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CSM minutes on FW
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#41 - 2013-01-18 05:30:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:
cynthia and dcm running alts in backwater systems?

A) aset and isabra are not backwater

B)the reason they have to plex with alts is from the lack of mains on amarr side

i joined them along with others and the aset pocket swong to our side. then alot of mains joined in amd look what happened?

see what stops alts are mains....a system can only hold 2-3 plexers for an hour then they have to move on


so 15-20 mains can plex an area very quickly and stop all farmers from doing anything in a 4-6 system area


you wanna stop alts? get your main to plexing

i would agree with you if the timers would reset.

right now we have this situation:
- if you scare an alt off and undo his damage (decontest) he contests something else (you trade your time against his time 1:1)
- if you continue to hunt the same alt around you don't undo any damage while other are contesting (same thing: 1:1)

unless you occupy almost every plex with "mains" you will always lose against alts in the sov game

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Tsobai Hashimoto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-01-18 07:36:45 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:
cynthia and dcm running alts in backwater systems?

A) aset and isabra are not backwater

B)the reason they have to plex with alts is from the lack of mains on amarr side

i joined them along with others and the aset pocket swong to our side. then alot of mains joined in amd look what happened?

see what stops alts are mains....a system can only hold 2-3 plexers for an hour then they have to move on


so 15-20 mains can plex an area very quickly and stop all farmers from doing anything in a 4-6 system area


you wanna stop alts? get your main to plexing

i would agree with you if the timers would reset.

right now we have this situation:
- if you scare an alt off and undo his damage (decontest) he contests something else (you trade your time against his time 1:1)
- if you continue to hunt the same alt around you don't undo any damage while other are contesting (same thing: 1:1)

unless you occupy almost every plex with "mains" you will always lose against alts in the sov game




thats why it takes about 15pilots and you lock down a good five systems


you put 5 guys into 3 systems your in every plex and run them down

now jump into 3 diffrent systems and run them down

now jump back. there might be 2-3 new plexs in the first set of systems


our fleet just spent 45-60mins. kncoked down 6 systems by 1.5 - 2.5% each. each made around 50-75mill isk amd completely stopped stabbed farmers from any income in that area


and most likely got a few kills

this is what dcm cynthia. flyingpocket and others do...they have a core 10-20 pilots with a few alts and lock down an 8-10 system range
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2013-01-18 08:38:44 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
i would agree with you if the timers would reset...

right now we have this situation:
- if you scare an alt off and undo his damage (decontest) he contests something else (you trade your time against his time 1:1)
- if you continue to hunt the same alt around you don't undo any damage while other are contesting (same thing: 1:1)

unless you occupy almost every plex with "mains" you will always lose against alts in the sov game

The result of a reset mechanic would just be that a defender chasing farmers would suddenly get n:1 in his favour making offensive operations something that can only be done with excessive force = lots more time wasted with no guarantee of more pew.

Timer auto-run on the other hand evens the field without (as many) drawbacks while pressuring the farming contingent to do to the 'right thing' (ie. Die like men!).

Don't know if its possible (CCP claims anything is, but :CCP: Smile)
- A button with offensive time on it will count backwards to zero (auto-run) if a defender gets within range and no attacker is present.
- Timers will run at double speed when a defender is present.
- Defensive LP is halved (or more). Value of defence should rest in the system/WZC and not the immediate payout.

Addition to system upgrade paths:
- Bounties (and thus sec. gain) on all rats is increased by 20% per level.
Reason being that sec. gain is a horror to accomplish in low/high (unless one games the system) and to give the FW crowd something else to do when orbiting buttons and blue-balling the enemy gets boring. Adds to value of system in a very real way and could potentially give rise to more HQ systems .. people more spread out = more pew (in theory).
Added benefit is that it may attract the weekend pirates warriors whose sec hasn't tanked enough to justify sucking up to some null megalomaniac for ratting permission.
Rengerel en Distel
#44 - 2013-01-18 13:48:21 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
i would agree with you if the timers would reset...

right now we have this situation:
- if you scare an alt off and undo his damage (decontest) he contests something else (you trade your time against his time 1:1)
- if you continue to hunt the same alt around you don't undo any damage while other are contesting (same thing: 1:1)

unless you occupy almost every plex with "mains" you will always lose against alts in the sov game

The result of a reset mechanic would just be that a defender chasing farmers would suddenly get n:1 in his favour making offensive operations something that can only be done with excessive force = lots more time wasted with no guarantee of more pew.

