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CSM December minutes: Fighting: Mercenaries, Wars & Crimewatch, Bounty Hunting and FW

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CCP Xhagen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2013-01-16 16:46:52 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Dolan
Here you can discuss the "Fighting: Mercenaries, Wars & Crimewatch, Bounty Hunting and FW" sections of the CSM minutes.

You can find the full minutes here

CCP Xhagen | Associate Producer | @strangelocation
Rengerel en Distel
#2 - 2013-01-16 23:59:47 UTC
FW:
Having players take over for the faction navy would be good if the opposing militia went suspect in the wrong space. Perhaps that's too far of a stretch, but there should be a major consequence for invading the other militia's territory, especially in high sec.

Still hate the idea of the timer being on the overview. There's already too much free intel in the overview. The system name in the FW tool should flash when an offensive timer is being run. There could even be another column added with the number of plexes being run at the time.

I think the LP stores should be changed such that they really have only faction items and FW specific items. FW only boosters that only work in FW systems for example.

The timer should return when empty.

NPCs should spawn more than once to stop the plopping of alts in the plex while the main goes to the next.

Bounties:
Player contracted bounties with transfer of kill rights is really the next logical step. I'm not sure why they seem to be hesitant to do it. The idea that it would then become a feature inside a feature is off, because bounty hunting assumes already that there are bounty hunters. It can never become a real profession until the players have the options.
Perhaps the distinction is only in my head, but i see mercs as groups that are paid to do a certain job. Be that destroy a pos, gank rival miners, constantly ninja salvage/loot mission runners to drive them off, whatever. Mercs might be paid to go kill someone, but generally it's a broader task. A bounty hunter has the sole job of going out and killing someone, and getting paid when they do it.

Wars:
I don't understand the consternation when it comes to a non-consensual war. There are still many ways to shed a war you don't want to be in, on both sides. If the aggressor bit off too much, he doesn't pay or cancels the war. If the defender doesn't want the war, they drop the corp and reform, or just sit in an npc corp for a week.

Crimewatch:
I think now that the neutral logistics loophole has been closed, it's in a pretty good shape.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
mkint
#3 - 2013-01-17 00:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
Only read the fw part so far, and my thought is this: my loyalty is first to my corp, second to my alliance, third to my favored faction. I will not join fw at the cost of leaving my corp. Which is sad because I really want to participate. Even if I weren't permitted to take part in front line fighting, I would like to sign up to do highsec patrols, even if it meant I'd be kos in jita. Or chip in materiel if it meant system bonuses for my highsec home system. Or really any way to participate meaningfully without leaving my corp.

Edit: bounties: all the time we get people in help chat going 'omg I has bounty! Wut it meen!' Not a thing. Not a God damned thing. You will have it until you quit eve, or if you die lots in pvp. Nobody will hunt you down for a random bounty. Nobody will suicide you for it. It's your new tattoo, and like most tattoos, it doesn't mean a God damned thing. If you want a solution to the meaninglessness of bounties, have them expire like every other contract or escrowed service in eve.

Edit: Wardecs: the most fun I've had in eve, growing my alliance was under wardec. Even as a rookie, trying to muster an organized defense when none of us knew anything at all. In fact, the mere act of organizing got the aggressors who saw it with their spy alts to drop the dec. Once we moved into an alliance, mutual protection was the biggest selling and recruitment point, and was still the most fun we had. Our day to day actions under wardec mattered in an immediate way. That is why I favor the wardec mechanic, even if the aggressors are douche-nozzles. Oh, the lolz we had. The only thing about it that particularly should probably change is fixing pos's. The incentive is to keep pos's and logistics in alt corps, even discounting vulnerability to wardec. Highsec pos's should be more reasonable to acquire, more utilitarian to share facilities, and more interesting battlefields.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Frying Doom
#4 - 2013-01-17 03:51:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Retracted

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#5 - 2013-01-17 08:03:41 UTC
The sec tags idea is great in principle, but the suggested implementation seems rather anemic. Lowsec belt ratting is presently a dicey and not especially profitable affair. The rare hauler or faction spawn amounts to a nice windfall, but doesn't make the profession viable compared to the alternatives (e.g. exploration, which is both safer and more profitable). I doubt the addition of another such 'windfall' will make it substantially more attractive.

If sec tags were introduced in a manner that made them a more reliable boost to the lowsec ratters income, people might actually do it, especially since lowsec belt spawns are fairly weak and can easily be cleared in most pvp ships.
Yamir Tobias
Makiriemi Holdings
#6 - 2013-01-17 13:51:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Yamir Tobias
I think the big problem with the "wanted" tag is that it obscures a large chunk of your portrait, effectively allowing other players to spray paint over your personal representation of yourself. Perhaps if it could be toggled off, or even only toggled on if your sec status is below -5 (ie only true outlaws get the option of bragging about being 'wanted', and only if they want to).

