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Dev blog: CSM meeting minutes are out

First post First post
Author
Arronicus
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#41 - 2013-01-16 22:15:59 UTC
This took me far too long to read, largely in part due to the painful eyebleed white background.

Suggestions for future meeting notes:

Condensed (No more than 5 page) Version
Off-white background colour, be it slate, dusty yellow, or some other less visually damaging background
Less mention of Ponies.



Many interesting points to read, but it really does highlight a lot of CSM, and general player frustrations along the lines of, CCP says X Y and Z are being planned, then A B and C are released, X and Y aren't mentioned again for a year, and Z is scrapped/ too hard.

That, and you can see the obvious closed minded blunt thinking occasionally from a couple of the devs, that has resulted in previous playerbase anger.

I would say it wasn't a bad read, but my eyes hurt now, and there was way too much filler.
Hidden Snake
The Church of Awesome
Awesome Alliance
#42 - 2013-01-16 22:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Hidden Snake
Sergei Alexi wrote:
So let me get this straight in terms of what i read pertaining to the FW discussion...

The caldari are having "demoralization issues"..

Did anyone on the CSM or part of these meetings even bother to talk to any of us directly, in private conversation? If so, did you take into account what corp or alliance you talked to? I implore people from the CSM or devs to contact me directly, and hear what my alliance believes to be our "issues". I honestly don't feel like we (Caldari Militia) have been properly represented as an entity. I approach you all on the level, and hope to have the same done to myself.




ROFL .... I guess CSM has absolutely no idea .... ROFL

and yes CCP is not speaking with Caldari .... proven by last talks before Inferno. They mentioned they invited some, but later it went out that 4Hmen representative was not present, was just mentioned in minutes. GO ON CCP ROLEPLAY.
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-01-16 22:21:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jada Maroo
CSM doods: What ship redesigns were you shown?


And I'll summarize the important part of the minutes:

CCP: "LULZ. YOU THOUGHT WE WERE REDOING POSES. LULZ."

So, basically, a nice FU there.

This is where CCP comes into the thread and pretends they haven't been raising our hopes on modular POSes the last year and that it was all in our heads.
Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#44 - 2013-01-16 22:32:45 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
CSM doods: What ship redesigns were you shown?


And I'll summarize the important part of the minutes:

CCP: "LULZ. YOU THOUGHT WE WERE REDOING POSES. LULZ."

So, basically, a nice FU there.

This is where CCP comes into the thread and pretends they haven't been raising our hopes on modular POSes the last year and that it was all in our heads.

It's like CCP Greyscale said about the possibility of a forthcoming supercap change: they are trying to manage expectations. Now that you don't expect anything for 2013 you can't be disappointed!

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Julia Fistage
Fistage Inc.
#45 - 2013-01-16 22:36:37 UTC
POSes affect almost everyone in game either directly or indirectly (t2 materials anyone?). The UIs are buggy, industry at POSes is a ballache, they are practically compulsory in w-space. Please don't overlook them!
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-01-16 22:44:56 UTC
What pisses me off is they try to make it sound just SO hard to do because POSes have an effect on EVERYTHING.

This is an excuse to put it off yet again.

Simply taking existing modules and and prettying them up and making them snap together in a modular way does not touch sovereignty. It doesn't have to change how ANYTHING else is done.

They have taken what should be a straightforward graphical update and mashed it together with so many new ideas that all of a sudden "Waaaaahhh! It's too hard to do!"

*Sighs*

This one just really gets under my skin.
Vanessa Vansen
Vandeo
#47 - 2013-01-16 23:14:09 UTC
Alright, I just rushed through the minutes scanning for "POS"

I'm sorry but I can't keeping myself from sharing an idea:

Let's assume that CCP intends to start changing the way POSes work (would fit other subjects as well but not all).
E.g. let's start with a modular POS.
The POS itself would consist of other modules then the current ones.
So you might be able to have both kinds of POSes at the same time for a while.

It has been done before, remember the fuel block introduction.
This way you could start tweaking up the new POSes without breaking the current ones.
And that could be reiterated within several expansions and the last one disabling the old POSes
(possibly transforming them into their new counterpart).

