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SuperCapital and Force projection is way too easy in EvE
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Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#201 - 2013-01-15 16:33:57 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

You guys keep ignoring the part where CCP WANTS US TO.

Why is this hard to accept? CCP wants us to be able to move 40 jumps easily, so we WILL go that far for a fight. It's like you guys are are ignoring this or pretending as if it's not intended.



Natsett, I agree with you for the most part in this thread until this. The part I can't accept or need rather, to call foul, is whenever I mention CCP has designed it "that way so it must be right" I get stripped and flayed by your alliance or other forum warriors. Now maybe my forum pvp isn't good enough to handle it, but I still think a stance needs to be taken.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression Goons were meant to show everything wrong with CCP and how they could make it better? I understand this could be in relation to other topics and facets, but when you talk about a game designer, it has to hold across the board. And I don't necessarily mean game mechanics, but game design (I'm sure you already know the other arguments from other topics, not trying to derail).

In short, I think there needs to be acceptance if CCP is right, or a drive if CCP is wrong. But using both for arguments sake leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I'm sure others will see this as homogenizing the argument instead of trying to improve things.

At any rate, keep up the good fight!

The only context of rigth or wrong that I have expressed in this thread is as it pertains to the use of Titans and cynos.

They are INTENDED to move large numbers of people quickly across the map.
They are NOT being used in a way that is unintentional. CCP created the mechanics, not us. They can't be used any other way then they are currently being used.

Things like spool up timers and not being able to jump with a titan within a shielded PoS are fine.
LIMITTING the ability for large numbers to move easily across the map is not.

I play a game.
Tedium in games is never fun.
No one likes shooting a structure. It's tedius and dull.

Excessive travel times are no better in an area of the game were large scale warfare is expected and encouraged.
They are here to facilitate the moving of large groups throughout null.


The fact that this is all they're used for is the problem, not that they get used. These giant, expensive ships, and you use them to jump other ships; that's silly.



Some people around here expect null sec to be just a larger, more player driven version of Low sec, and that's wrong.
Small holdings that want "good fights", more structure, less blobbing, and more "war", belong in low in sec.

If you can not grow your corp beyond a few dozen members, if you can not develop diplomatic ties with others, if you can not organize, or you simply do not want to be a member of a larger entity, you do not deserve space in null.

Deserve. Because this is all these threads boil down to.
Some peoples thinking they deserve to be able to gain and hold space in null.

They don't give a **** about titan bridges, they give a **** that a much larger group can build the titan and secure it to move fast enough across the map to take space from them.

Look at what is happening with IRC.
All I see are people crying about being "blobbed" out of null. Because they could only call up 3k people, the other guy could call up 30k, and some people have this stupid expectation that it's "not fair" that youc an bring more to the table then they can handle.



Some people here are not complaining that an "equivilent" force can use titans to get to the fight, they don't like that a larger one can.

They won't come out and say it though. They'll just keep on with the, "no, no, it's becuase it makes space to small.", "the lore!", "my nestalgia!".

OMG! more than one titan got built and it's not being used exactly like I saw in a trailer once and it's ruining my fond memories and feelings. GTFO.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#202 - 2013-01-15 16:37:45 UTC
Juan Andalusian wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Maybe because it helps to facilitate large scale warfare across the ******* map, without the tedious need to travel 50 jumps, or to build a hundre of the damn things.

The mechanics are working as intended, it's your expectations that are wrong.


Ridiculous notion, but your join date pretty much explains a lot.

Just to clue you in there used to be large scale warfare even in the early days. Guess what there were no titan bridges then.

People didn't have to do 50 jump to get large scale warfare either, for reasons such as:

1) They had enemies closer.

2) It was large scale warfare... you didn't undock from your HQ and travel to the enemies HQ every day, unless you are a ******. There are concepts known as preparation... logistics... bringing stuff to a staging system and operating from there.

"Mechanics working as intended" isn't the issue. It's the effect mechanics have on the game.





My join date is '05 smart guy.

This isn't my first character.