Timer auto-run on the other hand evens the field without (as many) drawbacks while pressuring the farming contingent to do to the 'right thing' (ie. Die like men!).

Don't know if its possible (CCP claims anything is, but :CCP: Smile)
- A button with offensive time on it will count backwards to zero (auto-run) if a defender gets within range and no attacker is present.
- Timers will run at double speed when a defender is present.
- Defensive LP is halved (or more). Value of defence should rest in the system/WZC and not the immediate payout.

Addition to system upgrade paths:
- Bounties (and thus sec. gain) on all rats is increased by 20% per level.
Reason being that sec. gain is a horror to accomplish in low/high (unless one games the system) and to give the FW crowd something else to do when orbiting buttons and blue-balling the enemy gets boring. Adds to value of system in a very real way and could potentially give rise to more HQ systems .. people more spread out = more pew (in theory).
Added benefit is that it may attract the weekend pirates warriors whose sec hasn't tanked enough to justify sucking up to some null megalomaniac for ratting permission.


I still think it would be good if they could have a system where if the size of the killmail in the plex was appropriate for the size of the plex, the winner automatically won the plex. So if you're in a novice, and it's a T1 v T1 frig battle and you win, you capture the plex for whichever side you were on.
I think the tiers should be 0,5,10,15,20% too though, so that the losing side isn't so financially disadvantaged that people won't want to join them. If the winners are only making 15% more lp while having considerably fewer systems to plex in, I think the system has a much better chance of balancing out. Removing sister plexing would help that goal as well.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#45 - 2013-01-18 14:10:33 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
...I still think it would be good if they could have a system where if the size of the killmail in the plex was appropriate for the size of the plex, the winner automatically won the plex. So if you're in a novice, and it's a T1 v T1 frig battle and you win, you capture the plex for whichever side you were on...

So by sacrificing 100k ISK on an empty frigate hull, sticking an alt in it and blowing it up with my main inside a plex, I could make 10k LP in a few seconds ... yes please! Big smile

I am all for incentives to make plex fights better and more numerous and have advocated for doubling/tripling LP-for-Kills if earned inside and even adding the LP to the VP gained ofr a plex .. but we first have to make people want to fight inside which is a problem now that warp-in is always camped instead of just sometimes.
The only good thing the button move/capture range change did was make blasters viable again but not sure that is enough to outweigh the general reluctance to enter any occupied plex.
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#46 - 2013-01-18 14:24:12 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Until EWAR frigs can fly cloaked, get no 5s delay on decloaking and get a +5 to warp disruptor strength, and are combat-capable, we will have stabbed cloaky bantams and whatnot crapping up plexes.

Or, more un-gated complexes. Or all complexes un-gated, just restrict who can initiate warp-to OUTSIDE the plex, instead of making people warp to a deadspace gate.

Enable cloaky flying gankers, and the alts will shunt off elsewhere.


The alts will fly combat ships then, and wipe the floor with your alliance not only in terms of VP, but kills too. Why do you have a problem with farmers, catching the 5th/6th/etc. farming alt is the only way you can get an actual kill without begging for help. Twisted
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#47 - 2013-01-18 14:28:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Cynthia Nezmor
Bienator II wrote:


- if you scare an alt off and undo his damage (decontest) he contests something else (you trade your time against his time 1:1)


The difference between good FW player and bad FW player is this ratio. When I am fighting sasawong, it will be close to this, and we can fight each other for all eternity. When I fight random farmer, and hold his pod until he selfdestructs, he might realizes that mining veldspar is more profitable and he might just quit FW. Even if he doesnt, he spends some time getting his new ship, while I take another plex. And even if I dont kill them, they spend time warping from system to system trying to find a place to farm, while I closed another novice. Bear
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#48 - 2013-01-18 14:34:19 UTC
If ccp did 2 things plexing would be an awesome pvp game:

1) If you warp off when an enemy or neutal is on your grid or on grid with your accell gate then the timer goes 3 minutes in your enemies favor. Not just to zero. So If you are plexing a minor for 1 minute and get chased off your enemy now only has 8 minutes to close the plex. If you leave a plex with no enemies around then the timer stays where it is at. (we don't want to punish people for leaving a plex to fight in another nearby plex) Perhaps we could even say if your ship blows up in the plex and you warp out in your pod you still don't lose the 3 minutes. Again encouraging people to stay and fight.

