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Skill reallocation Option needs to finally be added and why
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Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#281 - 2013-01-15 19:38:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
cytheras wrath wrote:


i pay ccp 15$ a month, i lose ships, thus do i pay monthly to lose? or Pay 2 Lose?


...? Losing a ship is not losing the game in Eve, necessarily.
What do you use them for? Do you help your fleet win more often, even if you lose the ship? If so, you won.
Or even if you lost your ship doing something stupid and fruitless, if your $15 made it so that you can quickly replace that ship instead of having to grind for 10 hours to earn it back, then you've also won in terms of your time.

Anyway, it doesn't matter either way. "Pay 2 Win" means you CAN pay to increase your chances of winning. It does not have to guarantee that you will win no matter how dumb you are.

Again, if a guarantee was necessary to invoke the term, then it would be a useless term. Nobody would EVER be able to call something "pay 2 win" because theres always a chance that a tiger will get loose from the zoo and kill you in between you paying $15 and actually redeeming it in game. Nothing in life is guaranteed...

Quote:
By using my own "improbable" set of events:
Bob grinds up 800,000,000 ISK. Clearly enough to buy a PLEX, as pricing usually goes.
Bob bumps his head in real life, and forgets the time he spent grinding up that ISK. To his memory, he never went through that effort at all.
Bob logs in, and sees he has all this ISK!

How is Bob different than someone else who just sold a PLEX for 800,000,000?
From game terms, there is NO difference.


Um... the difference is that his bank account is larger than the guy who paid for the PLEX. This will matter to him when he goes to buy something someday and figures out that he is $15 short...

You guys are really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. Apparently, people's desires to make themselves feel good about paying for isk are extremely motivating in terms of coming up with bullshit arguments

Ahem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
Mag's
Azn Empire
#282 - 2013-01-15 19:44:20 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Apparently, people's desires to make themselves feel good about paying for isk are extremely motivating in terms of coming up with bullshit arguments

Ahem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
POT
KETTLE
BLACK

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#283 - 2013-01-15 19:50:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
Quote:
POT
KETTLE
BLACK

No, because I routinely pay $$$ for isk (via PLEX). I am arguing against my own comfortable lie. Perhaps in some parts of my life that matter more, I do adhere to confirmation biases (politics, relationships) now and then, but personally, I don't find it worth it to lie to myself for something as trivial as a video game.




Also, according to you guys' bizarre logic, poker would NOT be a pay to win game, because it's technically possible (as long as you have enough of a buy-in for the blinds), to amass as many chips in-game as anybody else, even if they bought in for more.

Have you ever played poker? I can assure you that it is NOT the case that this means everybody is on equal footing. If you are allowed to buy in with 5x as many chips as everybody else, then you will mop the floor with them if you have about equal skills. That's why in poker competitions, everybody is forced to start with the same amount...

It is a blatant and obvious example of a pay 2 win game, yet if you all stay consistent in your arguments, you would be obligated to say that it is not.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#284 - 2013-01-15 19:54:00 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Quote:
POT
KETTLE
BLACK

No, because I routinely pay $$$ for isk (via PLEX). I am arguing against my own comfortable lie. Perhaps in some parts of my life that matter more, I do adhere to confirmation biases (politics, relationships) now and then, but personally, I don't find it worth it to lie to myself for something as trivial as a video game.
Please point to where I lied. Either to you, or myself.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#285 - 2013-01-15 19:54:15 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:


You see SP is actually kept track of in very specific numbers 2,673,746,432,598,459 For example. If you remap you still have EXACTLY 2,673,746,432,598,459 SP.


You sir are missing the point.

And im impressed how you learned to write with that mental capacity. It was undoubtedly a huge effort on your part.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#286 - 2013-01-15 19:56:09 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Quote:
POT
KETTLE
BLACK

No, because I routinely pay $$$ for isk (via PLEX). I am arguing against my own comfortable lie. Perhaps in some parts of my life that matter more, I do adhere to confirmation biases (politics, relationships) now and then, but personally, I don't find it worth it to lie to myself for something as trivial as a video game.

