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Plurimus Libertas
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Luna Mori
AmmuNacionale
#41 - 2013-01-18 11:15:08 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
I can only wonder how many people like Lyrah and myself these fools have created in their latest raid. How surprised they will be when those guns that they're handing out get turned back upon them? They're think they're strengthening their little junta, but all they're really doing is setting themselves up for a revolution of the Faithful within their own borders.


For every two who think they were wronged and would desperately want to return to the bosom of the Empire there must be hundreds of thousands who would embrace freedom and the new possibilities ahead.

General Secretary, Ani Tribal Assembly
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2013-01-18 11:26:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
Luna Mori wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
I can only wonder how many people like Lyrah and myself these fools have created in their latest raid. How surprised they will be when those guns that they're handing out get turned back upon them? They're think they're strengthening their little junta, but all they're really doing is setting themselves up for a revolution of the Faithful within their own borders.


For every two who think they were wronged and would desperately want to return to the bosom of the Empire there must be hundreds of thousands who would embrace freedom and the new possibilities ahead.


That's a big assumption.

Most of these slaves will have been born and raised in the Mandate or the Empire. Many will have no idea about conditions in the Republic. A lot probably aren't even Minmatar.

And yet the Shakorite government and their EM minions have decided that they know what's best for them.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Luna Mori
AmmuNacionale
#43 - 2013-01-18 13:09:23 UTC
I was being conservative with my estimate and had originally wanted to make an even bigger assumption. Maybe some details will emerge in the near future.

Freedom Extension, not the Republic government, along with EM are the parties involved, I think, and have the necessary power and resources to facilitate this. The welfare and eventual resettlement of these people must be very high on their agenda. An operation like this, along with the raid itself, for a small city-sized population must have taken a great deal of thought and planning.

General Secretary, Ani Tribal Assembly
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#44 - 2013-01-18 13:24:01 UTC
Luna Mori wrote:


Freedom Extension, not the Republic government, along with EM are the parties involved, I think, and have the necessary power and resources to facilitate this. The welfare and eventual resettlement of these people must be very high on their agenda. An operation like this, along with the raid itself, for a small city-sized population must have taken a great deal of thought and planning.


A great deal of planning, not a great deal of thought.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Joantir Sintar
Hannas Deep Space Probing And Exploration
DammFam
#45 - 2013-01-18 13:29:54 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:


And yet the Shakorite government and their EM minions have decided that they know what's best for them.


And that's no different to the Empire or Mandate knowing what's best for them?

Atlas Zao-tsu
Doomheim
#46 - 2013-01-18 14:09:41 UTC
Joantir Sintar wrote:


And that's no different to the Empire or Mandate knowing what's best for them?



Would you be comfortable if the answer was no, it's the same?
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#47 - 2013-01-18 14:15:34 UTC
Joantir Sintar wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:


And yet the Shakorite government and their EM minions have decided that they know what's best for them.


And that's no different to the Empire or Mandate knowing what's best for them?




The difference is that the Empire (and by extension the Mandate) does know what's best for them.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#48 - 2013-01-18 16:10:23 UTC
Luna Mori wrote:
I was being conservative with my estimate and had originally wanted to make an even bigger assumption. Maybe some details will emerge in the near future.

Freedom Extension, not the Republic government, along with EM are the parties involved, I think, and have the necessary power and resources to facilitate this. The welfare and eventual resettlement of these people must be very high on their agenda. An operation like this, along with the raid itself, for a small city-sized population must have taken a great deal of thought and planning.


Here we encounter the difference between deeds and tasks. The raid was a deed, no doubt it required anywhere close to a month of planning, preparation and practice for the prime instigator(s). It then took something like a day or two to set up and execute. And now the deed is done.

A deed, once done, is done. But the responsibilities inherent in feeding, housing, educating, paying and organising this many people is a task. Tasks, when done, return afresh the very next morning. Doing a deed and continuously completing a task require very different resources, mindsets, funding and preparations.

I would add that these freed slaves would not be the first to be gloriously and bravely seized and then abandoned on some run-down and unfunded rats nest to be left to their own devices. It is, in fact, virtually a stereotype of the Republic to do so.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-01-18 16:12:59 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
The difference is that the Empire (and by extension the Mandate) does know what's best for them.


