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Dev blog: CSM meeting minutes are out

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Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#121 - 2013-01-17 23:22:59 UTC
Xessej wrote:
POS and corp management affect a lot more people than the ones who directly manage POS or corps.

My corp lives in wspace and we like it. It fits our playstyle very well. The problem is attrition and recruiting. real life happens and some players left or have less time. But recruiting replacements runs into the hassles of POS and corp management. To let a new player have enough access to do much of anything gives him way too much access. So instead of our corp recruiting some new like minded players who we gradually give more access to our corp will soon pack up and move back to hisec.

CCP needs to fix POS and corp management to make all of wspace better and it will make a lot of null bears happy too.

It would benefit the game as a whole.

High, low, null, WH.
It's not just a WH issue. Even high sec players could use better PoS's and corp management.
Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
#122 - 2013-01-18 07:41:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Renoir
For me, the best part was:
Soundwave @ CSM7 Meeting Minutes wrote:

Soundwave clarified that he doesn’t mind people being bothered by it, because no EVE player has the right to be shut off from the rest of the world. He sees bounty hunting as something that’s impacting players playing EVE as a single player game in a way nothing they tried before, and was glad they were interacting with the community whether negatively or positively. He suspected most people complaining were annoyed because they were not used to being able to be “poked” by other players.


Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

Alek praised this statement: AMEN SOUNDWAVE!


THAT shows me two things:
First is, that it is strange and hypocritical from Soundwave that he “doesn`t mind people being bothered” with this new bounty system. And on the other hand the whole CCP Team (GM; Dev; CCP and Volunteer etc.) is excluded from the new bounty system at once! Didn’t he said that no one “has the right to be shut off from the rest of the world”?

The second thing is, that Alekseyev Karrde does not know this and praises Soundwave as new messiah!

And another thing:
CCP Solomon wrote:

The goal would be to ensure they understand that having a bounty doesn’t make them attackable in highsec, which Solomon confirmed was a point of confusion on the forums even for experienced players.


Solomon.. you are wrong or just want to play down the problem. We all know that a bounty does not make a pilot a legal target. It is the bounty itself that is the problem!
As good guy you do not wish to have a bounty. Especially if you have good standings to CONCORD – WHO has control of the bounty system (pool).
If you have never done some harm to another player NO ONE should be able to spend a bounty for nothing on his head!
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#123 - 2013-01-18 07:52:18 UTC
Alexander Renoir wrote:
For me, the best part was:
Soundwave @ CSM7 Meeting Minutes wrote:

Soundwave clarified that he doesn’t mind people being bothered by it, because no EVE player has the right to be shut off from the rest of the world. He sees bounty hunting as something that’s impacting players playing EVE as a single player game in a way nothing they tried before, and was glad they were interacting with the community whether negatively or positively. He suspected most people complaining were annoyed because they were not used to being able to be “poked” by other players.


Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

Alek praised this statement: AMEN SOUNDWAVE!


THAT shows me two things:
First is, that it is strange and hypocritical from Soundwave that he “doesn`t mind people being bothered” with this new bounty system. And on the other hand the whole CCP Team (GM; Dev; CCP and Volunteer etc.) is excluded from the new bounty system at once! Didn’t he said that no one “has the right to be shut off from the rest of the world”?

The second thing is, that Alekseyev Karrde does not know this and praises Soundwave as new messiah!


You are either a very persistent troll, or seriously too frustrated over a non-issue. You also keep posting and yet ignoring people who are responding to you with non-troll responses.

Here, send me 500mil isk, and I will make sure it gets placed on Soundwave's head. I figured out how, but it's a secret.

Member of the Pink Pony Killboard Padding Alliance
Gelatine
EverBroke Geeks
#124 - 2013-01-18 08:00:11 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Alexander Renoir wrote:


Listen CCP. Two Accounts canceled! Two from me. I know many others that also canceled during your daft new bounty system!
Perhaps it is a rage quit.. But I want to see it as a last chance to tell CCP how I think about their bad work! What?

Grow up.

Retribution was releaesed over a month ago. If there was problem with people quitting over the bounty system they'd know by now.

Here's a hint, people aren't.
Except you and a couple others. So you're SoL guy.


The impression I got from the minutes was CCP haven't got a damn clue if anyone is quitting or not. For me at least, above all else this is something CCP should be finding out. I know a lot of people who have quit since retribution (but the bounty system was only a problem for one of them - I'll give you that.) I could quit right now, but CCP wouldn't pay any attention to that until my subscriptions ran out.

I've made three new accounts in the last month, but they're not going to make up for some of the people who have gone from my community; corp chat is dead in every player corp I'm in, and it's been consistently like that since two days after Retribution. Market trading has never been easier - for me a clear sign that less people are playing. Most high sec mining fleets are one player multi boxing, and every small gang roam I've been on has been comprised of a few players multi boxing and myself fighting people who were clearly multi boxing too (I suck at PvP and should have been podded many times, yet I haven't been recently.)

