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CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#41 - 2013-01-16 17:24:43 UTC
Jiska Ensa wrote:
Gain?

Why did you make new turrets? Why do missiles now launch from launchers instead of the middle of the ship?
Why do drones have models when few people ever zoom in on them?
Why did you make new nebula backgrounds? Why do we have 4 different Captain's Quarters? Why did you redo the character creator? Why V3 (or V-anything) the ships? Why does Eve have music? Why do POS shields have that weird pulse effect? Why is there a glorified acid-trip when our ships are in warp? Why did you add a brand new effect for jump drives?

The "gain" would be "it looks cool" or "adds realism/emersion."

And honestly is it really that hard to have everything operate in an rotational reference frame relative to the nearest celestial body? How hard is it to have all structures, ships, bookmarks, drones, wrecks, hell just the entire GRID, orbit around a moon/planet/star? All bookmarks/anchor points out to a certain distance from a moon/planet could be written as a function of radial distance, and angle in two dimensions, and then when someone warps to it a grid is created at the appropriate location based on the current position of that rotational reference frame. Or something. I used to know this stuff but it's amazing how much math one can forget.

After all, Eve isn't about "Why?", it's about "Why not?" :)
The "loss" would be a lot of systems would have to rewritten to support a dynamic grid system and then that dynamic grid system would have to be explained to players. A lot of the thing you mention above we did to add to the immersion in the world but not at the cost of complicating game play. Rotating planets might complicate game play.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#42 - 2013-01-16 17:25:22 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Because it would create an awful lot of hassle for little to no gain.
To expand on that, what would be the gain?

When the new nebula backgrounds were added, you also added the nearby stars in the sky and pointed the stargates at them. Those last two additions gained us nothing in terms of game play, yet you did them anyway. The reason you did them is it looks cool and it adds to immersion; it helps us feel like we really are in three dimensional space.

Imagine sitting at your POS watching the moon slowly move and change phase as you orbit, and other moons transiting across the planet as they orbit, or Jita 4-4 going into and out of eclipse at it orbits.

If we get a POS revamp, corp and alliances will start placing small stations all over the place. If these provide system upgrades (replacing the current mechanic) they become targets for small gangs. Fighting spreads all over the solar system rather than being confined to gates and major stations. The planets and moons are the landscape for these conflicts, and having that landscape change may provide some interesting twists to the combat. There could even be more: projectors that transmit detrimental effects from one solar system to another that work best when the planets are in certain positions.

I actually thought about how orbiting items could be implemented. What I came up with is there would be a region around any object, planet, moon or station, that is dragged around with it. If you are in that region your speed is zero when you are not moving with respect to the object. Bookmarks would also get dragged around with that local coordinate system.

See my reply right above.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#43 - 2013-01-16 17:27:21 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I would personally like to see astral bodies have rotation. Not orbit though.

I wouldn't mind being able to sit ouside a station and actually see the planet rotate ever so slightly. Then if you warp to the planet that rotation wouldn't be visible as you would then use a point on the planet itself to afix yourself in space, at which point you'd technically be rotating with the planet.

It does't have to be an actual rotation though. They already have cloud paterns and such that can be seen moving on the surface. The land, however, is always the same when I look a the planet.

This would probably be more work than it's worth, but would be "cool" to see.

I also wouldn't mind if moons had an orbit around planets.
Where can you sit at one planet and see another though? The only time I ever see a planet is when I'm at a station in orbit around it, and you woudln't be able to percieve it moving because you would technically be moving right along with it.

Up until DUST was released to Tranquility, all planets did rotate.
And we had them rotate because it was cool. Note that they rotated at absurd speeds so you could actually see the rotation in a very short time span. In preparation for the release of DUST we stopped having them rotate since the rotation complicated new game play.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
Di Mulle
#44 - 2013-01-16 17:28:03 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
It is impossible to get a location using only the sun. You need something like 4 "fixed" points in space to plot a location, and again, that location is always relative to the bodies use to get it.

Space is 3-dimensional, so you would need 3 coordinates relative to some specific reference point. Using the star and a Cartesian coordinate system, any given point in a system would given by a specific distance from the star in a direction X, another distance from the star in a direction Y orthogonal (perpendicular) to X, and another distance from the star in a direction Z orthogonal to both X and Y.

There are other coordinate systems one could use, cylindrical being the most intuitive with the way EVE is set up, but they all only require a single reference point.

Hooray geometry!


While the space indeed is 3-dimensional, you need 4 reference points to set your coordinate system unequivocally. To make it more clear, you need TWO points to set a direction. Not one.