Which is still no less a matter of opinion than the Republic claiming the same. The difference is that if the slaves really want to leave the Republic, they can.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2013-01-18 16:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Sepherim
Luna Mori wrote:
Freedom Extension, not the Republic government, along with EM are the parties involved, I think, and have the necessary power and resources to facilitate this. The welfare and eventual resettlement of these people must be very high on their agenda. An operation like this, along with the raid itself, for a small city-sized population must have taken a great deal of thought and planning.


Right, because they've been doing so well up to now in taking care of every need of their population and groups of freed slaves.

Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Which is still no less a matter of opinion than the Republic claiming the same. The difference is that if the slaves really want to leave the Republic, they can.


To be able to leave the Republic they'd need ressources to buy a travel passage to wherever they'd wish to go, which is probably rather close to impossible taking into account they've been taken away from everything they had. So they'd need a work to gather the money, which in turn would require time, and for time they'd need feeding, housing, etc.

Taking into account that there aren't precisely those many jobs for ex-slaves in a Republic already saturated from freed slaves, I hardly think they would be able to start such a process. So that freedom (if it even were positive, which I don't think) is actually more fiction than truth.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#51 - 2013-01-18 16:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Luna Mori wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
I can only wonder how many people like Lyrah and myself these fools have created in their latest raid. How surprised they will be when those guns that they're handing out get turned back upon them? They're think they're strengthening their little junta, but all they're really doing is setting themselves up for a revolution of the Faithful within their own borders.


For every two who think they were wronged and would desperately want to return to the bosom of the Empire there must be hundreds of thousands who would embrace freedom and the new possibilities ahead.


Mrs. Mori,

I don't want to presume to know you, but have you ever been a slave? Most of these people have spent their entire lives within the institution of slavery with every basic need of life fulfilled, and at that their entire family line has up to a point. A more correct estimate would more likely be 'for every two who desire freedom there are thousands who would rather just be left alone'. This is the most apolitical and logical approach given they generally have no notion of what 'freedom' is. How does one desire something they have no notion of? spend some time among the people on these worlds, rather than just looking down at them from your camera drones. There is certainly greatness that many have that is being squandered, and if they wish to be free then they have every right to be so, but as usual, these 'liberation' efforts aren't taking stock of who wish's to leave and who doesn't.

You yourself verified that thought by simply assuming everyone you 'free' should want it.

Shouldn't EM and Freedom Extension be focusing their efforts on providing for the Matari people and former slaves of the Ninth Generation at home the support they need rather than fueling the already poor situation by flooding even more people into the broken system?

Respectfully,

Simon Louvaki

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2013-01-18 20:49:01 UTC
I wont take sides in how this was done, and if it were the right or wrong way

But as iwe been studying human history... i think some underestimate the power of the human imagination and mind, it might been nine generations, but what is said in whispers, becomes a tale, and will linger on through generations, it might be in the end far from the truth and reality, but considering how this was done, it only feels logical that many of those freed were part in organicing this from their side, you cant just gather up that many people on such short time unless there is atleast some organising factor...
No Mauk'Ob
Murientor Tribe
#53 - 2013-01-19 04:01:03 UTC
I commend Freedom Extension and EM on this operation.

A pity no Ammatar or their Ammar Handlers were killed in the process... but I suppose you take what you can get.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#54 - 2013-01-19 04:31:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Fey Ivory wrote:
I wont take sides in how this was done, and if it were the right or wrong way

But as iwe been studying human history... i think some underestimate the power of the human imagination and mind, it might been nine generations, but what is said in whispers, becomes a tale, and will linger on through generations, it might be in the end far from the truth and reality, but considering how this was done, it only feels logical that many of those freed were part in organicing this from their side, you cant just gather up that many people on such short time unless there is atleast some organising factor...


Of course, but then again, I believe the Elder Fleet struck with quite single handedly with just a few plants within the Ammatar government. If I recall correctly, the Mandate's Governor even had to reassure the people that the invaders were there to 'free' them and encouraged them not to fight the invading fleet which suggests such operations are not always done with knowing consent of the population. My intention at heart, however, was only discovering what was to become of these people now that they have been taken from Ammatar space.

