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Dread blapping

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AdoudelA
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-01-18 15:19:40 UTC
Hi all!

When I was reading today the CSM minutes I came by this part:

"Nearing the end of the meeting, Two step brought up the issue of Dread blapping in wormhole space.
This sparked an informal discussion to determine if the issue was the Dreads themselves, or just a
byproduct of wormhole combat. No meaningful solution was devised in a short time, but Fozzie added
that he would keep an eye on Dread blapping in wormhole space in particular."

So my question would be: What is Dread blapping precisely and why is it something that must be looked at?

Thank for the answers in advance.
Rasmus Endashi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-01-18 15:37:13 UTC
Those two questions are exactly what came to mind when I read the csm minutes pdf .

I asked a veteran wormhole dweller about it's meaning and got the answer that it's basicly the usual way dreads are used to farm sleeper sites, web+dread = sleeper bs goes down fast.

So if this is true, then I also would like to know what is the exact problem with this method and why would it should be treated as an issue and why it would be better without this possibility?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-01-18 15:40:57 UTC
Who knows?

The community and Two step seem to has different opinions as to what is a problem and what is not. At a guess, i think he is talking about the difficulty in fighting someone in their home system, where they have an overwhelming number of dreads.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Random Woman
Very Professional Corporation
#4 - 2013-01-18 15:42:16 UTC
There is a dread, there is a loki with webs and targetpainters, and then everything else just dies.

That would be fine, however through the nature of wormholes it's rather had to fight at the other guys place, because you have 3 caps max, and they normally have 10+. So unless you plan your visit many weeks ahead - well lets say things can get ugly fast.
Abis Cann
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#5 - 2013-01-18 16:36:25 UTC
I'd like to see this explained as well. Dread blappage is as described above, but the fact that Two step sees it as a problem is disconcerting.
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-01-18 16:59:51 UTC
No POSes, T3s nerf, now this... Somebody wants wh dwellers to die in a fire.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#7 - 2013-01-18 17:55:29 UTC
My issue with dread blapping is that there isn't a counter to it other than "bring more stuff". I am fine with dreads killing caps and battleships, but if I show up in small sig cruisers, dreads shouldn't be dominant.

FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-01-18 18:20:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Don't you have to web sub BS's for dreads to consistently get good hits?

I guess the counter would be to ECM, neut or kill anyone using a web against you.

Whether people use dreads or vindicators, a well prepared and well manned group will always have the home advantage. Unless CCP introduce the dreaded wormhole generator/stabilised. Twisted

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#9 - 2013-01-18 18:24:10 UTC
I'm not sure why someone willing to field so many billions in ISK on the field and having the dedicated pilots to do so shouldn't be able to hold a very strong defensive advantage in their own home system. People kind of care about their home.
Xtover
Cold Moon Destruction.
#10 - 2013-01-18 19:12:17 UTC
Random Woman wrote:
because you have 3 caps max, and they normally have 10+. So unless you plan your visit many weeks ahead - well lets say things can get ugly fast.


I have to disagree and agree. You can't just come into another home (especially of an established alliance) with whole fleet, but it's possible to seed in many caps in a short time period with a proper prober and the ability to roll.
Ayeson
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#11 - 2013-01-18 19:21:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayeson
Two step wrote:
My issue with dread blapping is that there isn't a counter to it other than "bring more stuff". I am fine with dreads killing caps and battleships, but if I show up in small sig cruisers, dreads shouldn't be dominant.

FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters.


Personally, I don't find dread's shooting stationary targets like they were designed to do a problem, in fact, I would say the game is working as intended. Why would you want to punish a dread pilot for doing what he bought a dread to do, which is shoot stationary targets, especially when said stationary target might have a pilot in it. Nobody has problems with dreads shooting at ships in null, especially when they have web support, why should dreads perform differently in wormholes? Just because you got webbed down to zero and had your sig blow up to the size of a BS because of a TP, doesn't mean that dreads are OP.

Reasonable counter: ECM Tengus to jam the lokis (not sure how the new comp skills affect weather the ECM gu is dead or not but it worked pre-revelation) or Neuting Legions to nuke their cap and then the rest of your fleet kills the dreads sans support. Seeing as the dreads wont be able to instalock you in a T3, you can jam/neut their loki support and once they lose their support fleet they have no chance of hitting your T3's as long as you get under their guns and keep transversal up.

Hypothetically speaking, if you brought double the amount of people they had like you said earlier, with an ECM ship for each loki, you could lock down every loki on the field and as long as your transversal was kept up or you got under the guns, you wouldn't have an issue avoiding those dread guns. Also, if you were bringing 2x, you might as well bring neuts too, so you can cap em out.

Just my 2c as a person who's been on both sides of the coin.

I ♥ the orthrus
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#12 - 2013-01-18 19:27:08 UTC
WH space isn't 'easy mode'. Folks have been complaining since I first sub'd to eve. There will always be complaints. Most complaints are driven by folks that want to make what they do in eve easier and more on their terms. I agree it's impossible to take down a major wh system on one go through a wh. Good. That isn't broken, it's a necessary safegard for the wh way of life.

Think it through folks. There are a lot of null entries into wh space. Nullbears don't want to have to plan and invest time and resources into sacking a c5 wh. They just want it now. Screw that! Keep it difficult. If folks in wh space want 'the life' to be easy, then please take your 'easier ideas' and leave. Really - go away.