Another interesting mechanic would be for CONCORD to pay bounties to kills on criminals in empire space (hi- and low-). This would need to be tweaked to ensure that player bounty + CONCORD bounty + FW LP payout didn't end up being more valuable than the loss.


On bounties and kill rights - why not just pay kill-right-enabled bounties to whoever activates the kill right? Or have a mechanism where a bounty can be attached to a kill right - if the target dies while under the effect of the kill right, the person who activated the kill right gets that bounty (subject to similar diminishing returns rules as for normal bounties).
Fergus Runkle
Truth and Reconciliation Council
#7 - 2013-01-17 17:29:39 UTC
"Tags4Secs"

Really, letting people throw isk (which most will have in extreme amounts) at the problem? Where is the ethic of can't do the time, don't do the crime? ..

Eve Online the cold, dark, universe where actions have consequences? .. oh wait those consequences mean going down to the seven eleven and buying back the sec you lost .. yeah lots of consequence there.

Sec Status should be de-coupled from PvE totally. Why should you need to shoot npc's to counter shooting players.

Lose sec by commiting a crime, gain sec by applying justice (ie shooting other criminals in the face)
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#8 - 2013-01-17 19:05:19 UTC
Quote:
Lose sec by commiting a crime, gain sec by applying justice (ie shooting other criminals in the face)

I.e. allow players to buy sec status back. Glad to see you agree.

Alts, dear boy.
Virtus Anhur
Galactic Imperium
#9 - 2013-01-17 20:35:53 UTC
Bounty System, either of the following needs to happen:

a) Raise the minimum bounty price and place an expiration on the bounty so that random bounties that people hand out these days like it's candy will disappear. It hurts new player moral and it hurts recruitment for corps/alliance when they have non-just bounties on them.

b) Make it a meaningful system, where John Doe places pays 50 million (war dec fee) + the bounty. The bounty can be assigned to a corp, or placed on a bounty listing where other pilots can accept the bounty. Once accepted the bounty hunter can attack the player or corp/alliance depending on the bounty type. They'll get a percentage like the current bounty system based on the damage dealt to the target. This system would benefit loan bounty hunters going after players, or merc corps going after whatever. The corp or player would get a 24 hour notice, just like a war dec that a bounty hunter or merc corp is coming after them.

But the current system is just filling high-sec with meaningless bounties placed on every pilot and corp without any just cause or ability to remove them apart from those afflicted to seek out someone to purposefully kill them or damage their corp, which is just ridiculous.
Knalldari Testpilot
#10 - 2013-01-18 03:17:12 UTC
Virtus Anhur wrote:
...
But the current system is just filling high-sec with meaningless bounties placed on every pilot and corp without any just cause or ability to remove them apart from those afflicted to seek out someone to purposefully kill them or damage their corp, which is just ridiculous.

this!
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#11 - 2013-01-18 07:57:03 UTC
Knalldari Testpilot wrote:
Virtus Anhur wrote:
...
But the current system is just filling high-sec with meaningless bounties placed on every pilot and corp without any just cause or ability to remove them apart from those afflicted to seek out someone to purposefully kill them or damage their corp, which is just ridiculous.

this!


I still don't understand how the bounties on your heads are hurting you. It literally is just a wanted sign and a paltry sum of isk. It means nothing except maybe a small payout should you ever be killed.

Honestly, the only change to the current bounty system that I am interested in would be a higher % for payout. And to stop receiving mails about people who I played bounties on early in the system, who clearly ran out of the bounty amount I played a while ago...yet I'm still getting mails every time they die.

Member of the Pink Pony Killboard Padding Alliance
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#12 - 2013-01-18 07:58:22 UTC
Virtus Anhur wrote:
Bounty System, either of the following needs to happen:

a) Raise the minimum bounty price and place an expiration on the bounty so that random bounties that people hand out these days like it's candy will disappear. It hurts new player moral and it hurts recruitment for corps/alliance when they have non-just bounties on them.

b) Make it a meaningful system, where John Doe places pays 50 million (war dec fee) + the bounty. The bounty can be assigned to a corp, or placed on a bounty listing where other pilots can accept the bounty. Once accepted the bounty hunter can attack the player or corp/alliance depending on the bounty type. They'll get a percentage like the current bounty system based on the damage dealt to the target. This system would benefit loan bounty hunters going after players, or merc corps going after whatever. The corp or player would get a 24 hour notice, just like a war dec that a bounty hunter or merc corp is coming after them.

But the current system is just filling high-sec with meaningless bounties placed on every pilot and corp without any just cause or ability to remove them apart from those afflicted to seek out someone to purposefully kill them or damage their corp, which is just ridiculous.


It's not ridiculous.

(unsupported assertions are fun!)