Try again.
Emuene
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#203 - 2013-01-15 16:39:16 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Juan Andalusian wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Maybe because it helps to facilitate large scale warfare across the ******* map, without the tedious need to travel 50 jumps, or to build a hundre of the damn things.

The mechanics are working as intended, it's your expectations that are wrong.


Ridiculous notion, but your join date pretty much explains a lot.

Just to clue you in there used to be large scale warfare even in the early days. Guess what there were no titan bridges then.

People didn't have to do 50 jump to get large scale warfare either, for reasons such as:

1) They had enemies closer.

2) It was large scale warfare... you didn't undock from your HQ and travel to the enemies HQ every day, unless you are a ******. There are concepts known as preparation... logistics... bringing stuff to a staging system and operating from there.

"Mechanics working as intended" isn't the issue. It's the effect mechanics have on the game.





My join date is '05 smart guy.

This isn't my first character.

Try again.

Would it be better I posted with this guy?
Fariic Aniumiin
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#204 - 2013-01-15 16:40:47 UTC
Emuene wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Juan Andalusian wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Maybe because it helps to facilitate large scale warfare across the ******* map, without the tedious need to travel 50 jumps, or to build a hundre of the damn things.

The mechanics are working as intended, it's your expectations that are wrong.


Ridiculous notion, but your join date pretty much explains a lot.

Just to clue you in there used to be large scale warfare even in the early days. Guess what there were no titan bridges then.

People didn't have to do 50 jump to get large scale warfare either, for reasons such as:

1) They had enemies closer.

2) It was large scale warfare... you didn't undock from your HQ and travel to the enemies HQ every day, unless you are a ******. There are concepts known as preparation... logistics... bringing stuff to a staging system and operating from there.

"Mechanics working as intended" isn't the issue. It's the effect mechanics have on the game.





My join date is '05 smart guy.

This isn't my first character.

Try again.

Would it be better I posted with this guy?

Or perhaps this guy, on a second account, almost 5 years old?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#205 - 2013-01-15 16:43:16 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Look at what is happening with IRC.
All I see are people crying about being "blobbed" out of null. Because they could only call up 3k people, the other guy could call up 30k, and some people have this stupid expectation that it's "not fair" that youc an bring more to the table then they can handle.

I haven't seen that at all. I thought they were handling it rather gracefully.
In fact they could have sent us a big **** you and forced us to grind away all of their structures but they've instead decided to start transferring the rest of it to us.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#206 - 2013-01-15 16:44:44 UTC
And no kidding.

Should I ask. Do some of you not know what it means to FACILITATE an act?


Like CCP developing a ship that would allow large forces to move quickly and easily across the map to FACILITATE large scale warfare.

Holy ****, kind of like it didn't exist at one point, and CCP decided to put it in to improve that aspect of the game.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#207 - 2013-01-15 16:45:23 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Look at what is happening with IRC.
All I see are people crying about being "blobbed" out of null. Because they could only call up 3k people, the other guy could call up 30k, and some people have this stupid expectation that it's "not fair" that youc an bring more to the table then they can handle.

I haven't seen that at all. I thought they were handling it rather gracefully.
In fact they could have sent us a big **** you and forced us to grind away all of their structures but they've instead decided to start transferring the rest of it to us.

Not really them, more the reactioin of others in regard to what's happening.

I didn't word very well that time.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#208 - 2013-01-15 16:49:25 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
You guys don't find that an armada of ships is able to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in fifteen minutes amazing and health for the game?

Fifteen minutes, lol.


I can get from stain to syndicate in 30 min with just me and cyno alts... So I dunno if you had et a all cyno alts setup same time you could do it in theory in that amount of time...

But if there a cool down time of like
10 min this could take over an hour...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#209 - 2013-01-15 16:52:05 UTC
fukier wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
You guys don't find that an armada of ships is able to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in fifteen minutes amazing and health for the game?

Fifteen minutes, lol.


I can get from stain to syndicate in 30 min with just me and cyno alts... So I dunno if you had et a all cyno alts setup same time you could do it in theory in that amount of time...

But if there a cool down time of like
10 min this could take over an hour...

Because waiting longer to do stuff is always more fun? wtf.