It takes more than just releasing someone from the physical bonds of slavery to make someone free. Without proper education and reintroduction into Matari society, these people may as well have remained within the Empire; she would have been a far kinder mistress than the cold and unforgiving 'freedom' of the market.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Flavius Arcturus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2013-01-19 09:03:54 UTC
von Khan wrote:
The first sign of corruption in a society is that the end justifies the means, and this is a fine example.

I wish to pledge my support to all the victims of this crime. From wherever refugee camp they get dumped into, I will offer safe passage to rejoin their loved ones back home.



I will surely second this. The rash actions have been carried out with no consideration to those being kidnapped *erhem* "liberated". These men and women you've freed will end up in a refugee camp, in squalid conditions, and with little to no resources. I will gladly assist in returning these kidnapped individuals to their homes to be reunited with their loved ones.

"There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do not believe." - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10
Luna Mori
AmmuNacionale
#56 - 2013-01-19 11:14:49 UTC
Flavius Arcturus wrote:
von Khan wrote:
The first sign of corruption in a society is that the end justifies the means, and this is a fine example.

I wish to pledge my support to all the victims of this crime. From wherever refugee camp they get dumped into, I will offer safe passage to rejoin their loved ones back home.


I will surely second this. The rash actions have been carried out with no consideration to those being kidnapped *erhem* "liberated". These men and women you've freed will end up in a refugee camp, in squalid conditions, and with little to no resources. I will gladly assist in returning these kidnapped individuals to their homes to be reunited with their loved ones.



There are at least three schemes which take rescued, freed, liberated, or stolen slaves and provide welfare, shelter, reintegration, repatriation, etc. I have seen one and it did not look like a refugee camp. It was not squalid and had plenty of resources. It used the very latest Smartfab technology to provide accommodation. There were herds of livestock; a well-stocked medical centre; food and water. All of which is provided by capsuleer donations. The people did not look lost, like children. Instead they looked intent, purposeful, and keen to be independent. They looked hopeful.

The idea that these people cannot cope without you is almost laughable. That is what must really scare slavers. Discovering that those children you love so much - who can't possibly survive without your grace and guidance, actually can. It must be crushing to realise that your love simply wasn't enough, or that it is unwanted. There's a hole, in your life.

General Secretary, Ani Tribal Assembly
Flavius Arcturus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2013-01-19 12:19:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Flavius Arcturus
Luna Mori wrote:
Flavius Arcturus wrote:
von Khan wrote:
The first sign of corruption in a society is that the end justifies the means, and this is a fine example.

I wish to pledge my support to all the victims of this crime. From wherever refugee camp they get dumped into, I will offer safe passage to rejoin their loved ones back home.


I will surely second this. The rash actions have been carried out with no consideration to those being kidnapped *erhem* "liberated". These men and women you've freed will end up in a refugee camp, in squalid conditions, and with little to no resources. I will gladly assist in returning these kidnapped individuals to their homes to be reunited with their loved ones.



There are at least three schemes which take rescued, freed, liberated, or stolen slaves and provide welfare, shelter, reintegration, repatriation, etc. I have seen one and it did not look like a refugee camp. It was not squalid and had plenty of resources. It used the very latest Smartfab technology to provide accommodation. There were herds of livestock; a well-stocked medical centre; food and water. All of which is provided by capsuleer donations. The people did not look lost, like children. Instead they looked intent, purposeful, and keen to be independent. They looked hopeful.

The idea that these people cannot cope without you is almost laughable. That is what must really scare slavers. Discovering that those children you love so much - who can't possibly survive without your grace and guidance, actually can. It must be crushing to realise that your love simply wasn't enough, or that it is unwanted. There's a hole, in your life.



OF COURSE the great and giving federation and republic gave those you victimized the VERY BEST that you had to offer. Please, while I've heard many fanciful tales on the IGS, this one, this one takes the cake. You must remember, I've done my share of traveling outside of The Empire. I've seen the camps and their deplorable conditions. I'm sure you love pumping those lies into your libertine populace but that isn't going to work on a citizen of The Amarr Empire, as we haven't managed to destroy our cognitive function with illicit substances. You've no need to grandstand here.