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#13 - 2013-01-19 02:05:27 UTC
Quote:
Masterplan then announced plans to decouple Security Status from CONCORD standing, which would be mostly an invisible change except for the way it would affect the Sanctum constellation, where CONCORD are the NPC police. Two step asked how this decoupling would take place, Masterplan explained that they likely would transfer current sec-status over and simply reset CONCORD standing to zero until the addition of CONCORD agents or another NPC system that would affect standings. All other mechanics that interact with CONCORD standing (except the NPC response in Sanctum obviously) would be switched to hook in to Security Status, which would go up and down in the same way.


What is the point of this change?
Also how/will this effect refining in Kemerk (part of the Sanctum constellation)?

I spent a while getting my Sec status/standings with CONCORD up so that I could refine with less tax.
Logix42
Taxation Damnation
#14 - 2013-01-20 02:44:01 UTC
Unless I missed something, it doesn't look like there was any mention of when CCP will add the % modifiers most wanted players.

As mentioned here http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73446
"The characters with the top bounties on them will be ranked, with the rank giving a bonus to the payout percentage for killing them."

Is this still planned? There really should be more motivation for bounty hunters to go after player ranked 10 or 20 than player ranked 1001 on the bounty list

Go beyond the edge of space... Explore
Traidir
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-01-20 21:37:15 UTC
FW
CSM Minutes wrote:
Unifex reminded everyone not to lose sight of the broader perspective. CCP can say that it wants to encourage PvP, but if people have to be paid to do it, is that a good idea? So what is it that is to be achieved with FW?

Answer: With a few improvements, FW could be an opportunity for players to influence the development of the NPC Empires and the game-lore by changing things like system sovereignty/sec-status/corporate composition/available services/bonuses/terrain of a system in Eve.

CSM Minutes wrote:
Hans continued and said that another thing that was a little disappointing in Retribution was the risk-factor for Plexes; at the top of my list for iteration would be making the timer visible system-wide; it would really make it easier to find the fight.
Soundwave answered that one thing they’ve talked about before is that these intel tools aren't very sandboxy. Right now it's “here is the FW intel tool, here is the Bounty Hunting intel tool

Global plex timers could be implemented by making them a time-limited buy-able option at the local (or maybe even neighboring) I-Hub? i.e.... You purchase the intel (a spy satellite, or a hacking program that co-ops the enemy's satellites) and then that program runs for the next 30 minutes, lighting up targets for everyone. For that matter... you could make the Codebreaker I module a part of this: one guy hacks the I-Hub to "light up" enemies in the system, while some of his allies defend him.

CSM Minutes wrote:
Two step suggested upgrades that act as low-power ganglinks. Hans disagreed with providing PvP bonuses.

Like w-space have every "bonus" also have a "detriment": this way, the "effect' is to shape and define the terrain rather than outright improve it.

Bounty Hunting
CSM Minutes wrote:
Alek asked why the baseline could not be moved up to 25% which could then scale to 30%. Soundwave was reluctant to do so because it would increase the likelihood of players abusing the payout system as they did in Faction Warfare earlier that year.

The reason the FW system was abusable was that some items were pandemically underutilized, and the market for these was being churned to inflate their value. So, shouldn't the market itself be the solution to such woes? If something is trading at a value substantially higher than its actual worth, someone should be able to take advantage (see 2008 mortgages). The fact that there are under-utilized objects that can be churned in this way without their being gamed by the market is both the source of the problem and a problem in and of itself. An item being used in this way is a glaring indication that the item itself needs a tweak to increase its desirability. For example the Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer Rig could use a boost and, consequently, is often under traded. Alternatively, you could tweak the valuing system to look for churn and treat under-traded-items differently.
Traidir
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-01-21 11:25:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Traidir
Crimewatch
Why is it that sec status decline is tied to killing players, yet sec status gain is tied to killing NPCs?

It's like saying that the opposite of hurting people is grinding faction. What? Isn't the opposite of hurting people: helping people?

If sec status loss is tied to how you treat players then so should sec status gain be. Otherwise sec status isn't a measure of your affinity for "law-abiding/law-enforcement", but, rather, a measure of how much pain you're willing to put yourself through to be a pirate.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#17 - 2013-01-24 22:07:20 UTC
Fergus Runkle wrote:
"Tags4Secs"

Really, letting people throw isk (which most will have in extreme amounts) at the problem? Where is the ethic of can't do the time, don't do the crime? ..

Eve Online the cold, dark, universe where actions have consequences? .. oh wait those consequences mean going down to the seven eleven and buying back the sec you lost .. yeah lots of consequence there.

Sec Status should be de-coupled from PvE totally. Why should you need to shoot npc's to counter shooting players.

Lose sec by comiting a crime, gain sec by applying justice (ie shooting other criminals in the face)

The issue with that idea is people could form "Shoot us!" corps full of -10 pilots. For a fee they let you shoot all their -10 pilots so you can reclaim your sec status.
Or two pirate corps could take turns killing each other.

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