Hooray geometry! Twisted
<<Insert some waste of screen space here>>
Aston Martin DB5
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#45 - 2013-01-16 17:29:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Aston Martin DB5
Tippia wrote:
Because it would create an awful lot of hassle for little to no gain.



Spoken like a true dev alt.

And your opinion regarding animated turrets?
Joneleth Rein
#46 - 2013-01-16 17:50:36 UTC
RomeStar wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Because it would create an awful lot of hassle for little to no gain.
To expand on that, what would be the gain?



The gain would be that if you set a bookmark anywhere in a system based off the star as a fixed point you can come back to that bookmark say 6 months down the road and it now becomes a good safe point that is so many AU's away from any highly traveled route. This of course wont work if the post above you is put in place as it will be a defined point on a grid.


I guess what I was trying to say is that it would be nice to bookmark safe spots outside of warp paths between celestials or gates or whatever.


Which I think, is what you should have said the first time around. Suggesting a mechanic without describing it's real purpose in the context it's supposed to exist, is usually the faster way to get your idea ignored/rejected by any developer. I'm not trying to bash you OP or anything.Just trying to explain that devs are not stupid. They know how their systems works, what they can and can't really do in valid time and if something's possible or not. A mechanic without purpose will always be dropped, in favor of one with a purpose (short or or long-term).

"Why don't we have a way to bookmark safe spots outside of warp paths between celestials or gates or whatever?"

Will probably get better results. If it's done by design then you can judge for yourself if the feature is something you believe needs to change or if it's an oversight someone will take note and deal with it since you'r the one mentioning. Somebody might have even asked it before, and heard the answer too *shrug* Asking your questions the right way goes a long way people Question

As for the the bookmarking safe spots. We have but it's actually part of the content. Go out and make em with an interceptor or a cov-ops. This will actually require you to fly to region and experience how to find the safe spots you want. If you'r not up for it this is an MMO and you should have buddies that like to go out and create tacticals and safe spots for various ops and squads.Fly with them to get to know them as well.Fortunately you can share corporation bookmarks,altough i would really appreciate a fancier way to share bookmarks (ahem bookmark addons). In other words, this is a component players will use as part of their gameplay. Replacing it with a fixed ui component (warp in system, open some sort of map and create your safe spot where you want it), will greatly diminish it's tactical weight and remove that from players who might actually like that.

If you think that the current way provides a hindrance to your gameplay by all means explain how :)

Spider Pig! Spider Pig! Does what a Spider Pig does.. Can he swing? From a web.. No he can't. He's a pig.
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-01-16 17:55:09 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
There is an actual problem with this suggestion though. Planets move at something like 30km/sec. EVE ships have this ridiculous speed limit that stops them doing much over 8km/sec. Unless the ship physics is also made realistic you would never be able to catch a planet to do an orbital bombardment.


Planets don,t move in EvE ,Tuxford pushed the pause button
It is hard to get your cross hair on a moving planet

R.S.I2014
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#48 - 2013-01-16 17:56:30 UTC
Some Rando wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Insta undocks would probably need to be handled differently, although those may still be okay in relation to the stations they were made for depending on how the grid works.

It has nothing to do with a grid and everything to do with coordinates. In order to move an insta along with the station you'd have to designate the BM as "in relation to" the station (and "in orientation to") and then run calculations to move both. The math certainly wouldn't be that intensive, but the additional information you'd have to keep track of might slow things down.

Ranger 1 wrote:
The easy way to do this (relatively speaking) would be to update the planet and moon positions at downtime, which might be the most workable way to implement this.

This is the best way to do it, IMO. The gain would be a bigger sense of "space", the new BM positions that would open over time, etc...


Well actually if "fixed grids" were used you only need do one calculation (in this case for the planet or moon the station was in geosynchronous orbit over. All coordinates on that moving grid would remain the same (for the station and for your undock) unless your undock bookmark was far enough away so as to be off that grid.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-01-16 17:59:55 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I would personally like to see astral bodies have rotation. Not orbit though.

I wouldn't mind being able to sit ouside a station and actually see the planet rotate ever so slightly. Then if you warp to the planet that rotation wouldn't be visible as you would then use a point on the planet itself to afix yourself in space, at which point you'd technically be rotating with the planet.

It does't have to be an actual rotation though. They already have cloud paterns and such that can be seen moving on the surface. The land, however, is always the same when I look a the planet.

This would probably be more work than it's worth, but would be "cool" to see.