And you are still ducking the FACT that CCP is not selling you ISK.

They are selling you ONLY an item that can be redeemed for game time.

You, in turn, are taking it into the game, and looking to find a player willing to buy it from you.

You should consider reporting this player, as they are offering you ISK that you did not earn, in exchange for an item you purchased with real world money.

Confessing your ebil ways, tsk tsk....

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#287 - 2013-01-15 20:12:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Mag's wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Those also have to do with Vastly different subjects, and having issues learning the skill system has nothing to do with being able to compete with anyone. You are trying to twist something which isn't even remotely related into something which is entirely different then intended.
Oh they are completely relevant.

New players CAN compete right now with the skill system. This idea REMOVES that option, by turning the skill system into a catch up one. This idea favours the old, screws the new.

You completely missed the point and made mine, as I suspected you would. Thanks.

Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
You didn't post the rest of that sentence. I said I would agree that Plex isnt a pay to win Item IF And then I proceed to list several requirements for it not to be one. which adhere to the DEFINITION of Pay to win, and by DEFINITION a Plex is in fact Pay2win. Whether you believe it is or not is Irrelevant. It is what it is.

Again you are attempting to twist words and deceive others by intentionally leaving out statements which disprove your points and make others reading it change their view through lies and deceit to suit your needs and goals. Save that kind of stuff for in game.

This forum is for solving issues, not growing your evil empire of syncophants.
The rest of the sentence is irrelevant, simply because it DOES NOT fit the meaning of what Pay2Win is. If you were correct, the following request, wouldn't be a problem for you to answer. Although you could avoid it, yet again.

Point me to ANY item in game a Plex can get you, that you cannot get by normal game play.

This is a forum, for suggesting improvements, ideas and features to the game. When you post an idea, you are meant to argue the points raised against it with facts. This doesn't mean creating spurious scenarios, in a vain attempt to prove your theory. As we have seen, similar ones can prove the exact opposite.

Take for example, our assertion that you idea would remove the need for attributes.
Your idea means I simply train Titans for the rest of my Eve career and apply SP when the remap arrives. No need to think about attributes, no need to ever remap them. This means attributes are made irrelevant and their need removed. Simply make 2 called training points and rename them Primary and Secondary.

Please explain WHY, I would need anything other than those two and only 2 sets of points. Following your guide lines for remaps.

I await some spurious scenario.

Also, someone being right and having others agree, doesn't make them sycophants. Blink


It is your opinion that it favors the old. But the old really have no use for it except to fix mistakes they made while training in the past, as most of us old players are cross trained into every race. So no the bennifit fit to us is only one of convenience.

However as Ive stated before the bennefit to a new player is very large, being able to fix a mistake in your training when you have very little SP effects you a lot more then when you have 100 million.

an SP remap might be the difference on whether a new player can fly his ship or not and have fun. An older player will simply fly something else in the mean time or remap to something they desire.

it is a Neccessity for younger players, and a luxurey for older ones.
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#288 - 2013-01-15 20:15:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
Mag's wrote:
]Please point to where I lied. Either to you, or myself.

Anybody who is arguing that PLEX are not "pay 2 win" is probably doing so in order to convince themselves that when they buy PLEX for isk, they are not gaining any unfair advantage.

I can't say for certain that's the motivation of everybody here, but it is the only reason I can think of for being so illogical, and it is probably the motivation of at least some of the people arguing that.

Quote:
And you are still ducking the FACT that CCP is not selling you ISK.

So then you agree about the equally "valid" FACT that when I point a rifle at a guy and pull the trigger, I am not murdering him? Because at no point in time does my finger actually end his life?