2) Notify us when plexes are entered and left. Just when where and plextype so we can go fight them. They are supposedly our military complexes ffs. How can the militias not know when they are attacked?


Its really that simple. If a militia is immediately notified and still can't cover the distance in 3 minutes to chase out rabbits (and thereby make farming impossible) then they likely need to spread out their blob.

No more winning faction war by hiding and doing pve. No more farmers just lots and lots of pvp. Somehow these sorts of simple solutions got left behind in discussions about lp.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#49 - 2013-01-18 14:42:23 UTC
Most rules or conditions that people think up to cut down on farmers can be exploited in other ways. To point number one above people would create alts in the opposing faction. They would use that alt to open all the plexes in a system and run the timers for 10 seconds before leaving. They would follow up with their main who now gets a three minute head start towards each and every defensive plex.
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-01-18 14:46:31 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:
If ccp did 2 things plexing would be an awesome pvp game:

1) If you warp off when an enemy or neutal is on your grid or on grid with your accell gate then the timer goes 3 minutes in your enemies favor. Not just to zero. So If you are plexing a minor for 1 minute and get chased off your enemy now only has 8 minutes to close the plex. If you leave a plex with no enemies around then the timer stays where it is at. (we don't want to punish people for leaving a plex to fight in another nearby plex) Perhaps we could even say if your ship blows up in the plex and you warp out in your pod you still don't lose the 3 minutes. Again encouraging people to stay and fight.


This is a bad idea. You just saved me 3 minutes on every plex I run. I just take my Caldari alt into a plex,"scare" him off, and shave 3 minutes off my plex time. This gives an unfair advantage to those of us with multiple accounts and alts. If you warp out of a plex, the counter auto-counts back to the neutral timer.

ground ctrl wrote:

2) Notify us when plexes are entered and left. Just when where and plextype so we can go fight them. They are supposedly our military complexes ffs. How can the militias not know when they are attacked?


Its really that simple. If a militia is immediately notified and still can't cover the distance in 3 minutes to chase out rabbits (and thereby make farming impossible) then they likely need to spread out their blob.

No more winning faction war by hiding and doing pve. No more farmers just lots and lots of pvp. Somehow these sorts of simple solutions got left behind in discussions about lp.


This is a good idea in theory, but there will be so much noise that it will be useless. I want to plex in system X, so I do it. At the same time, I take an alt and run through all 101 systems and open a plex in each,warp in to generate the message, then leave. The volume of these messages will cause them to be useless.

.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#51 - 2013-01-18 14:57:19 UTC
Andre and Zarnak good point about the first idea. Cynthia pointed out that if the 3 minutes was repeating then she could just keep chasing the alt out and close a major plex very fast. If we did this the timer loss could not be repeating. Also the immediate loss of time might need to be reduced. If that idea is salvagable at all.

The timer rollback may be the best we can do. I would just want it so the timer doesn't start rolling back if I go to fight an enemy in a nearby plex. In other words it should only roll back if there is an enemy on grid or on grid with the accel gate when I warp.

Andre: regarding the notifications. Cynthia mentioned that as well. I do not think that would be a problem, but if it were ccp could allow us to filter the notifications. So we could get only notifications within x jumps, or notifications in our region.
Tsobai Hashimoto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-01-18 22:06:28 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:
If ccp did 2 things plexing would be an awesome pvp game:


2) Notify us when plexes are entered and left. Just when where and plextype so we can go fight them. They are supposedly our military complexes ffs. How can the militias not know when they are attacked?


No more winning faction war by hiding and doing pve. No more farmers just lots and lots of pvp. Somehow these sorts of simple solutions got left behind in discussions about lp.


They have this in FW, they also have this in Null Sec

It is called SCOUTS!

I have 3 FW intel channels, local, corp/alliance chat and militia chat...that is a lot of eyes around telling me what is going on, and gives me a lot of audience to report intel to, just because you dont listen to them, post to them or use them does not mean that we dont.

You want to make a game mechanic that simplifies the game, and takes away from organized teamwork. This is what makes EVE.

