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Rebuttal: Nerf Without Cause: Jump Drives

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Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
#41 - 2013-01-15 21:53:34 UTC
as a solo pilot living in low/NPC null, i'm not a fan of nerfing jump drive ranges. doing this would hurt small-time operators such as myself and help keep vast areas of null completely empty. with current jump drive ranges, i can setup small operations in NPC null regions without an extensive POS or Cyno network. reducing the jump range of caps would ensure that only those large organizations with sufficient logistical support could live and thrive in null.
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#42 - 2013-01-15 21:54:07 UTC
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Some Rando wrote:
Mynnna speaks from experience in a sov-holding null-sec alliance.
OP speaks from experience gained from a Youtube video.
Mynnna is an obvious member of a sov-holding null-sec alliance.
OP is a member of a high-sec NPC corp.

OP is speaking a little bit out of their league.


Ignore who is speaking, look at what is being said. Otherwise you have appeal to authority fallacy.


Post with your main or GTFO.
Cid Tazer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-01-15 21:55:27 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Cid Tazer wrote:
Here's an alternate non-original but composite set of thoughts:
-> Add a 5 min (just a for instance, may be too long/short) post jump timer for the jump drive to cooldown etc. This is just to increase the amount of time a cap fleet is at midpoints which could lead to ambushes/conflict.
-> Greatly increase the range of a Covert Ops Portal. Allow immediate locking.

I think these two are reasonable, but not the others.


Any particular reason on the short no locking or slightly shorter titan bridge ranges (maybe 5%)? I was trying to find a way to differentiate between hot drop o'clock (covert ops portal) and rapid fleet movement (jump portal). I figure that with a 30 second no lock timer, you would be able to bridge into system but at a safer location than directly into a battle. If you want to bridge right on top, I think a covert ops portal is more appropriate.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2013-01-15 21:55:59 UTC
"Heh CCP nerfed cynos, okay everyone in cyno carriers jump, light and everyone else jump to whichever one is closest alphabetically to you"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2013-01-15 21:57:51 UTC
Cid Tazer wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Cid Tazer wrote:
Here's an alternate non-original but composite set of thoughts:
-> Add a 5 min (just a for instance, may be too long/short) post jump timer for the jump drive to cooldown etc. This is just to increase the amount of time a cap fleet is at midpoints which could lead to ambushes/conflict.
-> Greatly increase the range of a Covert Ops Portal. Allow immediate locking.

I think these two are reasonable, but not the others.


Any particular reason on the short no locking or slightly shorter titan bridge ranges (maybe 5%)? I was trying to find a way to differentiate between hot drop o'clock (covert ops portal) and rapid fleet movement (jump portal). I figure that with a 30 second no lock timer, you would be able to bridge into system but at a safer location than directly into a battle. If you want to bridge right on top, I think a covert ops portal is more appropriate.

Because there's no particular reason I shouldn't be allowed to hotdrop with a titan bridge? Restricting this capability to black ops only severely reduces the ships that you can do this with.
Titan bridge ranges are already pretty short.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#46 - 2013-01-15 22:00:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarsas Phage
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
FourierTransformer wrote:
Yes only CFC, HBC, Solar, etc. have any right to discuss jump drives. Never mind that everyone from WH to NPC 0.0 uses carriers and JF's all the damn time.

Tell me more about WH corps using jump drives.


If your WH opens up to 0.0, 10ly from the closest empire lowsec system, and you need to get a resupply carrier/rorq/JF in, are you going to:

A) bother with finding a WH chain to lowsec, or
B) light a cyno in the 0.0 your WH exits to and jump straight there and enter WH.

Of course WH corps don't use jump drives in their WHs, but they do use them to get to and between them (via k-space) quite often.
Cid Tazer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2013-01-15 22:02:13 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Cid Tazer wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Cid Tazer wrote:
Here's an alternate non-original but composite set of thoughts:
-> Add a 5 min (just a for instance, may be too long/short) post jump timer for the jump drive to cooldown etc. This is just to increase the amount of time a cap fleet is at midpoints which could lead to ambushes/conflict.
-> Greatly increase the range of a Covert Ops Portal. Allow immediate locking.

I think these two are reasonable, but not the others.