I also wouldn't mind if moons had an orbit around planets.
Where can you sit at one planet and see another though? The only time I ever see a planet is when I'm at a station in orbit around it, and you woudln't be able to percieve it moving because you would technically be moving right along with it.

Up until DUST was released to Tranquility, all planets did rotate.
And we had them rotate because it was cool. Note that they rotated at absurd speeds so you could actually see the rotation in a very short time span. In preparation for the release of DUST we stopped having them rotate since the rotation complicated new game play.

You guys got to stop that.

Before I wrote what I sat here for a bit thinking I was going crazy. Could have swore they rotated; I ended up thinking I had just imagined it.

I'm not crazy!
well...
Not for that reason.


I'm guessing it was the bombing stuff and the need to afix a ship to a set point. I could imagine that the two of them would be a nightmare to code.

I'd rather that time go to WiS to be honest. Lol
:hint:walkinginstations:hint:
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-01-16 18:16:16 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Well actually if "fixed grids" were used you only need do one calculation (in this case for the planet or moon the station was in geosynchronous orbit over. All coordinates on that moving grid would remain the same (for the station and for your undock) unless your undock bookmark was far enough away so as to be off that grid.

I would assume most instas would be off-grid for a variety of reasons.

CCP has no sense of humour.
Gibbeous Moon
Heimdal Freight and Manufacture Inc
#51 - 2013-01-16 20:10:23 UTC
The orbiting planets, which I assume would move slowly, would be useful.

In some systems all of the planets are all on one side and if one could have the planets do an orbit every six months or a year then we have more chance to make bookmarks in deep space.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#52 - 2013-01-16 20:17:05 UTC
Aston Martin DB5 wrote:
Spoken like a true dev alt.

And your opinion regarding animated turrets?

Spoken like an actually true tin-foiler. You don't have to be a dev to see the problem.

My opinion on animated turrets is that they have no bearing on the issue.
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#53 - 2013-01-16 20:43:14 UTC
The amount of systems in EvE, with all the various things orbiting stars, would be an immense amount of re-programing, just so that you can go "ooh, doesn't it look pretty?" I'd argue that the whole "warping through planets and stations" is a more pressing consideration, and certainly is the main thing that my non-EvE-liking friends scoff at. Though i imagine its almost impossible to fix for exactly the same reason.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2013-01-16 21:55:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Dear CCP Explorer ...

Move planets during downtime and recalculate vectors accordingly,
or recalculate vectors on a per use basis and then save them.

Nothing besides vectors would actually change and people still get planets orbitting a star.
It's not realtime, but so what ? It's change on a daily basis !


How about that ?
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#55 - 2013-01-16 22:59:13 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Because it would create an awful lot of hassle for little to no gain.
To expand on that, what would be the gain?



A more dynamic sandbox?

End of bookmarks as we know them?

The chance for the Devs to actually create a real autopilot for our ships? Shocked





Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#56 - 2013-01-16 23:19:59 UTC
I don't know how much would change. You pilot to a beacon on a station, you do not warp to a station location. The station is always orbiting a planet. If you warp to a planet the shipboard computer can calculate its relative position based upon date, time etc. Pretty sure futuristic computers could keep track of the location of planets in a few thousand systems rather easily. Would have to update for Ceti Alpha Six situations but that is about it.

Immersion factor, it would be an A+. But as I have said before CCP looks for easy and science and realism be damned!
GreenSeed
#57 - 2013-01-16 23:42:01 UTC
this is clearly a nerf highsec thread.


OP had us confused for a moment.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2013-01-16 23:46:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Aza Ebanu
Must be some bored folks out there if they want to watch simulated astronomy.

Maybe CCP should develop Discovery Channel Online for them.
Signal11th
#59 - 2013-01-17 08:40:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Aston Martin DB5 wrote:
Spoken like a true dev alt.

And your opinion regarding animated turrets?

Spoken like an actually true tin-foiler. You don't have to be a dev to see the problem.

My opinion on animated turrets is that they have no bearing on the issue.



Spoken like a true politician Blink

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-01-17 09:35:27 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Because it would create an awful lot of hassle for little to no gain.
To expand on that, what would be the gain?

Semi related:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD9OV1Zrs4I

Star gates would connect systems depending on proximity and other random goodness. With the inner core of the galaxy spinning fastest and the outer stars on the slowest cycle, it would create some interesting situations. Granted the rate of the galaxy spiral should be slow, but fast enough to have a few new connections per day.

Maybe in another ten years something of this magnitude and scope will be seen for EVE. Food for thought.