Player Features and Ideas Discussion

And one more time

Yes you do magically gain SP, because you can just train skills that are currently training faster since you are mapped to them and then respec to skills like drones that have a weird attribute distribution that you probably wont ever use.

Example for the really stupid (neatly formatted for easier reading):
Training all drone skills is 12.500.000,00 skill points. Since you will never use memory/perception, the most ****** remap for anything else, you will probably train them with your perception/willpower remap.

With mem/per - 2250sp per hour, finishing drone skills in 213d 9h
with per/wp - 1830sp per hour, finishing drone skills in 284d 12h

If they actually accept and implement your incredibly stupid "idea" you can just train any per/wp skill you dont plan to use (dreads for example) with 2250sp per hour and remap those sp to your drones, effectively magically creating sp out of thin air and finishing your training of drone skills 71d 3h faster. Or to translate that into sp gaining 3.200.000 sp you should not have.

If you still dont understand how this is ruining remaps and getting you free sp i really dont know how to help you anymore, you are just too dumb.

And if you still cant see how implementing a mechanic that gives you sp for plex is pay to win i doubt anyone can help you. And no, its not the same as traiding character on the bazaar with plex and the reason are obvious but since i doubt you will get them let me explain one more time in detail:

You go to the store to buy and apple. There are 10 apples in the store, you pick the one you like, give the cashier one dollar and she gives you the apple. There are still 10 apples in the store and one dollar switched hands. The all important apple balance is the same.
Or
You go to the store, pick an apple you like, and cashier creates exact copy out of thin air. There are now 11 apples in the store and one dollar switched hands.

Get it?

I particularly enjoyed how he missed the obvious logic equation he created.

Pay2Win, in order to actually be an issue, has to be unfair and or unbalancing to the game. It can be unethical otherwise perhaps.
In this case, the proof of it's presence failed to be demonstrated.

All he ended up demonstrating, is that if you have enough ISK to buy a PLEX, you are potentially a Pay2Win.

By using my own "improbable" set of events:
Bob grinds up 800,000,000 ISK. Clearly enough to buy a PLEX, as pricing usually goes.
Bob bumps his head in real life, and forgets the time he spent grinding up that ISK. To his memory, he never went through that effort at all.
Bob logs in, and sees he has all this ISK!

How is Bob different than someone else who just sold a PLEX for 800,000,000?
From game terms, there is NO difference.
From player perspective even, they suddenly have all this ISK they did not have before.

So by the attempted equivalency effort we listened to, having enough ISK to buy a PLEX also equals pay to win, as it gives EXACTLY THE SAME BENEFIT.
This extends mathematically to having enough ISK to buy multiple PLEX as well.
Do not doubt that we have players with insane amounts of in game wealth.

Actually, as has been stated previously, Newbies are really at a better advantage then vets because they mess up more and have no idea what to train when they first start the game this allows them to fix their mistakes.

It does not effect vets because vets are generally cross trained anyway in many things. However they have the option to respec if they want, wont really make a difference except in the fact that they can focus their SP more.

You all have yet to list a Valid reason (Logical or technical) this "Does" break the game. Because none of the ones on here are either, they are simply "opinions" of why it would make it inconvenient for them. Or unfounded fears.

Especially since this remap is "LIMITED" to once a year. You can't spam remaps, you can't change whenever the hell you want, and you still have to live with your choices and their consequences.

This remap changes nothing in game except allowing people the opportunity to reallocate skillpoints they don't use into something they do. ONCE a year.

Maybe I want to try Industry after PvPing for 5 years, Maybe I am bored of Mining after 2 and want to PvP. But pvp corps wont take me because I don't have the skills to fly pvp ships. Boom I reallocate my skills get in a pvp corp and start learning to PvP. etc

It allows the player an actual Choice, Instead of forcing them to do something they no longer have fun doing. And EVE is supposed to be all about "Choice" and Opportunity, and Risk. Remaping your skills is a risk, if you mess up your screwed for an entire year. (instead of your entire EvE career). Which lowers the learning Curve and allows more players to Join the Eve community and remain.