My 2 cents, although you might already have them


Before I forget, a little self advertisement of some ideas
Sassums
Repo Industries
#48 - 2013-01-16 23:17:00 UTC
So you have 113 pages of design ideas but one of the largest problems in EVE is the Corporation Management combined with the lack of POS management.

I see no information regarding this POS update that was slated for this year.

This broken system, especially for those of us that dwell in wormhole space needs to be fixed. It is an unacceptably broken system preventing many WH corps from recruiting due to the lack of security measures that need to be in place.

If I want one person to be able to access one hanger slot at one CHA, I should have the ability to do so. Not grant them access to that same slot, across all CHA's with the same particular access.

SMA's are broken too. They need to be set like CHA's so members don't need to worry about someone else taking, stealing, or using their ships like we do now. This system is unacceptable and needs to be fixed.

All of your updates are focused towards Null Sec. Give some love to the rest of us.
Mirel Dystoph
Perkone
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-01-16 23:17:54 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
Simply taking existing modules and and prettying them up and making them snap together in a modular way does not touch sovereignty. It doesn't have to change how ANYTHING else is done..

That's only true if the eve code wasn't a steaming pile of apeshit.

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 

ribo
New Eden Institute of Technology
#50 - 2013-01-16 23:17:59 UTC
I know I probably won't get an answer to this, but are we going to see CREST (or at least beta access) in the order of weeks, months, or years?

Trying to decide how much effort I want to put into some current apps for my corp, which I might want/have to rebuild after it's released.
Sassums
Repo Industries
#51 - 2013-01-16 23:21:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sassums
I don't care what they do to the POS or the management system as long as they do something. The same thing with Corporation management.

The system is unacceptable, affects everyone and every part of the game. Yet it is too large to address?

Give me a break. We pay you to design a game, not find the easy things to fix and leave the large things a total mess.

A small part of the community? Really?

Every wormhole corporation and alliance reside in a POS. Most every corp within EVE probably has a POS at some place in the Universe. And you have the audacity to say it is a small part of the community?

Sure maybe those that manage the POS's is a small percent of the community, but those that are affected are by and large the entire community,.
Fanatic Row
Neo T.E.C.H.
#52 - 2013-01-17 00:14:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Fanatic Row
Quote:
“We need things that only a few people can achieve, but it shouldn’t be based on how long you’ve played the game”.
Oh for crying out loud.

This is the sort of gibberish you'd expect from the regular Joe who has no understanding, nor care, for game mechanics. Not something that should ever make it out of a CSM meeting.

Unless you're prepared to put a hard cap on it, it will never ever happen in a MMO.

Maybe if you're going for the meta-game, but that's not what people have in mind when they say these things.

"I feel I've done everything in null-sec." – oh really? You've forged an alliance that took over half the map? No? Well then get cracking. Only 3 or 4 have ever come close.

I realize every MMO has to learn from its own mistakes, and can't ever learn from others when it comes to this apparently, but seriously; we've had the whole "Lets introduce Titans and they'll be really really rare, something for the few"- 5th grader kind of game design.

You are not a unique little snowflake and anything you can dream up, and think is within the realm of being possible for you, if you really work towards it, will be achieved by thousands of others as well.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#53 - 2013-01-17 01:04:50 UTC
As an industry focused player, and former wormhole occupant for several years I find the news of starbases a huge disappointment, and certainly feel the community was misled.

Then I had to Google "radial menu", and gasped in disgust.

Kudos to the CSM and CCP for getting the minutes out quickly.
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#54 - 2013-01-17 01:42:48 UTC
I hope I am wrong, but I get the impression there is no POS revamp/design coming? The "right team is not available" excuse has run its course and now the truth is coming out. Everyone seems to agree they need to be reworked. But unless we can sell it as a full release, you are SOL.

Too bad that magical team wasn't available before the release design changes. Instead we got the inventory changes. (Now these were not all bad, but I still firmly believe those changes should have been way behind a POS revamp)





EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie

Nair Alderau
The Blessed Chains of Freedom
#55 - 2013-01-17 02:28:28 UTC
Lady Zarrina wrote:
I hope I am wrong, but I get the impression there is no POS revamp/design coming? The "right team is not available" excuse has run its course and now the truth is coming out. Everyone seems to agree they need to be reworked. But unless we can sell it as a full release, you are SOL.

