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Rebuttal: Nerf Without Cause: Jump Drives

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Skorpynekomimi
#21 - 2013-01-15 20:50:45 UTC
It's only an issue because the people doing the projection of power have so much power to project.

Don't like it? Take them down. Start an alliance, bully your way into a few systems, and grow to eclipse them.
Or just join them and take them down from the inside.
*****, just find out where Mittens lives, gatecamp his mailbox, and steal his identity, THEN take them down. I don't care. Just stop running your mouth on the forums.

***, you're in an NPC corp! What do you even have to say? Post with your ***** main, or shut the ** up.

Economic PVP
Burseg Sardaukar
Free State Project
#22 - 2013-01-15 21:07:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Burseg Sardaukar
While a lot of people are nitpicking the 2 carrier limit per cyno, I don't think the heart of the idea is completely off. It is rather bizarre that a solitary frigate with <500 units of liquid ozone can summon totalhelldeth to a specific point in space.

I think to "correct" this force-projection issue, the OP is correct and it should be by changing the amount of ships not the distance. While exploitable, a limit on the number of cynos active in one system could be a fix, a spool-up timer could be a fix, a reasonable mass limit could be a fix, different sized cynos with different fuel req's and timers could be a fix... there are tons of ideas there, especially when combined at various levels... maybe I'll weigh the pro's and cons in my own crap blog this week.

Can't wait to dual box my Dust toon and EVE toon on the same machine!
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#23 - 2013-01-15 21:10:49 UTC
Carriers and jump freighters both have a major purpose, moving subcaps around the universe. Why favour a jump freighter, which would require an alliance to have multiple stocks of ships all over the universe which isn't cheap, over a carrier, where you can have a single stock of subcaps? Large, rich, and established groups already have huge advantages over small ones when it comes to deploying en masse, let's not give them more.

If you wanted to move your ships all around the universe but had cyno limits, you could just fit a cyno on every single carrier (or supercarrier, or any ship that you can eject from a carrier or supercarrier) and daisy-chain them through, removing any limitation there is. It only makes it harder for small groups to move their stuff around, because if they do not have supercapital supremacy they will get dropped by people who can do stupid things and get away with it.
Aprudena Gist
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-01-15 21:11:33 UTC
Have you ever repped a pos before? do you have any idea how many carriers you need to do that in a reasonable amount of time let along an ihub or any other sov structure.

you would need something like 20 cynos to get a rep carrier gang to fix sov structures. Its like you've never used anything in 0.0 before.
Fanatic Row
Neo T.E.C.H.
#25 - 2013-01-15 21:12:08 UTC
Shadowschild wrote:
Fanatic Row wrote:
How is that not a desirable outcome?

Sorry, but 0.0 shouldn't use Jita as a shopping mall. 0.0 should rely on their own industry; of course for that to happen other changes need to come as well. None are however going to be of any value when going to Jita and filling up your JF is a simple task for the individual.
The day ABC + M ores stop making their way up there, is the day high sec goes to **** in a handbasket.
As for the cyno talk, listen, when your defending space from multiple entry points you need the ability to field ships (carriers) & supplies (jump freighters). The longer the range the better!
No, it's the day ABCM becomes valuable enough for people to care about them again.

Nobody is saying trade between hi-sec and 0.0 should be thwarted completely, but if you're living in the far outer reaches of 0.0, importing should be the least preferable way of getting your stuff, as opposed to buying something produced locally.

If exporting low-ends is financially viable, go for it. Having to import most stuff however, because the mechanics suck, when everything needed to produce it is basically floating right outside your station – that's just dumb.

This is about power projection tho.

If reducing jump ranges would help reduce the problem, I'd be all for it. It will just make it slower and more expensive however, but still doable. Which will lead to the ones poopsocking the most having the upper hand. History has shown what that does for burnout and general "fun" life out in 0.0 – and I'm pretty sure nobody but the most serious of basement-dwellers and RMTers are interested in that.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-01-15 21:15:15 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
MIrple wrote:
No More Heroes wrote:
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Who is this mythical independent small alliance Mynna is concerned about


Black Legion, 401k, Bora Alis and XXPizzaXx living deep in the heart of Venal are a few. How you gonna do them like that?


So if a cyno had a mass limit of only 2 carries no Super carrier or Titan could jump? Only 1 Dread could cyno at a time.

We would build more than your hundred man corp.


What part of that is so difficult for you guys to grasp.

Where is a small group, with very limited sov, holding 10 titans?

Either you work with others or you don't. If you don't, you pay for that by losing your sov.
And in the end, it's working with other people that allows you to move easily across space. Whether it's being done with a titan bridge, a JF, or having to do every hop one at a time. If you're working with others your getting to your destination easier, and keeping your space safer, than by beig a belligerent **** to all of your neighbors.

No large entity in null exists because one group forced others to play with them.


I am not sure if you are attacking my post or just sperging. I never said I was for it just pointing out how the OP suggested 2 carriers mass to a cyno. It would not be feasible.

I apologize.

I thought you were making the case that by being able to move fewer supers due to mass, that smaller groups would gain an advantage.