-

While EVE has many problems that need resolving, one problem has persisted and actually gets worse the longer I play: I am paranoid, I don't trust anyone and nobody trusts me. Please CCP, when you start tracking humans (I'm overjoyed to hear you'll be doing this,) allow CEOs to request information about the players within their corp to ease the rampant paranoia within EVE's community - I want to be able to prove I have no ties with any reds and I want CEOs to have a means to ask players to prove how many accounts they have and their corp histories - a human bound api or something.

If that's too much to ask, then limit the number of player corps a human can be in to one, regardless of the number of accounts owned until a better solution can be found. I want to recruit good people for my corp, but I can't trust anyone with things as they are. We have spies in other alliances, they have spies amongst my alliance - this just prevents good fights from happening and wrecks the illusion that we are immortal and fearless, because thirty seconds to hot drop either we or they find out... more often than not, one or the other runs away like pansies.
Lost True
Perkone
Caldari State
#125 - 2013-01-18 10:28:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Lost True
What about the wis, you stuped bitches...
Damn, i'm so tired of all these boring expansions.

in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much?
Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
#126 - 2013-01-18 10:37:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Renoir
Gelatine wrote:

The impression I got from the minutes was CCP haven't got a damn clue if anyone is quitting or not.
[...]
I've made three new accounts in the last month, but they're not going to make up for some of the people who have gone from my community; corp chat is dead in every player corp I'm in, and it's been consistently like that since two days after Retribution. Market trading has never been easier - for me a clear sign that less people are playing.


Hello Gelatine,

If you want to let CCP know how you are thinking about Retribution, try their survey via http://retribution.questionpro.com/
Please let them know what you like or dislike or what they should do better.
Thanks. Big smile

Additional: YOU are right! There was barely enough time between these two events for patch day for Retribution (04.12.2012) and the days for CSM 7 meeting (12.12.-14.12.2012) to give a valid statistik or funded and reliable statement, if you take the meeting minutes as resource.

NOTE: at least 40 petitions concerning the bounty mechanic within the first 8 days of Retribution. Roll
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2013-01-18 11:07:43 UTC
Alexander Renoir wrote:
For me, the best part was:
Soundwave @ CSM7 Meeting Minutes wrote:

Soundwave clarified that he doesn’t mind people being bothered by it, because no EVE player has the right to be shut off from the rest of the world. He sees bounty hunting as something that’s impacting players playing EVE as a single player game in a way nothing they tried before, and was glad they were interacting with the community whether negatively or positively. He suspected most people complaining were annoyed because they were not used to being able to be “poked” by other players.


Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

Alek praised this statement: AMEN SOUNDWAVE!


THAT shows me two things:
First is, that it is strange and hypocritical from Soundwave that he “doesn`t mind people being bothered” with this new bounty system. And on the other hand the whole CCP Team (GM; Dev; CCP and Volunteer etc.) is excluded from the new bounty system at once! Didn’t he said that no one “has the right to be shut off from the rest of the world”?

The second thing is, that Alekseyev Karrde does not know this and praises Soundwave as new messiah!

And another thing:
CCP Solomon wrote:

The goal would be to ensure they understand that having a bounty doesn’t make them attackable in highsec, which Solomon confirmed was a point of confusion on the forums even for experienced players.


Solomon.. you are wrong or just want to play down the problem. We all know that a bounty does not make a pilot a legal target. It is the bounty itself that is the problem!
As good guy you do not wish to have a bounty. Especially if you have good standings to CONCORD – WHO has control of the bounty system (pool).
If you have never done some harm to another player NO ONE should be able to spend a bounty for nothing on his head!


The bounty system is fine. It has nothing to do with if you are a "good guy" or a "bad guy" it just mean someone wants you dead. Why do you fail to understand that?

How does the bounty system affect your gaming experience?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Wes Magyar
Ex Con Inc.
#128 - 2013-01-18 11:46:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Wes Magyar
...
Finarfin
Cerulean Void
#129 - 2013-01-18 14:26:55 UTC
I am outright disgusted at the POS part. Small part of the community? WTF? CCP, you may wanna check how many POS exist and how many parts of EvE they touch daily. For 6 years I hear hollow promises of improvements now. I am really disappointed.
ctx2007
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2013-01-18 14:57:25 UTC
Shocked My eyes, my poor eyes.

That was a long read, but interesting.

You only realise you life has been a waste of time, when you wake up dead.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#131 - 2013-01-18 15:34:29 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
...How does the bounty system affect your gaming experience?

