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Skill Training
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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#41 - 2013-01-18 18:34:42 UTC
Aston Martin DB5 wrote:


System that requires grind? No new system is being implemented other than adding a bonus to things players enjoy in the game currently: blowing up ships.



Someone wants a lolly for blowing up a ship Roll

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Vagilicious
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-01-18 18:35:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Vagilicious
Whilst I agree in principle that this wouldn't be a good thing for Eve, a certain other CCP game that ties into Eve does exactly this. (And I hope I'm not breaching NDA by saying that, this information is available freely in the forum subsection for this game).

If a system like this was to be considered, then it should be capped so that when a player reaches, say, 5m SP the extra SP acquisition stops. This would stop the mechanic being abused while at the same time giving new players a bit of a leg up, and wouldn't benefit older players at all.

This would also benefit CCP - their online player count would rise, and it might sway new players into staying if they feel that they can achieve a few extra ponts by actually playing.
Lovely Dumplings
My Little Pony Appreciation Corporation
#43 - 2013-01-18 18:41:27 UTC
Whenever you have the next big great idea for EVE, think like this "What would happen if this mechanic were exploited to the point of absurdity?" That's what an EVE player will do.

Here's some back of napkin figures. Assuming your average missioner can kill one rat every 5 seconds, that equals to around 12 rats a minute. That's 720 rats an hour. 1380 rats a day. 41,400 rats a month. If we value each rat at 5SP, that'd run out to a total of 207,000 SP a month.

So, lets nerf it. 0.5SP per kill. 20,700SP a month. I'm likely wrong, but a perfect skillplan with perfect implants is what, 25-30mil SP a year?

Granted, those are "pulled out of my ass" numbers, but you really have to think that way with MMO mechanics. Someone will take it right to the wall, so you start figuring from there, and work back to see if it's even feasible.

www.minerbumping.com
Aston Martin DB5
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#44 - 2013-01-18 18:42:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Aston Martin DB5
Vagilicious wrote:
Whilst I agree in principle that this wouldn't be a good thing for Eve, a certain other CCP game that ties into Eve does exactly this. (And I hope I'm not breaching NDA by saying that, this information is available freely in the forum subsection for this game).

If a system like this was to be considered, then it should be capped so that when a player reaches, say, 5m SP the extra SP acquisition stops. This would stop the mechanic being abused while at the same time giving new players a bit of a leg up, and wouldn't benefit older players at all.


I Still feel that all players should benefit because adding 25 - 500 points monthly shouldn't amount too much for a character with 40+ million sp's.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#45 - 2013-01-18 18:42:58 UTC
Vagilicious wrote:
Whilst I agree in principle that this wouldn't be a good thing for Eve, a certain other CCP game that ties into Eve does exactly this. (And I hope I'm not breaching NDA by saying that, this information is available freely in the forum subsection for this game).

If a system like this was to be considered, then it should be capped so that when a player reaches, say, 5m SP the extra SP acquisition stops. This would stop the mechanic being abused while at the same time giving new players a bit of a leg up, and wouldn't benefit older players at all.

This would also benefit CCP - their online player count would rise, and it might sway new players into staying if they feel that they can achieve a few extra ponts by actually playing.



This is a great argument, but I still cannot agree. I stayed with EVE only once I realized how difficult it was.

This breaks that core concept of EVE's difficulty utterly for a beginner. I may have stayed away or given up because other starting noobs were doing a lot more Combat than I, as I prefer other things. It is too unbalanced.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#46 - 2013-01-18 19:14:04 UTC
I believe you are alone in here OP.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Cowboy Nuggets
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2013-01-18 19:53:12 UTC
Ghazu wrote:
hey guys guys i am like pretty rich now i don't even have to rat anymore but i still need to rat for sec status how about passive sec status regen?


Hells yeah get rid of sec status grind!
Kamden Line
Sovereign Citizen and other Tax Evasion Schemes
#48 - 2013-01-18 20:10:50 UTC
I remeber back in the day when there WAS no skill queue. You have no idea how annoying it was to get up at 1 in the morning in to change skills over.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#49 - 2013-01-18 20:34:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Aston Martin DB5 wrote:
Abused because maybe it was poorly implemented? Why are we throwing around "large quantities of game time" maybe blowing up 1 ship in a month just gained you 25 points to apply or something> ?

System that requires grind? No new system is being implemented other than adding a bonus to things players enjoy in the game currently: blowing up ships.
Yes abused. PvE is being abused, mining is being abused. Are they poorly implemented? No, it's just the nature of getting something, when automation is possible. If it is possible, then people will automate it.

If you add a system that means you gain SP from an action, it becomes a grind mechanic. As it stand right now, the skill system is fair and open to all. With the removal of learning skills and the inclusion of attribute remaps, we now train far faster then ever. (yes I'm aware of the slight drop, but this only affected those with 5/5 learning)

Your idea will punish those without extra free time and reward those with. Any mechanic like this doesn't solve any problem, but creates many.

Eve is a non-grinding, no-level, class-less, passive-ability, real-time progression game, so you shouldn't be able to train things faster no matter what repetition you do. If faster speeds are your thing, buy implants.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Warp Planet6
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2013-01-18 20:39:19 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
You as a person is the one who 'levels up' as it where, not your character.


This.
Character development is fine.
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#51 - 2013-01-18 20:41:08 UTC
No!