Any particular reason on the short no locking or slightly shorter titan bridge ranges (maybe 5%)? I was trying to find a way to differentiate between hot drop o'clock (covert ops portal) and rapid fleet movement (jump portal). I figure that with a 30 second no lock timer, you would be able to bridge into system but at a safer location than directly into a battle. If you want to bridge right on top, I think a covert ops portal is more appropriate.

Because there's no particular reason I shouldn't be allowed to hotdrop with a titan bridge? Restricting this capability to black ops only severely reduces the ships that you can do this with.
Titan bridge ranges are already pretty short.


If a titan bridge lets you move massive fleets quickly and drop them anywhere with no penalty at ranges longer than a covert ops portal, why would anyone invest the SP and effort into using a Covert Ops Portal/Cyno gen if Covert Ops portals don't do anything better than a titan bridge? From what I've seen and used, the bonus of a covert ops bridge not being visible to the entire system is pretty weak compared to what a titan bridge does.
Selw kotsidakia
Three Deep Cuts
#48 - 2013-01-15 22:02:17 UTC
If i recall well, werent goons qqing about a single frigate being able to pop hundrends of supers while Raiden&allies were holding them that way in the north last winter? Now they are ok with that?
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2013-01-15 22:03:39 UTC
Selw kotsidakia wrote:
If i recall well, werent goons qqing about a single frigate being able to pop hundrends of supers while Raiden&allies were holding them that way in the north last winter? Now they are ok with that?


npc alt with nothing to add as usual

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2013-01-15 22:04:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Ok so what we have here, is 2 sides (actually 3 since Mynna is focused primarily on freighting) arguing about nerfing jumpdrives and the fact of warping all over to insta gank a huge force with a bigger blob of their own.

Let's not change any of that then.

Let's change the detrimental aspect of the ships using those benefits!

You like cloaking but your ships isn't "designed" for cloaking? Enjoy 30 seconds of not doing a damned thing after you decloaked.

You like jumping in a non jumping ship (jf etc) enjoy a 120 second timer of not doing a damned thing once you land. Call it a "magnetic realignment".

That way, you have a force that is required to prepare when jumping in. You have smaller groups who want to try to regulate their fights. Noone loses control. Everyone wins.

Granted, not "everyone" since there will still be casualties. But there is a pro and a con to it all that A)is fair to large and small and freight!, and B)introduces a mechanic to an existing feature that really doesn't HARM anyone regardless of what area of sector space they live in.

EDIT-Crap, already was posted lol

Cid Tazer wrote:
Here's an alternate non-original but composite set of thoughts:
-> Add a 5 min (just a for instance, may be too long/short) post jump timer for the jump drive to cooldown etc. This is just to increase the amount of time a cap fleet is at midpoints which could lead to ambushes/conflict.
-> Add a 30 second post jump lock delay from cyno/titan bridging. Some kind of lore reason but to minimize hot drop o'clock from non black ops ships. If you want to hot drop o'clock, I think blops fleets are more appropriate than Abaddons for instance.
-> Greatly increase the range of a Covert Ops Portal. Allow immediate locking.
-> Slightly shrink the range of a titan bridge (Jump Portal).

I know that I enjoy using titan bridges (thank you titan pilots for those) but the fact that you can bridge longer from a titan than a covert ops cyno can bridge seems backwards to me since black ops are supposed to be able to strike deep into enemy territory.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#51 - 2013-01-15 22:06:06 UTC
if you'll notice nobody is talking about single frigates opening cynos, something which is still dumb as hell because it allows the placement of disposable rookie ship cyno alts all over the map but hey carry on

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2013-01-15 22:07:04 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Cid Tazer wrote:
If a titan bridge lets you move massive fleets quickly and drop them anywhere with no penalty at ranges longer than a covert ops portal, why would anyone invest the SP and effort into using a Covert Ops Portal/Cyno gen if Covert Ops portals don't do anything better than a titan bridge? From what I've seen and used, the bonus of a covert ops bridge not being visible to the entire system is pretty weak compared to what a titan bridge does.

That's strange, because we have absolutely no shortage of people doing covert hot drops.