Well, I lost two ships after coming back thanks to it .. that single tickbox's added in OV settings had everyone around me only appear visually in space, do you realise how bloody hard it is to do anything without a functional OV? Big smile

In short: With everyone and their dog having a bounty, tick the box by default!
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2013-01-18 19:41:32 UTC
Lost True wrote:
What about the wis, you stuped bitches...


Hasn't killed himself lately and is still mining away with a fleet of Macks. Also, don't diss The Wis, bad things happen to those who do.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
Galatea Galilei
Nihilistic Mystics
#133 - 2013-01-18 23:01:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Galatea Galilei
Arguing about how many people are affected by POS issues and whether they're a small portion of the community or not misses the point entirely. Their willingness to devote time to niches of the game is the problem here.

The wonderful thing about EVE is there are so many diverse things you can do. Not everyone does everything in EVE, and many of us do things that only a small portion of the community really does. The game has a huge variety of small niches. That's what makes EVE great.

If CCP is going to from now on only concentrate on adding or improving things that affect the majority, they will strip away from the game its greatest feature. It will certainly make the game much more homogenous, and probably reduce their work-load a lot, and allow them to devote more attention to features that affect more people. But the game will rapidly lose its depth, if this is to be the future direction CCP takes. It's disappointing to hear that kind of talk coming from CCP...
Dusty Meg
Echelon Research
Goonswarm Federation
#134 - 2013-01-18 23:48:10 UTC
Externally control of your PI planets should really be thought about, would be soo much easier to use it.

Also cant wait for CREST to come out with market order editing going to be playing with that alot

Creater of the EVE animated influence map http://www.youtube.com/user/DustMityEVE
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2013-01-19 00:11:57 UTC
I am not sure the argument for needing the skill que required to Make people log in. This argument will also weaken over time.

The purpose for the skill que was to have players "interact" with eve. keeping the game on the top of their mind, with porting eve to other devices ... Eve can be picked up almost anywhere.

Longer skill que beyond 24 hr, no. but access my skill que to change on my iPhone yes.


I would like to export chats channel so I can have them on my I pad in real time

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#136 - 2013-01-19 18:08:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
To save time and space, I will just assume that CCP understands that the POS rework need is more than just management and aesthetics; it is functional for every player who could use pos services without having to dedicate 8 million hours to set-up and take down the pos. Ever been in a player station and then kicked out of corp? Better to have stuff in a personal pos at that point. Corp would have no power over a personal pos, except to attack it. Ever been in a corp pos and had a corp thief? Better to have a personal pos at that point.

Would division of the hangars for player exclusive access solve the issues? If the only option is corp control of the pos, you still have the issues (when you leave corp) of losing the powers to refit, to repair, to gain access, and to leave securely. You risk everything, including your pod, by utilizing a corp pos or station. These are risks that I refuse to accept. The simplest option of allowing a pos to be anchored for the player only with no corp control, is probably the easiest and fastest fix CCP could hope for.

We all know that the pos can be so much more than what it currently is, and that larger project is something we are willing to wait for proper development, despite the many year wait already. If the pos is like a giant ship, then setting it up should be like fitting a capital ship. Development of that kind of system adds a lot of possibilities, but can be expected to take some time for the development and transition.

**The short term fix of allowing the pos to be anchored for the player only without any corp ties or control is something that needed to happen yesterday. I doubt that the quick fix of making the pos actual be able to be a "player owned starbase" instead of being a "corp owned starbase" is NOT likely to consume much time from CCP devs.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#137 - 2013-01-19 20:34:56 UTC
Alexander Renoir wrote:
Gelatine wrote:

The impression I got from the minutes was CCP haven't got a damn clue if anyone is quitting or not.
[...]
I've made three new accounts in the last month, but they're not going to make up for some of the people who have gone from my community; corp chat is dead in every player corp I'm in, and it's been consistently like that since two days after Retribution. Market trading has never been easier - for me a clear sign that less people are playing.


Hello Gelatine,

If you want to let CCP know how you are thinking about Retribution, try their survey via http://retribution.questionpro.com/
Please let them know what you like or dislike or what they should do better.
Thanks. Big smile

Additional: YOU are right! There was barely enough time between these two events for patch day for Retribution (04.12.2012) and the days for CSM 7 meeting (12.12.-14.12.2012) to give a valid statistik or funded and reliable statement, if you take the meeting minutes as resource.

NOTE: at least 40 petitions concerning the bounty mechanic within the first 8 days of Retribution. Roll

Issue with the bounty system emerged the moment Retribution went live.

Anyone that would have quit due to the bounty system would have done so in the first week.
Players are not stupid. We are never left quessing when CCP is taking steps to correct something. It took them 3 days to correct a UI issue that made it pretty much unbearable to play after Retribution. I posted about my issue, and CCP responded directly; indicating there was a fix incoming.