Too bad that magical team wasn't available before the release design changes. Instead we got the inventory changes. (Now these were not all bad, but I still firmly believe those changes should have been way behind a POS revamp)



That is the impression that we all got.

Dissapointing.

We'll see what CCP intends to tackle instead of POSes, I'll doubt it could have as positive an impact as a well done scalable (incl. personal) POS system.
Jonathan Priest
Perkone
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-01-17 02:29:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonathan Priest
Quote:
Unifex stated that what CCP did was spend effort and prototype what would make a good POS system. It
would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes. Focusing that amount of time and
effort on some small singular aspect of the game and delivering only that “is what will kill the business”.


I bet changes to POS management would affect more than a small group of players if player were allowed to set them up for themselves rather than the terrible corp only role based system we have.

Also, I have no idea why a good POS system would only affect people who manage them. They're important everywhere (except high sec I suppose, but they should be) and have the potential to make life better for all players.
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
#57 - 2013-01-17 02:48:43 UTC
there isn't exactly a thread on the change in direction re:modular POSs and they're spread throughout the minutes, so I'm going to stand here on my soapbox and yell into the wind, and hope someone pays attention

I feel like CCP have been hinting/teasing/hoping about 'meaningful change' in regards to POSs since...i dunno when. I feel like 'forever', but who really knows. To see CCP back down/wimp out from it again because it's 'too hard' is very distressing. Not to mention the very irritating catch-22 in which CCP refuses to update POSs because 'nobody uses them', yet everyone tells CCP that nobody uses them because they absolutely suck to use. I do somewhat understand the concern that it's too big for one expansion. I get that. You can't spend six months burning on POS code and doing nothing else, either.

Here's what I'll suggest: let's break things down into meaningful chunks, and make it an 18month/2 year project. Build the new POS system slowly as a 'farms and fields' conflict driver in all levels of space; eg, you anchor the new towers at certain beacons/exploration sites to seize control of them and provide resources/abilities, and keep the old system roughly the same until the new system is full featured enough to feasibly replace it.

Start out doing something simple for summer 2013 (small POSs anchored directly attached to comets, mining for moongoo - no guns or anything too complex, think something like a POCO), but expand iteratively from there over time to new areas while working on reimplementing POS functionality alongside this. Maybe you add med towers, reactors, guns, corp storage, and mooring in winter 2013; maybe large towers, industry, labs, reprocessing, market, contracts, and moon anchoring in summer 2014; and maybe the full system can be replaced by winter 2014 with full docking/captains quarters, forcefields, etc.
Sorxus
High Intellion
#58 - 2013-01-17 02:57:30 UTC
I am disappointed with CCPs view on POS'es. According to them "the POS system by itself would only affect a small portion of the community". Are they blind or ignorant? POS'es are used widely everywhere by everyone, let it be null-sec, low-sec, h-sec or w-space. POS system was released in 2003 and since then it didn't get a single improvement. They had no idea back then that large corporations and alliances could live in this cumbersome system. from day to day its pain in our asses.

CCP, wake up, do you want to increase people frustration?
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#59 - 2013-01-17 03:01:00 UTC
Chaos Incarnate wrote:
there isn't exactly a thread on the change in direction re:modular POSs and they're spread throughout the minutes, so I'm going to stand here on my soapbox and yell into the wind, and hope someone pays attention



I know, I see an ISD even closed a perfectly legit thread in GD about POSs and said to post this in the proper thread. Just where is the proper thread? Should it go in fixing nullsec (well it affects all aspects of Eve). Should it get buried in a vague thread about the next ten years?

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie

Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#60 - 2013-01-17 03:19:32 UTC
So much talk about sov space, nothing about high/low/NPC null. Before you start worrying so much about nullsec stuff, wouldn't it be a good idea to look at the High>Low>Null progression first? So that more people, you know, have a reason to care about nullsec features? That'd be nice.