The 'it promotes the more is better/required' argument is true and has merit, but very little compared to the pandoras box you open when you move high end wh sacking toward 'easy mode'. The only way to survive will be to become large and bloated cows like Transmission Lost (still love you guys - except bane of course). You'll lose the 'mom and pop' feel to wh space and make it the realm of large organizations only. Let's think of the little guys too, since they are the greater in number. We bang on eve coders all the time for not thinking things through - let's not be a part of the problem.

Two Step - I luvs ya man - no kidding. You've done a lot for eve in general and the wh community in specific. Sadly I'll say it loud - you are wrong on this one. You seem to have trouble seeing eve and wh space through the eyes of the little guy from way up in the aharm throne room. Many systems have 5 or fewer dreads and quite a few less folks than aharm does living in their wh. Changing the blapability factor and allowing wh invasions in 'quick and easy mode' will pretty much put an end to all the smaller guys scraping out a living in wh space.

Again - anyone who wants wh space to be easier - please leave. (I hear they have missions in Motsu that are pretty easy)

Lost
Mia Restolo
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2013-01-18 19:39:04 UTC
The first counter to stopping dread blapping is killing or at least nullifying the lokis/webbers through DPS or ewar, the second is bringing in Bhaalgorns or other neut ships, the third is more dreads or overwhelming numbers. Seems like a lot of options to me, especially effective if you do them all at once. I don't know why a fleet composition requiring multiple well coordinated pilots and a good FC should be considered a problem.

If someone is going to attack a WH corp on their home turf they should be at a disadvantage without careful planning and scouting especially if its an eviction. Moving in a dozen caps could take a few hours or a few days which isn't that long but it is a pain. Ganking a fleet doing escalations is already pretty easy to do with a reasonably sized and organized gang. We're talking billions worth of fleet assets on both sides here, so if you're not scouting and planning you're doing it wrong. Throwing kitchen sink fleets at dreads only works if you get really lucky... as it should be.
chris elliot
Seal Club Six
Plug N Play
#14 - 2013-01-18 19:43:21 UTC
I would have thought ECM tengus or falcons would have been the solution to blap dreads. If the loki can't lock anything to web it down for the dread then unless you as a subcap pilot has fart for brains the dread won't be able to hit you.
Diego Sarmoti
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#15 - 2013-01-18 21:29:52 UTC
Well first, what I think people are most pi**y about is that the bhaalgorn is now near worthless in wh fights due to the moros’ ability to 2 shot them. Prior to the T2 siege dmg buff, the rev was everywhere, and wh fit rev was hitting around 8k.... now everybody is flying morii that push out 14-15k dps. This totally has changed the fleet comp of every competent wh corp. WH home defense aside, prior to the 15k dps moros everybody brought archons and the battle was generally going to be decided by who lost cap first. The average wh brawl was one cap, a bhaal or three and support. Now if you jump a fleet with a few moros 20k apart, you are going to have a hard time not losing support before logi can lock them. You just need moros, lokis for webs+tps and logi to hold the loki’s up, why bother with proteii? Basically, dps T3’s are just for show when you have 2+moros in fleet. Also, with the proper bling and drugs, I think a moros can blat T3’s if they aren’t in close.

To me it is more of a dread balancing issue than anything else. Why would one dread do 50% more dps than the next best dread and still be able to track better? Why is one dread completely worthless and the nag just marginally better?

The simple solution is to train a moros and change up fleet comps, yes?
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-01-18 21:36:08 UTC
Dread blaping is a serious issue for groups who are going proactive. The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates.

Dread shoud be feared weapon against capitals or battleships.

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-01-18 22:00:30 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates..


I agree with this.
dreads will hit T3s very reliably with web/tp support which makes it almost impossible to take a fight into someone's home system without whelping most of your fleet.

There is no Bob.

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Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#18 - 2013-01-18 22:18:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Why is kill/jam/damp webbing ships such a hard thing to do? Why is this a problem?

Why are you trying to find a problem for your solution?

Serendipity Lost wrote:
You seem to have trouble seeing eve and wh space through the eyes of the little guy from way up in the aharm throne room. Many systems have 5 or fewer dreads and quite a few less folks than aharm does living in their wh. Changing the blapability factor and allowing wh invasions in 'quick and easy mode' will pretty much put an end to all the smaller guys scraping out a living in wh space.


Being one of the little guys, I'll agree with this 100%. I quite often see ideas posted here that would be great for the guy with 50 friends in armour T3s with logi, Bhaalgorn and carrier support. Problem is that those ideas are ******* horrible for the guy with only 6-8 friends.
Winthorp
#19 - 2013-01-18 22:32:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
I'm not sure why someone willing to field so many billions in ISK on the field and having the dedicated pilots to do so shouldn't be able to hold a very strong defensive advantage in their own home system. People kind of care about their home.


Well that's not really the case though is it, when someone comes into your home looking for a fight and can not field the caps you can and you bring the fight with triple the caps you may as well just blue ball them there is no point to that.

You cannot sit there and mistake a fight for an invasion where your home is actually at risk.

I don't think dread blapping is the issue people make it out to be, there is always an option in your fleet comp to change out for ECM boats, i think people lean to this argument because they just want remove the dread from the engagement so hole mass doesn't become the issue it is now when people are forced to bring dreads when they other side does.

EDIT: Dont go nerfing the dread just so you don't have to bring your own dread or change your fleet comp.
Winthorp
#20 - 2013-01-18 22:38:09 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
Dread blaping is a serious issue for groups who are going proactive. The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates.

Dread shoud be feared weapon against capitals or battleships.


And thus will make them useless in all WH engagements. I often bring my BS fleet to fight with in WH space. Roll
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