After all, according to you, if there are any steps at all in between action X and eventual consequence Y, they must not actually be causally related.



or the "FACT" that when I rob a bank, the teller is the one actually committing the crime, because he's the one that actually voluntarily gave away the bank's sack of money? Me wearing a ski mask and brandishing a handgun doesn't count, because ZOMG there are steps in between those two things happening! So they CAN'T be causally related.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#289 - 2013-01-15 20:18:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Quote:
POT
KETTLE
BLACK

No, because I routinely pay $$$ for isk (via PLEX). I am arguing against my own comfortable lie. Perhaps in some parts of my life that matter more, I do adhere to confirmation biases (politics, relationships) now and then, but personally, I don't find it worth it to lie to myself for something as trivial as a video game.

And you are still ducking the FACT that CCP is not selling you ISK.

They are selling you ONLY an item that can be redeemed for game time.

You, in turn, are taking it into the game, and looking to find a player willing to buy it from you.

You should consider reporting this player, as they are offering you ISK that you did not earn, in exchange for an item you purchased with real world money.

Confessing your ebil ways, tsk tsk....


Actually CCP is indirectly selling you ISK, because that is what most people buy plexes from CCP to do, Attain some form of In game Currency.

Directly or Indirectly, CCP is still basically Selling ISK.

And so you know I was part of the debate when Plexes were first introduced, CCP basically stated that they were Selling Plex instead of ISK to minimize Inflation but that the goal was to give players a way to buy ISK and the option for Free game time Simultaneously.

it was done to increase population and retain players. As well as Discourage "Extrernal" 3rd party RMT trade within the game.

Just like the atributes remap

And just like this Skill Remap will be when its put in.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#290 - 2013-01-15 20:32:22 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:


You see SP is actually kept track of in very specific numbers 2,673,746,432,598,459 For example. If you remap you still have EXACTLY 2,673,746,432,598,459 SP.


You sir are missing the point.

And im impressed how you learned to write with that mental capacity. It was undoubtedly a huge effort on your part.


THANKS :D

I won first place in the special Olympics :D All I had to do was stand in one spot! It was easy!
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#291 - 2013-01-15 20:35:41 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Quote:
And you are still ducking the FACT that CCP is not selling you ISK.

So then you agree about the equally "valid" FACT that when I point a rifle at a guy and pull the trigger, I am not murdering him? Because at no point in time does my finger actually end his life?

After all, according to you, if there are any steps at all in between action X and eventual consequence Y, they must not actually be causally related.



or the "FACT" that when I rob a bank, the teller is the one actually committing the crime, because he's the one that actually voluntarily gave away the bank's sack of money? Me wearing a ski mask and brandishing a handgun doesn't count, because ZOMG there are steps in between those two things happening! So they CAN'T be causally related.

Really, your analogy fails regarding consistency with what you are comparing it to.

CCP sells you a PLEX.

Proper analogy: You buy a rifle with ammunition.

You enter the game, and locate a player to sell the PLEX to.

You shoot someone with the rifle.

Now, your analogy, even corrected, allows you to do other things.
You could have used the PLEX for yourself, analogy of going hunting for food.
You could have donated the PLEX to a player who needed it, analogy of standing guard over someone.

CCP never intended to do anything but sell game time. You pulled the trigger on subsequent events of your own free will.

Casual relationships fail when the free will of one individual has discretion beyond the control of the first.
Does a gun manufacturer envision homicidal maniacs using their hardware, or responsible people?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#292 - 2013-01-15 20:40:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Quote:
And you are still ducking the FACT that CCP is not selling you ISK.

So then you agree about the equally "valid" FACT that when I point a rifle at a guy and pull the trigger, I am not murdering him? Because at no point in time does my finger actually end his life?

After all, according to you, if there are any steps at all in between action X and eventual consequence Y, they must not actually be causally related.



or the "FACT" that when I rob a bank, the teller is the one actually committing the crime, because he's the one that actually voluntarily gave away the bank's sack of money? Me wearing a ski mask and brandishing a handgun doesn't count, because ZOMG there are steps in between those two things happening! So they CAN'T be causally related.

Really, your analogy fails regarding consistency with what you are comparing it to.

CCP sells you a PLEX.

Proper analogy: You buy a rifle with ammunition.

You enter the game, and locate a player to sell the PLEX to.