Why not have the rat go beyond tellinng you that someone is in his plex, but how many WTs or if they are neuts.....what ships they are flying? P

Why not have the rat ship scan them too and give you a report on the slot layout, the DPS and damage type they are dealing to the rat and the estimated time its tank will hold Roll

Yes that could be a "realistic" addition to a war game, but thats called "easy sauce". You want to know what the WTs are flying and where? keep an eye on them, do your work, setup intel chans....if you dont like it, find an easier more arcade pvp game, I hear guildwars 2 is fun and has jiggly boobs on all its cute toons
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#53 - 2013-01-18 22:20:52 UTC
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:


They have this in FW, they also have this in Null Sec

It is called SCOUTS!

I have 3 FW intel channels, local, corp/alliance chat and militia chat...that is a lot of eyes around telling me what is going on, and gives me a lot of audience to report intel to, just because you dont listen to them, post to them or use them does not mean that we dont.

You want to make a game mechanic that simplifies the game, and takes away from organized teamwork. This is what makes EVE.


Exactly. As I said: they don't want to play EvE, they want to play an arena/battleground type game with a some kind of quick "batlle matching" system fo an easy, effortless, consequenceless and immediatly gratificating PvP sport
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#54 - 2013-01-19 11:39:19 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

Pvp isn't an isk sink..

Insurance actually pumps isk into the system... pvp is a mineral sink...


Hmmm.....true enough unless you get a fair few expensive modules blown up with your ship....as any modules blown up are lost (isk wise)

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#55 - 2013-01-19 11:41:55 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:

No hard feelings dude - was just having a dig with the stabby cloaky thing because I was a bit surprised at your post.

You have always done good posts and it did seem out of character which is why I responded back.


I normally only post stupid comments most of the time in misguided attempts to remind people that this is only a game but when the minutes were so barren of any real discussion about major issues - I decided to add my 5 cents worth here.
Every now and then - we are all within our rights as paying subscribers to say what we do or don't like in eve.

+ I understand where you are coming from as there are too many similar thread here atm.
Just seemed the one about CSM minutes was an appropriate one to comment in with what I wanted to say.
Much better than me starting ANOTHER thread to **** up these forums further.

You an aussie ? If you are - Do you go on the Anzac day roams?
aka - The 'if it's not Aussie or Kiwi it dies' fleet.

Last years was fun (but a bit short - damn abaddons)

o/


Yeah I was having an off day then. :(

I live in South Aus and work in the mines.....So normally I'm either at work during the Anzac day roams or at home enjoying time with my family (they get grumpy if I spend it all on eve vOv Shocked ) Unfortunately however I'm English!

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Checksum Error
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-01-19 14:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Checksum Error
We already have come up with this ideas which would solve this issues mostly in favor of the PVE AND of the PVP players
independent of you are one newbee or a bitter vet.
1. LP Store Discount is based on your rank.
• 2. Your Rank is based on the amount of Values you kill for Your Militia and your standing towards your Militia(System similar to the new Bounty System) Tier system would remain at is it.Standing system also unchanged.So you can get medals not only for PVP
• 3. Your Rank is visible through Medals you can achive.
• 4. You can have a Ladder to see who ist the biggest FW Killer in New Eden
• 5. Your Rank will fade away slowly if you are no more Active in FW
• 6. Your Rank will be Resetted if you Change sides

This just my 2 cents
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#57 - 2013-01-19 15:45:20 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
I think many people, including 0.0 alliances, need to ask them this question: "Why should I have the honor of owning a system I do not dominate?" This includes these backwater systems that YOU DON'T LIVE IN.

Once you realize that you aren't entitled to systems you don't actively patrol patrol most of the time, then you'll feel alot better about yourself when you lose them.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#58 - 2013-01-20 02:19:31 UTC
FW from a Star Trek perspective..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0yXqU-w9U0
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#59 - 2013-01-22 20:43:06 UTC
Where is Hans Jagerblitzen in this discussion?

Not today spaghetti.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#60 - 2013-01-23 04:23:11 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Where is Hans Jagerblitzen in this discussion?


It doesn't matter.

He is stuck in an irrelevant position since CCP put toons in FW and can see it all for themselves without a middleman relaying the exact same info to them. Not his fault - just how it worked out.

CCP also have access to data/statistics that Hans does not have access to.
One could safely assume any input he gave would be likely be considered less informed than the opinions CCP have formed for themselves after reviewing/interpreting their data.


TBH - He has been smart in avoiding this discussion.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney