click link it)
2. Check the max runs.
3. Divide the max runs by 10. i.e. a T2 BPO with 500 runs will invent with a T1 BPC to at most a 50 run T2 BPC.
4. If your T1 BPC has N percent of max runs, you get N percent of that number. i.e. if your T1 BPC has 10% of max runs, you get 10% of the T2 BPC max.
5. Add any extra runs you get from the decrypter, if any, that is used
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
#14 - 2013-01-20 02:04:00 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Wait. Now you've got me wondering. My BPC have 3 runs each and 40% Wasteage. And if I used the +2 Decryptor, which is what that Wasteage sounds like, then the default would indeed be 1.

It's been well over 18 months since I've touched any of that.

There used to be a chart telling what that default was for each class of item, Ammo, Mods, Frigates, Cruisers, etc. But I can't seem to find it using Google.


edit: I guess my issue is that I never ever Invented without a Decryptor involved, so I've never seen what the default actually looks like.

2nd edit: My Manticore (T2 Frigate) BPC's have the 3 as well and I used a Decryptor, so indeed all T2 BPC for ships only give 1 Run.

Wow.

My Gas Cloud Harvester II BPCs have 10 Runs off of 100 Run T1 BPCs, so all agrees with Tau's formula below.



Ty cause u got me wondering aswell :P
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#15 - 2013-01-20 02:06:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
OMG it's a trip that's for sure.

I really really wish I could find that chart I used to have that had both the T2 default runs and the default chances of success for each type of item. It was really handy but is now buried under tons of forum references on a Google search unfortunately.

50,000,000 ISK to anyone who can find that old chart (It's a fancy graphical picture, not a typed text chart so no cheating that way).

edit: it even had a column for the chance values using a meta item.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Ch3m1c4L
New Haven Enterprises
#16 - 2013-01-20 02:44:51 UTC
go here http://www.isktheguide.com/#dwnl
download the guide in your language (version 1) and click on the "R&D" bit, then invention.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#17 - 2013-01-20 03:10:23 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
OMG it's a trip that's for sure.

I really really wish I could find that chart I used to have that had both the T2 default runs and the default chances of success for each type of item. It was really handy but is now buried under tons of forum references on a Google search unfortunately.

50,000,000 ISK to anyone who can find that old chart (It's a fancy graphical picture, not a typed text chart so no cheating that way).

edit: it even had a column for the chance values using a meta item.


If it included decryptors, it's probably a trifle out of date now.

They changed it back in, iirc, crucible, so that you no longer need a max run BPC for decryptors to be worthwhile.

As an aside, the invention calculator embedded in my blueprint calculator will tell you what the invention chance is. just click on 'Invention Material Requirements' to open it up. (I need to change that at some point, to make it more obvious. when I work out what works better)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#18 - 2013-01-20 03:32:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
OMG it's a trip that's for sure.

I really really wish I could find that chart I used to have that had both the T2 default runs and the default chances of success for each type of item. It was really handy but is now buried under tons of forum references on a Google search unfortunately.

50,000,000 ISK to anyone who can find that old chart (It's a fancy graphical picture, not a typed text chart so no cheating that way).

edit: it even had a column for the chance values using a meta item.


If it included decryptors, it's probably a trifle out of date now.

They changed it back in, iirc, crucible, so that you no longer need a max run BPC for decryptors to be worthwhile.

As an aside, the invention calculator embedded in my blueprint calculator will tell you what the invention chance is. just click on 'Invention Material Requirements' to open it up. (I need to change that at some point, to make it more obvious. when I work out what works better)



Yeah it would be out of date by this point as it was definitely 2010 when I got it. Where is the link to BP Calculator ?


edit: NVM. Clicked your sig P

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Ch3m1c4L
New Haven Enterprises
#19 - 2013-01-20 15:59:43 UTC
Krixtal, have you checked in the ISK guide thing i linked?
I have no idea if its out of date as I haven't started inventing yet, but it has tables in there of all the different decryptors for the different races, and the different interfaces. I would copy and paste the text but it loses all formatting and looks horrible on the forums.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#20 - 2013-01-20 18:05:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Ch3m1c4L wrote:
Krixtal, have you checked in the ISK guide thing i linked?
I have no idea if its out of date as I haven't started inventing yet, but it has tables in there of all the different decryptors for the different races, and the different interfaces. I would copy and paste the text but it loses all formatting and looks horrible on the forums.



Yes. But actually I checked it out last night on my old hard drive while we were in the middle of all that Lol before your mention. I thought the one I was looking for was in there but it's not. I have no idea where that chart was at all. But like Steve said it would be outdated anyway.

But I do recommend the more current information in ISK 3.0

But it's true that the formula does indeed give the number of default runs for a T2 BPC, it's would just be convenient to have it in chart form for quick reference so one isnt doing math to figure it out for Rigs, etc.


Edit: That Invention Calculator is excellent at Steve's site in his signature.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
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