You shoot someone with the rifle.

Now, your analogy, even corrected, allows you to do other things.
You could have used the PLEX for yourself, analogy of going hunting for food.
You could have donated the PLEX to a player who needed it, analogy of standing guard over someone.

CCP never intended to do anything but sell game time. You pulled the trigger on subsequent events of your own free will.

Casual relationships fail when the free will of one individual has discretion beyond the control of the first.
Does a gun manufacturer envision homicidal maniacs using their hardware, or responsible people?


Actually your anologu is incorrect.

it would be:

You buy a rifle with amunition = You buy a plex from CCP

You go find someone to shoot = You look for a buyer on the market

You Shoot the person = You sell your plex

You get time in Prison for Murder = You get ISK

Play2Win

If CCP did not intend you to sell your plex for ISK or Aur they would not allow it or have put it in game soley for that purpose.

As the only items you can exchange a plex for in game are : ISK and Aur

So when you buy a Plex from CCP you are doing it to:

A. Get ISK
B. Get Aur

You would not Buy a Plex from CCP to sub your own account as a plex cost the same as the Sub. Youd just buy the Sub.

There offers for passes and face changes fro Plex, are for those people in game that Buy the plex from other players for ISK, So there system is Curcular, Players with cash can buy ISK, and players with ISK can buy account Services.

Anyway you slice it, it is a pay to win system.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2013-01-15 20:47:24 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Oh yes, many many skills are USELESS, if you "never" USE THEM., so why not put those unused skillpoints into something more usefull foir you as a player?

Because decisions should have consequences.


Yep, CCP's decisions regarding liberal usage of the nerfbat clearly has consequences on you... if you're a non-vet who doesn't have all 4 races trained.Cool
Sidus Rado
Sidus Rado Tax Free Corporation
#294 - 2013-01-15 20:48:49 UTC
1 plex for skill relocation is great idea. Game is more becoming character training game, rather than actually enjoy gameplay.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#295 - 2013-01-15 20:52:11 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Really, your analogy fails regarding consistency with what you are comparing it to.

CCP sells you a PLEX.

Proper analogy: You buy a rifle with ammunition.

You enter the game, and locate a player to sell the PLEX to.

You shoot someone with the rifle.

Now, your analogy, even corrected, allows you to do other things.
You could have used the PLEX for yourself, analogy of going hunting for food.
You could have donated the PLEX to a player who needed it, analogy of standing guard over someone.

CCP never intended to do anything but sell game time. You pulled the trigger on subsequent events of your own free will.

Casual relationships fail when the free will of one individual has discretion beyond the control of the first.
Does a gun manufacturer envision homicidal maniacs using their hardware, or responsible people?


Actually your anologu is incorrect.

it would be:

You buy a rifle with amunition = You buy a plex from CCP

You go find someone to shoot = You look for a buyer on the market

You Shoot the person = You sell your plex

You get time in Prison for Murder = You get ISK

Play2Win

If CCP did not intend you to sell your plex for ISK or Aur they would not allow it or have put it in game soley for that purpose.

As the only items you can exchange a plex for in game are : ISK and Aur

So when you buy a Plex from CCP you are doing it to:

A. Get ISK
B. Get Aur

You would not Buy a Plex from CCP to sub your own account as a plex cost the same as the Sub. Youd just buy the Sub.

There offers for passes and face changes fro Plex, are for those people in game that Buy the plex from other players for ISK, So there system is Curcular, Players with cash can buy ISK, and players with ISK can buy account Services.

Anyway you slice it, it is a pay to win system.

Now, there is where your analogy loses context as well.

The presumption of harm, as it would be possible in specific real world events.

I never specified lethal bullets, or a weapon capable of killing. Paint ball style conflict or other non lethal expressions come to mind more readily, as I simply don't jump to a worst possible conclusion automatically.