I've talked to a lot fo people about Eve on Line and the complaint I always get is a simple one - EvE takes too long to learn the basics of, The Skill system is too unforgiving and complicated, and the Learning Curve for new players is too high.

This system WILL fix some of that, by allowing a more forgiving Skill mechanism which allows people to try things out before they decide. Which the current system does not, you put skills in something they are their permanently.

(Which permanent skills which can never be changed also makes absolutely no sense RP wise in this game, or even story wise, your a damn Cyborg you can upload and download information, I can change something on my computer if I want, why not Skills on a Character? It's the same concept).

Forcing people to do things they do not enjoy because of a limitation in the skill system loses Subs. I'm bored of mining but don't want to spend weeks and months training PvP so I quit Eve. Or I'm burned out on PvP and want to go have some fun sitting relaxing in Highsec mining, But I can't because I'd have to train for weeks and months to be able to.

The ability to remap your skills ensures that players now have an option to change to something they want to try, or like for whatever reason.

1. If you have 10 million SP, and you Reallocate 10 Million SP You still have ... OH WOW 10,000,000 SP. (10 mil)

No Magical Additions of SP.

2. Like all things dealing with the Skill System, you must pause or stop any training before you remap. (This is common sense also, and why I didn't list it)

You see SP is actually kept track of in very specific numbers 2,673,746,432,598,459 For example. If you remap you still have EXACTLY 2,673,746,432,598,459 SP.

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On another Note as I've stated before this system is already in game, However currently the Devs have to activate it onyour account to allow it (And they only do this when they edit or remove skills such as the Learning skills).

Guess what? People reallocate SP as high as 20 million at a time sometimes. Does it Break the game? Hasn't yet.

I am simply sugestiong this system WHICH IS ALREADY IN EVE, be made optional, rather then Dev initiated.

Which is the Hilarious thing about those of you who are against this system being put in game, ITS ALREADY THERE! And has been for Years and Years and Years.

All I am doing is saying allow the player to activate it and make use of it, rather then it Requiring a Dev to activate on the players account.

The flaw in this is simply that his consequence wasn't a Consequence of "his Actions", but those of "CCP". A player should never have to suffer because CCP decides to remove something from game or seriously change the way it works enough to make your playstyle ineffective after years of training without provideing sufficient compensation (IE a skill remap). It is the reason they Refund Skill Points and use this Skill remap System every so often for "Certain skills" (Such as the learning skills they removed).



The consequence and actions CCP talks about deal specifically with PLAYER decisions IN GAME. Such as wardecing you, Or Kill a carebear, It has absolutely 0 to do with what CCP decides to change in the game. As CCP is an External Force which mods the game and changes it, and has Nothing to do with the players choices.

CCP keeps their involvement in game to a minimum, and currently present the attitude of "nonchalant". So to speak about issues their patches and Nerfs cause for players when combined with the unforgiving Skill system. This would be FINE, IF there was a way for the player to take his own destiny into his hands and fix his Skill tree so to speak. However currently their is no way for the player to do this as an "Official" option.

Why is it Irrelevant? because it proves the system needs to be in game? And you don't want it in game? All Evidence is relevant. Bad or Good.

It is what it is. And since it is ALREADY IN GAME, Obviously it is not "GAME BREAKING" If it was added in the capacity I am suggesting, I bet you wouldn't even notice it. Just like you do not notice the Attribute remap. Which everyone pitched the same damn fit about and made the same "It'll be game breaking" arguments against.

Also Adapting, like consequences and decisions, Means Adapting to IN GAME, "player created", Situations.

NOT adapt to CCPs external interference. It's why they mandated no Dev could be the leader of a corp or Alliance after the BOB incident.

Your not an older player so I'll go over something you may not know.


* When I first made "this character" (I think it was this one, may have been Cel), You were required to choose your attributes when you made your character, hence your argument about permanent decisions is indeed effected by the attribute remap being added. As back then when you chose your attributes they were permanent and unchangeable, you were stuck with them.