You guys really think that making hundreds of people sit around, even longer then they already do, just to get into the thick of things is "better".

I'm glad you guys aren't the devs. Your game would be ****.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#210 - 2013-01-15 16:53:47 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
fukier wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
You guys don't find that an armada of ships is able to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in fifteen minutes amazing and health for the game?

Fifteen minutes, lol.


I can get from stain to syndicate in 30 min with just me and cyno alts... So I dunno if you had et a all cyno alts setup same time you could do it in theory in that amount of time...

But if there a cool down time of like
10 min this could take over an hour...

10 minutes between what, exactly?
You have to be very careful in implementing the cooldown to make sure it doesn't hurt smaller alliances disproportionally more than large ones.

If you have 10 minute cooldown between uses of titan bridges or jump drives however, that only hurts alliances and coalitions that don't have titans placed enroute already. That's absolutely not a problem for an alliance like RAZOR or the coalition as a whole - we already do this fairly often.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#211 - 2013-01-15 17:06:15 UTC
How much of this is actually the fault of caps and supers versus the ease of wealth centralization through moon goo and such?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#212 - 2013-01-15 17:08:12 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

You guys keep ignoring the part where CCP WANTS US TO.

Why is this hard to accept? CCP wants us to be able to move 40 jumps easily, so we WILL go that far for a fight. It's like you guys are are ignoring this or pretending as if it's not intended.



Natsett, I agree with you for the most part in this thread until this. The part I can't accept or need rather, to call foul, is whenever I mention CCP has designed it "that way so it must be right" I get stripped and flayed by your alliance or other forum warriors. Now maybe my forum pvp isn't good enough to handle it, but I still think a stance needs to be taken.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression Goons were meant to show everything wrong with CCP and how they could make it better? I understand this could be in relation to other topics and facets, but when you talk about a game designer, it has to hold across the board. And I don't necessarily mean game mechanics, but game design (I'm sure you already know the other arguments from other topics, not trying to derail).

In short, I think there needs to be acceptance if CCP is right, or a drive if CCP is wrong. But using both for arguments sake leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I'm sure others will see this as homogenizing the argument instead of trying to improve things.

At any rate, keep up the good fight!

The only context of rigth or wrong that I have expressed in this thread is as it pertains to the use of Titans and cynos.

They are INTENDED to move large numbers of people quickly across the map.
They are NOT being used in a way that is unintentional. CCP created the mechanics, not us. They can't be used any other way then they are currently being used.

Things like spool up timers and not being able to jump with a titan within a shielded PoS are fine.
LIMITTING the ability for large numbers to move easily across the map is not.

I play a game.
Tedium in games is never fun.
No one likes shooting a structure. It's tedius and dull.

Excessive travel times are no better in an area of the game were large scale warfare is expected and encouraged.
They are here to facilitate the moving of large groups throughout null.


The fact that this is all they're used for is the problem, not that they get used. These giant, expensive ships, and you use them to jump other ships; that's silly.



Some people around here expect null sec to be just a larger, more player driven version of Low sec, and that's wrong.
Small holdings that want "good fights", more structure, less blobbing, and more "war", belong in low in sec.

If you can not grow your corp beyond a few dozen members, if you can not develop diplomatic ties with others, if you can not organize, or you simply do not want to be a member of a larger entity, you do not deserve space in null.

Deserve. Because this is all these threads boil down to.
Some peoples thinking they deserve to be able to gain and hold space in null.

They don't give a **** about titan bridges, they give a **** that a much larger group can build the titan and secure it to move fast enough across the map to take space from them.

Look at what is happening with IRC.
All I see are people crying about being "blobbed" out of null. Because they could only call up 3k people, the other guy could call up 30k, and some people have this stupid expectation that it's "not fair" that youc an bring more to the table then they can handle.



Some people here are not complaining that an "equivilent" force can use titans to get to the fight, they don't like that a larger one can.

They won't come out and say it though. They'll just keep on with the, "no, no, it's becuase it makes space to small.", "the lore!", "my nestalgia!".