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-01-15 21:22:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
While a lot of people are nitpicking the 2 carrier limit per cyno, I don't think the heart of the idea is completely off. It is rather bizarre that a solitary frigate with <500 units of liquid ozone can summon totalhelldeth to a specific point in space.

I think to "correct" this force-projection issue, the OP is correct and it should be by changing the amount of ships not the distance. While exploitable, a limit on the number of cynos active in one system could be a fix, a spool-up timer could be a fix, a reasonable mass limit could be a fix, different sized cynos with different fuel req's and timers could be a fix... there are tons of ideas there, especially when combined at various levels... maybe I'll weigh the pro's and cons in my own crap blog this week.

You, like the OP, are doing exactly what the article the OP is rebutting was addressing.

WE would build more titans to move more people.
NO limit would hurt us, it would hurt YOU.

If it took 2 extra titans to do it, that's what we would do.

Then there's the issue of,
What if the smaller guy can also build more. Now you've got a nerf that did NOTHING.


The very root of the issue comes down to numbers, and ability. You guys simply ignore this and think that some magical nerf will put smaller groups on par with big ones.

It's not a titan brige network because of how far they allow you to go, or how many you can send through on a single jump, it's a netwrok because we WORK WITH OTHERS. It doesn't matter what you do to them, as long as people are working together they can get around it.

Reducing the number of ships that can move on a single jump just means more titans.
But you guys ignore that.
RomeStar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-01-15 21:29:29 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Any reasonable change CCP would make would be only a minimal burden to large organizations. ]



Well of course we dont want to disturb the harmony of those large organizations afterall arent the goons the ones pulling the strings at CCP?

Signatured removed, CCP Phantom
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#29 - 2013-01-15 21:33:17 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
While a lot of people are nitpicking the 2 carrier limit per cyno, I don't think the heart of the idea is completely off. It is rather bizarre that a solitary frigate with <500 units of liquid ozone can summon totalhelldeth to a specific point in space.

I think to "correct" this force-projection issue, the OP is correct and it should be by changing the amount of ships not the distance. While exploitable, a limit on the number of cynos active in one system could be a fix, a spool-up timer could be a fix, a reasonable mass limit could be a fix, different sized cynos with different fuel req's and timers could be a fix... there are tons of ideas there, especially when combined at various levels... maybe I'll weigh the pro's and cons in my own crap blog this week.

You, like the OP, are doing exactly what the article the OP is rebutting was addressing.

WE would build more titans to move more people.
NO limit would hurt us, it would hurt YOU.

If it took 2 extra titans to do it, that's what we would do.

Then there's the issue of,
What if the smaller guy can also build more. Now you've got a nerf that did NOTHING.


The very root of the issue comes down to numbers, and ability. You guys simply ignore this and think that some magical nerf will put smaller groups on par with big ones.

It's not a titan brige network because of how far they allow you to go, or how many you can send through on a single jump, it's a netwrok because we WORK WITH OTHERS. It doesn't matter what you do to them, as long as people are working together they can get around it.

Reducing the number of ships that can move on a single jump just means more titans.
But you guys ignore that.



*listens to the whistling sound this statement makes while flying right over the heads of most of Eve's forumgoers*

And what a fine sound it was. Unfortunately, logic and common sense have no place here, so you basically wasted untold electrons posting this.
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#30 - 2013-01-15 21:34:43 UTC
Hi Rome, nice to hear form you o7

But I'd like to ask people to refrain from excessive conspiracy theorising, I don't want this thread locked by CCP.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#31 - 2013-01-15 21:37:29 UTC
His article seemed to focus on jump freighters, and logistical issues. I don't think anyone has issues with that. Supply your little respective empires to your hearts content. I'd argue the main issue is with the Titan Bridge. The ability to drop an insane fleet at distance is what makes null so safe. Who can be bothered to deal with that? No wonder everyone is so blue! No-one wants a titan bridge landing on their face.

An interesting read though, and here's to me hoping for another article focusing on Titan Bridges! Though i imagine the mittani will have a similar position, that of all the alliances looking to protect their interests, looking to keep it as it is. That way, they can keep making tons of isk in complete safety whilst moaning about highsec. Cool

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2013-01-15 21:41:04 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
A cyno mass limit is the right choice because it doesn't hurt individual pilots. Want to move a capital? No problem. Want to supply nullsec with a couple of jump freighters at the same time? No problem. Want to drop a few dreads or triage carriers into a fight? No problem. Want to move 350 supercapitals to the other side of the map within 5 minutes? Nope.jpg. Super blobs should have to be deployed long in advance of their usage. If you want to drop in unannounced to a fight, then do it with 5-10 supers, not 350.


"I want to be able to stomp people without risk of interference from PL"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2013-01-15 21:43:21 UTC
FourierTransformer wrote:
Yes only CFC, HBC, Solar, etc. have any right to discuss jump drives. Never mind that everyone from WH to NPC 0.0 uses carriers and JF's all the damn time.