Before the attribute remap was added you were required to LIVE with your attribute choices, which crippled you in many many ways, just like choosing to train the wrong skill can cripple you in many many ways.

It is the reason I suggested The attribute remap back then, (I also suggested this back then but there wasn't really enough data for the devs to make a decision on it).

* So you see, the attribute remap, was exactly the same as the skills are now at one point in time. Allowing players to edit them boosted the population because it made it easier for new people to learn the game and what they specifically did without (too harsh) of a consequence if they fapped up. It allowed vets who had been living with Fapped up Attributes for the last 3-5 years to finally edit them and fix mistakes that had been plaguing them for years.

It is now an integral part of the game. And everyone takes it for granted.
The Skill Remap will be the exact same, 5 years from now when everyone takes it for granted.

The arguments you apply here could be and were in fact used to fight the suggestion of the attribute remap. However then like now there was a need for change, and that change had a positive effect on EvE as a whole, just as this will. Even though people fought tooth and nail to get it rejected.

Skill remap is a lot different than attribute remap....

Attribute remap allows you to train future skills at a faster rate...

Skill remap allows you to apply already trained skillpionts to a new skill, regardless of previous choices that altered the SP accumulation rate.

This would actually hurt new players very much. A new player has to train support skills, ship skills, weapon skills, S&I skills, etc... all of which have different attributes, meaning it's impossible to be remapped to train everything optimally. An older character that has the main supports down just trains on a single attribute tree... (like precep-will), and then every year free's up a ton of SP (that was optimally trained) and applies them to leadership skills, or trade skills, or anything they want... Furthermore, if they can hold onto those skillpoints (and don't need to instantly reallocate), they can insta-train into the newest FOTM instantly with every patch... 10-15m SP is enough to instantly max the skills that matter for almost any ship.

The only way I'd allow free regular SP redistribution is if every character had a skillpoint LIMIT... something like 40m max SP on a character.... Then there is a drawback to respecing to Minmatar, as you can no longer fly some other ship class. I highly doubt CCP would do this though!

At what point does change become described as game breaking?

Your idea effectively creates a skill bank.

At this bank, every year, you can exchange any skills for any other skills. Obviously you would require prerequisites to still be met, etc.

Assuming players are always happy about the changes they make, (IE no screwups or claims that their account was hacked and retrained to become useless), no past investments of skill points has any meaning.

You even find it would become practical to train your optimal skills for just banking the points, so you could remap them next year into something that held more current value.

One year everyone would fly drakes, the next tengus, after that who knows, maybe we will get into racing interceptors.
Everyone will fly the optimal ship of the moment.
Everyone will have maxxed out skills for their weapons currently used.

Nope, nothing game breaking here.

Oh they are completely relevant.

New players CAN compete right now with the skill system. This idea REMOVES that option, by turning the skill system into a catch up one. This idea favours the old, screws the new.

You completely missed the point and made mine, as I suspected you would. Thanks.

The rest of the sentence is irrelevant, simply because it DOES NOT fit the meaning of what Pay2Win is. If you were correct, the following request, wouldn't be a problem for you to answer. Although you could avoid it, yet again.

Point me to ANY item in game a Plex can get you, that you cannot get by normal game play.

This is a forum, for suggesting improvements, ideas and features to the game. When you post an idea, you are meant to argue the points raised against it with facts. This doesn't mean creating spurious scenarios, in a vain attempt to prove your theory. As we have seen, similar ones can prove the exact opposite.

Take for example, our assertion that you idea would remove the need for attributes.
Your idea means I simply train Titans for the rest of my Eve career and apply SP when the remap arrives. No need to think about attributes, no need to ever remap them. This means attributes are made irrelevant and their need removed. Simply make 2 called training points and rename them Primary and Secondary.

Please explain WHY, I would need anything other than those two and only 2 sets of points. Following your guide lines for remaps.

I await some spurious scenario.

Also, someone being right and having others agree, doesn't make them sycophants.