As I'm not the only Imperial here who takes issue with this violation of The Empire, The MAndate, and the victims, I propose this. Offering to finance the return of the poor souls to their families is no doubt a giving and apropriate measure. However, is it enough? How will they survive while they wait for transport? How will they eat, bathe, aquire new clothing, and where will they find decent shelter? How will they be able to freely worship God in a land so heartily opposed to God? The fact of the matter, my fellow Faithful, is that they wont able able to adequately do any of the above.

Simply paying a courier vessel to complete the task is also inadequate. What of the victims protection? Can you really know what the savage and heretical Galentians and Minmatar will do to the ships carrying those returning to the homes and prosperous lives they were stolen from? I for one believe that they won't permit it to happen, that they'd rather destroy the vessel and the souls on board then permit them to return to their homes. That the Amatarr returning to their homes would fly in the face of everything they believe, and have been telling any drug addle-brained sod who would listen. So, I propose this:

WE transport them home. WE provide the ships, the escorts, and the comfort that these kidnap victims deserve. I myself have several cruisers, and a solid complement of destroyers and frigates to lend to this endeavor. Together, we can return them home.

"There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do not believe." - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#58 - 2013-01-19 13:06:36 UTC
Luna Mori wrote:


There are at least three schemes which take rescued, freed, liberated, or stolen slaves and provide welfare, shelter, reintegration, repatriation, etc. I have seen one and it did not look like a refugee camp. It was not squalid and had plenty of resources. It used the very latest Smartfab technology to provide accommodation. There were herds of livestock; a well-stocked medical centre; food and water. All of which is provided by capsuleer donations. The people did not look lost, like children. Instead they looked intent, purposeful, and keen to be independent. They looked hopeful.


It is good to know that you saw one.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#59 - 2013-01-19 13:28:53 UTC
Luna Mori wrote:
There are at least three schemes which take rescued, freed, liberated, or stolen slaves and provide welfare, shelter, reintegration, repatriation, etc.


The first of which being to force them into military service for the Republic. The second is "re-education camps" where they get programmed into proper little patridiots. The third is the mass execution of those who refuse to bend or break.

Luna Mori wrote:
I have seen one and it did not look like a refugee camp. It was not squalid and had plenty of resources.


No argument there. The training camps & staitons they dragged me around were never lacking for equipment, but then again the military is like, what, 90% of the Republic's budget or something?

Luna Mori wrote:
It used the very latest Smartfab technology to provide accommodation.


Really? Who'd you steal it from?

Luna Mori wrote:
There were herds of livestock;


No, those were your men. Oink oink grunt ohh Grok get big mirroshades! Grok look cool! Urg gah smash Amarr grunt ooof!

Luna Mori wrote:
a well-stocked medical centre; food and water. All of which is provided by capsuleer donations.


Because God forbid the Republic government spend 0.10 ISK on keeping non-military personnel in good health.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#60 - 2013-01-19 13:29:07 UTC
Luna Mori wrote:
The people did not look lost, like children. Instead they looked intent, purposeful, and keen to be independent. They looked hopeful.


Smile for the camera kiddies if you want to eat sometime this week!

Hmm, I wonder if they stuck all the footage they had of me during my forced conscription down the propaganda department's memory hole yet out of embarrassment or if it's still out there somewhere? Just because it would be funny to see the footage of "See this bright young Brutor girl, freed from a life of slavery and bondage as she trains to be a capsuleer pilot for the mighty Republic, to go forth and free her comrades in chains back in the evil Empire!" I'd get a real kick out of splicing that together with the gun-cam footage of the Republic ships I blew up crossing the border back home to the Mandate, and then, oh I dunno, turn it into a holo-display for the Jarizza memorial where my parents were buried.

Luna Mori wrote:
The idea that these people cannot cope without you is almost laughable. That is what must really scare slavers. Discovering that those children you love so much - who can't possibly survive without your grace and guidance, actually can. It must be crushing to realise that your love simply wasn't enough, or that it is unwanted. There's a hole, in your life.


Funny, I was just going to say the same thing about you.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0