Black ops are much cheaper than titans, they're much quicker to train for, they can dock, they're much easier and safer to move around, they can use stargates, and they can bridge from deep within enemy territory without needing a safe POS, something a lone titan pilot would be stupid to try. The fleets they bridge also have significantly expanded maneuverability due to the fact that every ship has a covops cloak and is cruiser sized or smaller.
Yes they do need a buff, but their bridge does have a distinct and separate role from a titan bridge already.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2013-01-15 22:08:59 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
You like jumping in a non jumping ship (jf etc) enjoy a 120 second timer of not doing a damned thing once you land. Call it a "magnetic realignment".


This is dumb because it'd make supercaps literally immune when tacklers can't do a damn thing after being bridged in and they'd have plenty of warning when hostile tacklers are on the way

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
FourierTransformer
#54 - 2013-01-15 22:09:51 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
FourierTransformer wrote:
Yes only CFC, HBC, Solar, etc. have any right to discuss jump drives. Never mind that everyone from WH to NPC 0.0 uses carriers and JF's all the damn time.

Tell me more about WH corps using jump drives.

You sir are clearly well versed and experienced on the topic in question. I concede defeat.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2013-01-15 22:12:04 UTC
FourierTransformer wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
FourierTransformer wrote:
Yes only CFC, HBC, Solar, etc. have any right to discuss jump drives. Never mind that everyone from WH to NPC 0.0 uses carriers and JF's all the damn time.

Tell me more about WH corps using jump drives.

You sir are clearly well versed and experienced on the topic in question. I concede defeat.

I wasn't saying you don't use them, you just don't use them as often or for the same reasons we do.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-01-15 22:16:25 UTC
Andski wrote:
if you'll notice nobody is talking about single frigates opening cynos, something which is still dumb as hell because it allows the placement of disposable rookie ship cyno alts all over the map but hey carry on

I keep wanting to meniton this, but I feel like it exceeds my own actual knowledge of how things work in EVE.

I think more people should probably think about this.


lol, I said more people should think.
I'm an idiot.
Fanatic Row
Neo T.E.C.H.
#57 - 2013-01-15 22:17:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Fanatic Row
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
"I've never even been in nullsec but I have an opinion on supercaps anyway!"
"Everyone in 0.0 has hi-sec ISK alts; except me!"

Seriously, that schtick is getting old. Even if I had never been in 0.0, it's not like all those pro 0.0 players have done such an awesome job tending to their own sandbox.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#58 - 2013-01-15 22:20:07 UTC
Wow, this whole topic has really gone downhill fast...

What's the reasoning where you have a detailed opinion on things you are utterly clueless of? I really don't get it...

The nature of force projection in Eve, its relation to other issues in nullsec, and the mechanics involved are all pretty complex on their own, never mind altogether. Yet for some reason people believe that fifty clueless monkeys flinging their poop at the walls is going to "solve" something.

Honestly, just step back for a minute and think about this.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
FourierTransformer
#59 - 2013-01-15 22:21:18 UTC  |  Edited by: FourierTransformer
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
FourierTransformer wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
FourierTransformer wrote:
Yes only CFC, HBC, Solar, etc. have any right to discuss jump drives. Never mind that everyone from WH to NPC 0.0 uses carriers and JF's all the damn time.

Tell me more about WH corps using jump drives.

You sir are clearly well versed and experienced on the topic in question. I concede defeat.

I wasn't saying you don't use them, you just don't use them as often or for the same reasons we do.

As I and other posters have said, you clearly have more experience and knowledge than I do in this topic. I defer to your clearly superior knowledge on all things WH life.

/sarcasm off
You clearly have never been in wh for any length of time. There exist c5's and c6's with dozens (sometimes hundreds) of caps and jf's. Where your corp runs the same same jump routes to lowsec over and over, most respectable wh alliances run new routes every day through hostile space. If anything, they have more experience with jump drive logistics than you do.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2013-01-15 22:22:01 UTC
Fanatic Row wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
"I've never even been in nullsec but I have an opinion on supercaps anyway!"
"Everyone in 0.0 has hi-sec ISK alts; except me!"

I don't, actually.

Fanatic Row wrote:
Seriously, that schtick is getting old. Even if I had never been in 0.0, it's not like all those pro 0.0 players have done such an awesome job tending to their own sandbox.

We've done just fine, thank you.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)