The assumption that anything purchased outside the game that can be used inside the game being bad, is another such assumption.
The fact that a rifle of one type is dangerous, does not make all rifles dangerous.
The same can be said for MMO items sold for real world currency.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#296 - 2013-01-15 20:52:25 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

Actually your anologu is incorrect.

it would be:

You buy a rifle with amunition = You buy a plex from CCP

You go find someone to shoot = You look for a buyer on the market

You Shoot the person = You sell your plex

You get time in Prison for Murder = You get ISK

Play2Win

Yup. Although the original analogy was ALSO just fine to begin with, and he was being dodgy by not even addressing it at all. One is an analogy to the multi-step fundtionings of a rifle mechanism. The other is an economic analogy to buying a rifle, etc. They are both appropriate (simply apply at different timescales), and both of them explain why this is play 2 win.

Quote:
If CCP did not intend you to sell your plex for ISK or Aur they would not allow it or have put it in game soley for that purpose.

As the only items you can exchange a plex for in game are : ISK and Aur

This is not strictly true. You can exchange a PLEX for game time.

However, you would be a complete idiot if you did so, since a single PLEX costs like $17 bucks or something, and a single month's direct subscription costs like $12. You would be throwing away $5 for no reason.

So yes, anybody who is not brain dead is exchanging their PLEX they bought for either isk or aur, at least.
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#297 - 2013-01-15 20:54:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
Quote:
Paint ball style conflict or other non lethal expressions come to mind more readily


*Eye roll* Seriously?

Okay, so then simply replace the very last bullet point:
"You get time in Prison for Murder = You get ISK"
with
"You eliminate an opposing player in your paintball game = You get ISK"


That changes nothing.
Anyway, I don't think you understand how analogies work, honestly, and it's time for me to get lunch and do some real work...
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#298 - 2013-01-15 20:55:34 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

Actually your anologu is incorrect.

it would be:

You buy a rifle with amunition = You buy a plex from CCP

You go find someone to shoot = You look for a buyer on the market

You Shoot the person = You sell your plex

You get time in Prison for Murder = You get ISK

Play2Win

Yup. Although the original analogy was ALSO just fine to begin with, and he was being dodgy by not even addressing it at all. One is an analogy to the multi-step fundtionings of a rifle mechanism. The other is an economic analogy to buying a rifle, etc. They are both appropriate (simply apply at different timescales), and both of them explain why this is play 2 win.

Quote:
If CCP did not intend you to sell your plex for ISK or Aur they would not allow it or have put it in game soley for that purpose.

As the only items you can exchange a plex for in game are : ISK and Aur

This is not strictly true. You can exchange a PLEX for game time.

However, you would be a complete idiot if you did so, since a single PLEX costs like $17 bucks or something, and a single month's direct subscription costs like $12. You would be throwing away $5 for no reason.

So yes, anybody who is not brain dead is exchanging their PLEX they bought for either isk or aur, at least.


My mistake, I don't buy plex, so I assumed since its worth the same amount of game time as a sub they would be similarly priced, in order to avoid people simply buy plex instead of recurring subs, but then again maybe that's why as you stated a plex is more expensive then a Sub.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#299 - 2013-01-15 20:55:39 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
This is not strictly true. You can exchange a PLEX for game time.

However, you would be a complete idiot if you did so, since a single PLEX costs like $17 bucks or something, and a single month's direct subscription costs like $12. You would be throwing away $5 for no reason.

So yes, anybody who is not brain dead is exchanging their PLEX they bought for either isk or aur, at least.

And yet ultimately, the point of PLEX IS to be converted into game time, regardless of how often it changes hands.

If you had a coupon for a free cheeseburger, does it ever become worth more than a cheeseburger?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#300 - 2013-01-15 20:57:13 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

So yes, anybody who is not brain dead is exchanging their PLEX they bought for either isk or aur, at least.
And yet ultimately, the point of PLEX IS to be converted into game time, regardless of how often it changes hands.

If you had a coupon for a free cheeseburger, does it ever become worth more than a cheeseburger?


No, it never does. But if I bought that coupon from somebody for a nickel, I would be effectively paying a nickel for a cheeseburger (Pay 2 Win)