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Dread blapping

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Ayeson
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-01-18 22:46:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayeson
Chitsa Jason wrote:
Dread blaping is a serious issue for groups who are going proactive. The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates.

Dread shoud be feared weapon against capitals or battleships.


"Going proactive" Can you define that? I'm not familiar with that terminology.

Also, Why should dreads not be able to hit other ships when they are appropriately covered by TP's and Webs? Don't those modules exist solely to allow guns to hit vessels for higher damage?

I ♥ the orthrus
Phaderift
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#22 - 2013-01-18 22:51:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaderift
Ayeson wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
Dread blaping is a serious issue for groups who are going proactive. The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates.

Dread shoud be feared weapon against capitals or battleships.


"Going proactive" Can you define that? I'm not familiar with that terminology.



Going to go out on a limb and say that it supposed to be aggressive or groups who will try and provoke fights with others. Referencing that whole maximum 3 caps from the attacking side due to mass limits and the home fleet can bring 30. It becomes really hard to get a fight you stand a chance in. mass limits make attacking or provoking a Gud fite hard as once you reach mass limit the attacker can't escalate anymore, hell they can't even reship to keep the fight going or reship to change comps to adapt to what has been presented from the other side on grid.

Edit. Provocative groups
Winthorp
#23 - 2013-01-18 22:51:50 UTC
Ayeson wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
Dread blaping is a serious issue for groups who are going proactive. The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates.

Dread shoud be feared weapon against capitals or battleships.


"Going proactive" Can you define that? I'm not familiar with that terminology.


It means when they go raoming with their T3 fleet and encounter a subcab fleet with a Moros, they don't want to have to send some home to reship.
Ayeson
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-01-18 22:55:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayeson
Winthorp wrote:

It means when they go raoming with their T3 fleet and encounter a subcab fleet with a Moros, they don't want to have to send some home to reship.


I was hoping for chitsa to define it, using his own words, but thank you nonetheless for your response.

If you're looking for a completely proactive fleet, you better have 20+ guys in every flavor of T3, ready to Web, TP, Scram, Neut and Jam and do absolutely whatever, whenever, to anyone, anytime, in wormhole space.

This sounds more like a "I dont want my fleet to come up against a dread and not have the EWAR to take out his lokis." Simple solution for a proactive fleet? Bring more EWAR.

That's what TL did to kill our 2 dreads VS their 1, and it worked out fairly well for them. Seeing as we all died in a fire.

I ♥ the orthrus
Diego Sarmoti
AQUILA INC
#25 - 2013-01-18 23:09:05 UTC
Ayeson wrote:


Also, Why should dreads not be able to hit other ships when they are appropriately covered by TP's and Webs? Don't those modules exist solely to allow guns to hit vessels for higher damage?



I think the question that you are looking for is "why bring anything else other than TP's and webs (plus moros)?" Also, if I recall, even down to T3 hulls, if they hit mwd and aren't at high transversal, they get pwned without being webbed/tp'ed. It's been a while since i goofed around on sisi with it... in the end, the take away is train the moros or don't bother.

Say aren't you an icky nag pilot? ;p
Ayeson
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-01-18 23:40:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayeson
Diego Sarmoti wrote:

I think the question that you are looking for is "why bring anything else other than TP's and webs (plus moros)?" Also, if I recall, even down to T3 hulls, if they hit mwd and aren't at high transversal, they get pwned without being webbed/tp'ed. It's been a while since i goofed around on sisi with it... in the end, the take away is train the moros or don't bother.

Say aren't you an icky nag pilot? ;p


Tower of Win!

Also, why wouldn't you keep transversal on a dread? :P

and once you're under the dread's guns, they can't hit you anyway.

I ♥ the orthrus
MadbaM
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2013-01-18 23:46:15 UTC  |  Edited by: MadbaM
Diego Sarmoti wrote:

Say aren't you an icky nag pilot? ;p


Of course he is, he loves that thing more than his own family.

Dread blappage is only a problem for one WH situation and that's evictions nothing else, for all other WH engagements there are plenty of steps you can take to neutralize a dreads ability to put out its full DPS. But i do agree there is huge disparity between the moros and all the other dreads that someone may need to look at.
Diego Sarmoti
AQUILA INC
#28 - 2013-01-18 23:47:59 UTC
Ayeson wrote:


Tower of Win!

Also, why wouldn't you keep transversal on a dread? :P

and once you're under the dread's guns, they can't hit you anyway.


Well, if there are more than one dread on field and they aren't sitting on top of one another of course. Big smile
Tisisan
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#29 - 2013-01-19 02:59:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tisisan
Chitsa Jason wrote:
The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates.


And yet, isn't that the very point of the target painter module? If CCP thinks its a good idea to have a module in game that increases sig radius, you can hardly complain when a small ship gets turned into a big ship.