I played games with SP or XP for grind before and all you do there is grinding SP for MONTHS until you are level 80 or whatever. And if you are finally there, after MONTHS of killing boars and picking 10 flowers you realize that this was the game and all you can do now is dueling other tards that fell for the same stupid game.

NO!

I actually enjoyed to be able to PLAY THE GAME from minute one. And to actually have a game whose purpose isn't grinding ****.

Also this is EVE, experience in the game mechanics are actually 100x more important that SP. You will soon realize that if you stop watching your skill progressbar and start playing the game.

tl;dr
EVE is that endgame that wasn't in that other game but you tried to reach anyway while killing boars.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#52 - 2013-01-18 20:44:21 UTC
Doesn't really "fit" Eve, but isn't a terrible idea.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Hendrik Tiberius
Red Phoenix Rising
#53 - 2013-01-18 20:52:22 UTC
Aston Martin DB5 wrote:
Vagilicious wrote:
Whilst I agree in principle that this wouldn't be a good thing for Eve, a certain other CCP game that ties into Eve does exactly this. (And I hope I'm not breaching NDA by saying that, this information is available freely in the forum subsection for this game).

If a system like this was to be considered, then it should be capped so that when a player reaches, say, 5m SP the extra SP acquisition stops. This would stop the mechanic being abused while at the same time giving new players a bit of a leg up, and wouldn't benefit older players at all.


I Still feel that all players should benefit because adding 25 - 500 points monthly shouldn't amount too much for a character with 40+ million sp's.


So you want an amount of sp added (through some kind of activity) that is small enough to make no real difference?
Then we could as well not have that system since it makes little or no difference.

I believe enough arguments have been presented against sp gain that would make a difference.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#54 - 2013-01-18 21:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2330084 <--- (the last thread on this subject)

tl;dr...

Active skills...

- encourage grinding (you are currently not forced to grind up anything in EVE except for standings... even ISK can be gained quite easily if you know what to do)
- active training rewards certain player activities and completely ignores others (rewards ratters, miners, industrials, probes, etc... doesn't reward corp leaders, spies, logistics, managers, scouts, etc).
- can be horribly, horribly abused (the server will not be able to differentiate two alts shooting at each other in the middle of space, afk, with infinite tanks and lasers... versus two evenly matched ships with infinite tanks and lasers that are mortal enemies of each other).
- if you make the amount of SP gained too small... it won't be worthwhile to even code in.
- if you make the amount of SP gained high enough... it will become a tangible enough advantage that it becomes "mandatory" to grind up skills... otherwise you'll be "left behind."
-- this means people will be more preoccupied with getting "max skills" than playing the damn game.
--- you will have to grind for years to get max skills in everything (it takes 20+ years to get max skills in everything with the current system).... and people will TRY.

How did you Veterans start?
Noriko Mai
#55 - 2013-01-18 22:49:35 UTC
LOL. Go away OP

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#56 - 2013-01-19 01:01:32 UTC
SP isn't used like XP is in other games, and therefore it deserves no such treatment.

NO.

You are confusing SP with LP and ISK. Those are fine 'activity' rewards. Its knowledge and assets that make you competative on the field, not your SP. I very much enjoy the thought I can do more stuff over time, and do it more often if I PVE a little harder. The current system allows the 'student to surpass the master' by sheer specialization. I consider this to be a role-defining characteristic of the SP system, it contributes to fleet variation and identity.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#57 - 2013-01-19 01:11:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Horrible idea in every way imaginable.

It does not address any kind of problem. It promotes not actually playing the game and instead performing menial tasks to grind progress. It is not equitably available, and it particularly benefits botters. In short, it rewards harmful player behaviour for absolutely no good reason whatsoever and with no gain to gameplay.

It was tried; it sucked in exactly these ways; it was abandoned for a good reason. One of the main beauties of the EVE skill system is that it does not cater to this kind of unimaginative non-gameplay, but rather lets people actually play the game instead of forcing them to concern themselves with irrelevant and pointless grind mechanics.

In short, and without being too unkind about the whole thing… sod off.
Tesal
#58 - 2013-01-19 02:56:23 UTC
Aston Martin DB5 wrote:
Market toon shouldn't be rewarded. Promoting people flying their spaceships and blowing stuff up should because they're engaging with other players in a "MMO."

Not saying making isk through the market is bad.

I pay my sub just like everyone else. Why should I be deprived of skill points?
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-01-21 10:33:34 UTC
Nope.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#60 - 2013-01-21 10:53:32 UTC
Aston Martin DB5 wrote:
Not sure if this topic has been discussed before but I was wondering how the community felt on improving the current skill training process.

Currently adding things to queue is quite bland if you ask me. Why not implement a system which rewards players for doing activities while online such as pvp combat, pve combat, etc.

How the player could be rewarded is a SP bar which players earn doing certain activities and at the end of each week/month players can spend these points on skills they like. Now obviously it wouldn't amount to 1million being applied weekly or monthly but maybe a max of 500 points.

Not only would this benefit current players but it would definitely help new players as well feel as if their character is progressing in a meaningful way.

No flaming and please provide constructive feedback as to why or why not this would help/hurt current game mechanics.




Skillbots.

Or just loading up a single laser, orbiting an asteroid and going to work...


The great thing about EVE's skill system is that you DONT have to skillgrind. Why would you want to add skill grinding? Because make no mistake, that's what you're proposing here.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016