There was no question that the almost trivial issue I had with the UI change would have resulted in a cancellation of subs, and not just from me. An incredibly meaningless change to the way that the UI windows took priority was making EVE unbearable to people that maintained a large number of market orders. Many of us had a problem playing EVE with that change; if CCP didn't have any intention of correcting the issue, EVE simply wouldn't have been playable for a lot of people. CCP knew this, and they knew it was also something they couldn't NOT let us know they were fixing.

Anyone that had a problem with the bounty system, and was going to cancel their sub due to it, would have done so in the first week. It was obvious that CCP had NO INTENTIONS of changing it. No one needed a month to figure that out, and that amount of time isn't neccessary for someone who truely has an issue with it to decide to cancel their sub.

It would be silly of CCP to not be monitoring player activety on a daily basis for the week or two following the release of an expansion. It doesn't require them to wait a month to see that a large number of people quit, or to figure out why. When a large number of people quit EVE, CCP knows pretty much at moment it happens. They do not need a month to see how many people cancelled a subscription on the 5th of december.

Player activety did not go down in the days following the change of the bounty system. Either I'm imagining things, or player activity has actually gone up a little.


I'll bet you that the guy complaining about cancelling his two subs didn't even cancel his subs.

They aren't quitting because they aren't really uipset with the bounty system, and they know that the bounty system isn't making them get ganked. They're upset that the words WANTED are splashed over thier name, and that other people can see that they have a bounty.

Some people are upset over what they see as the implications of the bounty system, that having one on you makes you LOOK like a criminal to others.

Ironically enough, there are some people who have a problem with how being wanted can have some impact on their reputation; in a game where reputation means something. I can't say that I hold it against them; they're just going to have to RP their way around it.
Aineko Macx
#138 - 2013-01-19 21:24:53 UTC
I was negatively surprised about CCPs changed views on empire wardecs. Them being non-consensual (in most cases) for the decced party is and should remain integral part of the eve experience. My carebearcorp getting decced multiple times when I was a noob was ultimately one of the best things that could happen to the corp, because it forced us to organize, experiment with tactics and finally made us beat our aggressors. Taking that away would be a big loss IMO.

And that change of heart about the POS rework... seriously?? "it doesn't affect many players"? WTF
How about all 0.0 and wormhole players all other groups that use POSes?

Thinking one moment more about the quoted statement lets you infer that CCP is looking at the POS revamp in a too small way, with only revamped management/setup UI.

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE
#139 - 2013-01-20 03:00:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ms Michigan
Winthorp wrote:
You promised us POS revamps at the last fanfest and again at last CSM summit now all that has been pissed away because you feel we are not enough of a player base to spend the time on. We have long been patient on this issue this affects the whole WH community day to day as well as HS industry, LS research and industry and Nullsec living in the far reaches.

At the very least the pos security issues need to be addressed in the short term to make small corporations have viable safe options to recruit and grow, this only needs to be personal ship storage. In the Med term we deserve a well overhauled system to allow greater flexibility with modular POS design.

You say its business breaking to do POS revamp, we say its business breaking to ignore us yet again.

Take a look

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194625



THIS!

I CANNOT believe CCP would downplay POS/CORP SECURITY concerns! WOW - STUPID. Like Winthrop said - AT LEAST - IN THE SHORT TERM - add some security to POS's or more corp divisions to make it easier for small groups to grow and EVE to move along. Conflict to exist.

PLEASE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD do this. How hard is it to take divisions to 14 instead of 7. Or to password protect a CHA or MTX array. It is thousands of years in the future...we have faster than light travel...BUT ....We don't have a lock on the ship array.

Gimme a break.


FIX THESE THINGS ----AND WATCH EVE GROW. That "small group" you referred to, is actually a VERY LARGE group that is waiting for these changes = you are just too blind to see it.
Civire Desire
Minmatar Mining Manufacturing Mayhem and Madness
#140 - 2013-01-20 07:07:29 UTC
Haven't been arsed to read the minutes yet, but, having read all the responses, I would like to say this about POS's: THEY SUCK! Perhaps, JUST MAYBE? this might be why "only a small group" uses them?

They are a pain to set up.
They are a pain to take down.
They (and corp management) are a pain to set roles for.
They are nothing more than a speed bump for supercaps.
They are absolutely and totally insecure. If you want to lose something, put it in a POS!

If I had all the ISK back that I've lost from theft from POSes, all 12 of my toons (4 accounts, 3 chars each) could probably afford to be flying the supercap drake (The Nyx, I call it so because "everyone's flying one"). As a result, I will NEVER live out of a POS again until changes have been made.

CCP, Please, for the Love Of The Emperor of Amarr, PLEASE make POSes usable. Who knows? If they are usable, they just might get used. Rather like "Fire on Friend" Missiles: NO ONE uses them because, well, they DON"T WORK!