Edit: missed page two.... "great minds" I guess Ayeson.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#30 - 2013-01-19 04:08:14 UTC
I really don't see the issue. If they have web lokis, just shut them down (ewar) and you have no problems. It's not some impossible problem to solve. If TL can do it, like Ayeson said, you guys have no excuse P

Honestly, CCP should focus on more pressing concerns, like POSs.

No trolling please
Omen Nihilo
Omen Holdings
#31 - 2013-01-19 04:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Omen Nihilo
A Moros warps in at 30-40km and it doesn't matter whether or not you're webbed. It'll still get a lucky shot and alpha right through you. Also, in my opinion you should never be forced to counter with ecm—there should always be something else you can do. Just my opinion.

Of course it's not like you can't ever take on a dread supported fleet. But your opponents have to be ******** and warp them right on top of you or something. There's pretty much nothing you can do if they come in at range.

The way to get fights in w-space now is to somehow trick your opponents into a position in which you have the upper hand (which is pretty much synonymous with "having more dreads"). I just wish w-space pvp could become tactics/skill-based again instead of this positioning BS.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#32 - 2013-01-19 04:52:30 UTC
Maybe the key is to not allow caps in wh space at all. Problem solved!

No trolling please
Winthorp
#33 - 2013-01-19 05:03:33 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Maybe the key is to not allow caps in wh space at all. Problem solved!



May as well, people seem to think you shouldn't be "forced" to bring ships you don't want to bring....

I do agree it has been going down the wrong road with cap fights lending to many blue balled fights, but to say its the dreads fault is like pissing in the wind.
Omen Nihilo
Omen Holdings
#34 - 2013-01-19 05:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Omen Nihilo
Of course it's not solely because of dreads. With several TPs and webs I think they should be able to hit cruisers—though maybe not for full damage. They should remain a serious threat. I think home advantage should stay. But right now their ability to hit T3s is just ridiculous.

In general w-space fighting has become very formulaic. Fleet comp is king and piloting skill plays too small a role. I agree that fleet comp is crucial, but these days it's rare to find a battle where piloting skill actually could make a difference. It's all about what ships were brought.

I'd like to see more variety in fleet comps and less reliance on capital ships. Again, just my opinion.

@Winthorp, do I really need to explain to you why I shouldn't be forced to bring ecm? Roll

Anyways, I'm tired and rambling...
AutumnWind1983
Reboot Required
#35 - 2013-01-19 06:16:39 UTC
Diego Sarmoti wrote:
To me it is more of a dread balancing issue than anything else. Why would one dread do 50% more dps than the next best dread and still be able to track better? Why is one dread completely worthless and the nag just marginally better?


I think this gets to the heart of the matter. Compared to the other dreads the Moros is ridiculous, with the Rev decent and the other two being just sad.

Omen Nihilo wrote:
@Winthorp, do I really need to explain to you why I shouldn't be forced to bring ecm? Roll

Anyways, I'm tired and rambling...


I'd like to hear it. Why shouldn't you have to bring a well rounded fleet comp?

Ayeson wrote:
If you're looking for a completely proactive fleet, you better have 20+ guys in every flavor of T3, ready to Web, TP, Scram, Neut and Jam and do absolutely whatever, whenever, to anyone, anytime, in wormhole space.


I think Ayesons is right, if you want to bring a fight with the current meta you need to have all the tools available with a well rounded fleet.

At the end of the day I think you should need to bring a well rounded fleet and that the Moros is a bit out of line with the other dreads. You also have to be willing to take losses and punch above your weight.

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-01-19 06:36:21 UTC
Ayeson wrote:
and once you're under the dread's guns, they can't hit you anyway.


yeah, except it can hit you quite easily with support, even in a tight orbit.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Rhavas
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#37 - 2013-01-19 07:30:46 UTC
Random Woman wrote:
There is a dread, there is a loki with webs and targetpainters, and then everything else just dies.

That would be fine, however through the nature of wormholes it's rather had to fight at the other guys place, because you have 3 caps max, and they normally have 10+. So unless you plan your visit many weeks ahead - well lets say things can get ugly fast.


I'm not sure why this is a problem. Yes, it takes some actual work and planning. But it can be done by any similar-sized corp that decides to do so. I suspect if you ask the big boys in nullsec they would also tell you that taking things over requires planning and if you don't plan, things get ugly fast.

No problem - it's called strategy & tactics. It's not a lowsec roam.

Author of Interstellar Privateer Shattered Planets, Wormholes and Game Commentary
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-01-19 08:09:50 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Honestly, CCP should focus on more pressing concerns, like POSs.


this is very true

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-01-19 10:21:31 UTC
Really? Wtf is this thread? When has dread blapping t3s become a serious issue for us in Exhale personally? As said already, ecm tengus with minmatar jammers...there are a lot of other issues which should be addressed about dreads such as the moros being completely OP. This thread is silly
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-01-19 11:51:00 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
Dread blaping is a serious issue for groups who are going proactive. The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates.

Dread shoud be feared weapon against capitals or battleships.


So basically dreads shouldn't be used in pvp, just structure bashing?

Doesn't make much sense to me.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...