OMG! more than one titan got built and it's not being used exactly like I saw in a trailer once and it's ruining my fond memories and feelings. GTFO.



Yea man I agree, I'm an advocate of "ccp made it therefore its working" since I'd rather adapt than reconstuct. Just seemed an odd stance to take in regards to arguing as opposed to building a community of information. Myself, I think politically what sov is about is failed since from a growth aspect the "turmoil" and "chaos" of null is now apparently shortlived since you get to a point where an empire is so large diplomacy becomes a matter of sharing spoils not playing Axis and Allies with spaceships anymore lol.

That would probably be my biggest advocate of nerfing the ability to bridge to begin with. I'd rather see growth on a smaller scale for new blood to be entered, and those gaps would be created by the inability to hold all the space because you wouldn't want to move 15-30 jumps for a borderland that meant nothing in the first place. The idea of a fringe system being encroached, then another, then another, then they get close enough for "you" (any coalition/sov holder) to push back and eject sounds more exciting than "X corp has their 326th tech moon, rejoice! and share 3 moons with this other corp" which is what the politics is now today.

But again, that's me =)

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#213 - 2013-01-15 17:10:20 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
How much of this is actually the fault of caps and supers versus the ease of wealth centralization through moon goo and such?

How much of what?

Working as intended?
Because that's all it is.


You people act like CCP are a bunch of morons who had no idea that people would use titan bridges to move across space.
When they developed them to do exactly that.



But we'll just keep ignoring the fact that people use them the way that CCP intended them to be used, because they developed the ******* things, and just pretend like they're use isn't as intended.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2013-01-15 17:14:46 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
fukier wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
You guys don't find that an armada of ships is able to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in fifteen minutes amazing and health for the game?

Fifteen minutes, lol.


I can get from stain to syndicate in 30 min with just me and cyno alts... So I dunno if you had et a all cyno alts setup same time you could do it in theory in that amount of time...

But if there a cool down time of like
10 min this could take over an hour...

Because waiting longer to do stuff is always more fun? wtf.

You guys really think that making hundreds of people sit around, even longer then they already do, just to get into the thick of things is "better".

I'm glad you guys aren't the devs. Your game would be ****.



but thats the thing you guys think you are entitled to get from one side of the cluster to the other with a snap of the finger and i understand that how the game mechanics work today that is true...

but on the other hand the only reason you think this should continue is because you have choosen not to fight your nieghbours but ally with them...

your fleet members would not have to wait if you just went to war with FA or SMA or Razor now would they?

I think its something that for the health of the game in the long run is really needed...

why should two groups even atempt to bring out thier small number of super caps to a fight if they know that if reported to PL or you guys that in less then a siege cycle they will be hot dropped?

how is that fun for people outside your respective coalitions...

and i know they could allways join up and become members but they should have the option and ability to not to have too...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#215 - 2013-01-15 17:18:09 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
NEONOVUS wrote:
How much of this is actually the fault of caps and supers versus the ease of wealth centralization through moon goo and such?

How much of what?

Working as intended?
Because that's all it is.


You people act like CCP are a bunch of morons who had no idea that people would use titan bridges to move across space.
When they developed them to do exactly that.



But we'll just keep ignoring the fact that people use them the way that CCP intended them to be used, because they developed the ******* things, and just pretend like they're use isn't as intended.

Sorry
I meant how much of the complaining is from mechanics that could have bee thought out better, and how much is from people having sufficient wealth that they are able to bring overwhelming force on anyone's head, basically getting a 99 first turn in race to 100.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#216 - 2013-01-15 17:18:15 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
You guys don't find that an armada of ships is able to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in fifteen minutes amazing and health for the game?

Fifteen minutes, lol.


I can get from stain to syndicate in 30 min with just me and cyno alts... So I dunno if you had et a all cyno alts setup same time you could do it in theory in that amount of time...

But if there a cool down time of like
10 min this could take over an hour...

10 minutes between what, exactly?
You have to be very careful in implementing the cooldown to make sure it doesn't hurt smaller alliances disproportionally more than large ones.