Tell me more about WH corps using jump drives.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Fanatic Row
Neo T.E.C.H.
#34 - 2013-01-15 21:45:23 UTC
Andski wrote:
iskflakes wrote:
A cyno mass limit is the right choice because it doesn't hurt individual pilots. Want to move a capital? No problem. Want to supply nullsec with a couple of jump freighters at the same time? No problem. Want to drop a few dreads or triage carriers into a fight? No problem. Want to move 350 supercapitals to the other side of the map within 5 minutes? Nope.jpg. Super blobs should have to be deployed long in advance of their usage. If you want to drop in unannounced to a fight, then do it with 5-10 supers, not 350.


"I want to be able to stomp people without risk of interference from PL"
"I want to play EVE without billion ISK ships CCP can't get to scale at all; ruining it en masse"
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-01-15 21:47:10 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Xen Solarus wrote:
His article seemed to focus on jump freighters, and logistical issues. I don't think anyone has issues with that. Supply your little respective empires to your hearts content.


mynnna wrote:
Sofia Wolf wrote:
First fallacy is red herring of discussing exclusively how jump mechanics will affect solitary trading and supply jump freighters when actual need for change comes from excessive ease of deploying massive blobs of combat capitals and super capitals.

Second is that nerfing of jump drive mechanics could not be done in a way that would not affect typical way jump fighters are used. This is incorrect, there is no reason why default jump freighter jump rage could not be increased to compensate for jump calibration nerf.

Jump freighters are a necessary part of nullsec life and will continue to be such into the forseeable future, even after any notional buffs to local industry. Their use as a logistical backbone also dovetailed nicely with illustrating that Eve is bigger than many people seem to think, which is just one of the problems with range nerf proposals.


But, you know, let's not read the thread before posting or anything.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Fanatic Row
Neo T.E.C.H.
#36 - 2013-01-15 21:47:16 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
FourierTransformer wrote:
Yes only CFC, HBC, Solar, etc. have any right to discuss jump drives. Never mind that everyone from WH to NPC 0.0 uses carriers and JF's all the damn time.

Tell me more about WH corps using jump drives.
Hint: WHs with enough mass to allow capitals, usually don't exit in hi-sec Blink
Cid Tazer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2013-01-15 21:48:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Cid Tazer
Here's an alternate non-original but composite set of thoughts:
-> Add a 5 min (just a for instance, may be too long/short) post jump timer for the jump drive to cooldown etc. This is just to increase the amount of time a cap fleet is at midpoints which could lead to ambushes/conflict.
-> Add a 30 second post jump lock delay from cyno/titan bridging. Some kind of lore reason but to minimize hot drop o'clock from non black ops ships. If you want to hot drop o'clock, I think blops fleets are more appropriate than Abaddons for instance.
-> Greatly increase the range of a Covert Ops Portal. Allow immediate locking.
-> Slightly shrink the range of a titan bridge (Jump Portal).

I know that I enjoy using titan bridges (thank you titan pilots for those) but the fact that you can bridge longer from a titan than a covert ops cyno can bridge seems backwards to me since black ops are supposed to be able to strike deep into enemy territory.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-01-15 21:49:10 UTC
The ignorance of OPs post is astounding. "Everyone in 0.0 belongs to one of four major coalitions."
No, they do not. There are many corporations and small alliances, some of which have already been listed, some of which have not, like aperture harmonics, gang bang, hun reloaded, the g0dfathers, who use capitals on a VERY regular basis, who would stand to suffer from the changes you propose.

While original blog post you (the OP) are complaining about is indeed flaw, your post is even more so biased and flawed.

You claim that a JDC nerf would hurt major alliances, which in some respect it would but they are the best equipped to compensate, find new methods to deal with the problem, etc. However, when confronted with the issue of how your proposed nerf would stifle development of new alliances, power blocks, WH dwellers, and other people just trying to move some capital ships around, your only response is that they do not exist ("Everyone is part of one of the 4 major blocks")

Thanks, but I'd rather not live in your proposed eve.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-01-15 21:50:08 UTC
Fanatic Row wrote:
Andski wrote:
iskflakes wrote:
A cyno mass limit is the right choice because it doesn't hurt individual pilots. Want to move a capital? No problem. Want to supply nullsec with a couple of jump freighters at the same time? No problem. Want to drop a few dreads or triage carriers into a fight? No problem. Want to move 350 supercapitals to the other side of the map within 5 minutes? Nope.jpg. Super blobs should have to be deployed long in advance of their usage. If you want to drop in unannounced to a fight, then do it with 5-10 supers, not 350.


"I want to be able to stomp people without risk of interference from PL"
"I want to play EVE without billion ISK ships CCP can't get to scale at all; ruining it en masse"

"I've never even been in nullsec but I have an opinion on supercaps anyway!"

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2013-01-15 21:51:55 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Cid Tazer wrote:
Here's an alternate non-original but composite set of thoughts:
-> Add a 5 min (just a for instance, may be too long/short) post jump timer for the jump drive to cooldown etc. This is just to increase the amount of time a cap fleet is at midpoints which could lead to ambushes/conflict.
-> Greatly increase the range of a Covert Ops Portal. Allow immediate locking.

I think these two are reasonable, but not the others.
Nobody hotdrops with Abaddons, by the way. It's usually battlecruisers, typically Hurricanes.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)