If you have 10 minute cooldown between uses of titan bridges or jump drives however, that only hurts alliances and coalitions that don't have titans placed enroute already. That's absolutely not a problem for an alliance like RAZOR or the coalition as a whole - we already do this fairly often.


i would say 10 min after your jump for the jump drive to reload with its fuel (but you could have a skill that reduces that time by 10% per lever make it a 12x multiplyer or somthing like that so it only ends up being 5-6 min depending on your fleets skills)

for me the epic wars are supposed to be more localised (like within a region) and you can usually get from on end to another end of a region in 1-2 jumps anyways... i dont think that all of eve cluster should be consitered your back door so to speak...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#217 - 2013-01-15 17:24:59 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
How much of this is actually the fault of caps and supers versus the ease of wealth centralization through moon goo and such?



good point if they made it harder to move so fast plus removed moon goo as a passive income and replaced with ring mining where its active i could see the major coalitions split up and go to war with each other and return to the localised wars from a few years ago vrs the central mega world wars we see today...

i mean why would you spend an hour traveling to defend space you dont live in and dont need if its not needed for passive income?

i think this is something that the devs in dominion tried to do but failed at any follow up... but it does not mean that the devs want only super coalitions to live forever simply because of the 18 month debacle with meant that sov was not reviseted...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#218 - 2013-01-15 17:25:26 UTC
A cool down on jump drives and titan-bridged ships pretty much ends all issues of force-projection. The rest are solved by making it costly to leave your home undefended while you road-trip around burning the homes of others, but you'll never fix that by tweaking jump drives etc.

Ten wasted pages discussing something with a clear and simple solution.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#219 - 2013-01-15 17:25:39 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
fukier wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
You guys don't find that an armada of ships is able to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in fifteen minutes amazing and health for the game?

Fifteen minutes, lol.


I can get from stain to syndicate in 30 min with just me and cyno alts... So I dunno if you had et a all cyno alts setup same time you could do it in theory in that amount of time...

But if there a cool down time of like
10 min this could take over an hour...

10 minutes between what, exactly?
You have to be very careful in implementing the cooldown to make sure it doesn't hurt smaller alliances disproportionally more than large ones.

If you have 10 minute cooldown between uses of titan bridges or jump drives however, that only hurts alliances and coalitions that don't have titans placed enroute already. That's absolutely not a problem for an alliance like RAZOR or the coalition as a whole - we already do this fairly often.


i would say 10 min after your jump for the jump drive to reload with its fuel (but you could have a skill that reduces that time by 10% per lever make it a 12x multiplyer or somthing like that so it only ends up being 5-6 min depending on your fleets skills)

for me the epic wars are supposed to be more localised (like within a region) and you can usually get from on end to another end of a region in 1-2 jumps anyways... i dont think that all of eve cluster should be consitered your back door so to speak...

It's not. Even for us it takes a large amount of organization and planning to move forces across the cluster.
It took a pretty significant effort to get our caps and supercaps into Cobalt Edge, which for subcaps is actually right next door to us, but 7 jumps at the very minimum for capitals (and around 15+ for titans).

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#220 - 2013-01-15 17:27:00 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
fukier wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
You guys don't find that an armada of ships is able to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in fifteen minutes amazing and health for the game?

Fifteen minutes, lol.


I can get from stain to syndicate in 30 min with just me and cyno alts... So I dunno if you had et a all cyno alts setup same time you could do it in theory in that amount of time...

But if there a cool down time of like
10 min this could take over an hour...

Because waiting longer to do stuff is always more fun? wtf.

You guys really think that making hundreds of people sit around, even longer then they already do, just to get into the thick of things is "better".

I'm glad you guys aren't the devs. Your game would be ****.



In a more long term approach, you'd be waiting shorter amount of time for fights, and more dynamically altered fights at that too, if you limited the amount of jumps and increased cooldown timers to make those jumps.

Or you'd be spreading out your population to cover all your area thinly. Think of it as Goons first building their empire. They didn't start with 40 caps and supercaps.

Not gonna say you need to start over, you built it, keep it.

But keep it in perspective too. Just because you made it work doesn't mean it should.

Goon=Kludger? (I kid ).

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.