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SuperCapital and Force projection is way too easy in EvE
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psycho freak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2013-01-15 06:53:18 UTC
Another wanabe game designer post

gtfo if you dont like way eve if fck off play something els whineing fags make me sick

nothing rong with titan bridgeing the way they are
all that rl money on sub all that skill time all the isk spent for bigest ship in game and only thing it good for is mobile bridge and ppl want it nurfed gfto

my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k

nop cant find it
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#182 - 2013-01-15 06:58:01 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
*snip*
the same logic should be applied to SoV, want to control half of null? sure, no problem., that'll be 45.8 quadrillion isk per month.

Suggested again and again...

Goonswarm Federation
Goonswarm Empire
Goonswarm Utilitarian Union...

Test Alliance Please Ignore
Alt Alliance Please Ignore...

This does nothing but making management a PITA.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Vince Snetterton
#183 - 2013-01-15 07:42:56 UTC
I would dearly love for CCP to give us another snapshot of the quantities of supercaps in the game.
The last one was late May, and I am more than a little curious to see how many exist in the game now.
pussnheels
Viziam
#184 - 2013-01-15 08:28:03 UTC
fukier wrote:
SuperCapital and Force projection is way too easy in EvE. As it stands you can hotdrop 40 Titians and 40 SC with a full subcap force with just one cyno.

My Proposal is to give mass limits on Cyno’s and Titan Jump Bridges to limit the ability to easily hot drop ship across the EVE Universe.

The idea is if you want to move more then 8 Titans or 10ish Super Carriers you will need to have more then one active Cyno.

A regular Cyno will now have a mass limit of around 20 billion kg.

Also if you want to Bridge your fleet you will need more then one Titan (Titan JB mass limit is independent from Cyno Mass limit)

Titan JB will now be a two way Worm Hole that has a mass limit of 10 billion kg which is ruff around 50ish battleships.

Hopefully if balanced correctly this will make it much harder to move mega fleets around and will allow for more flavor when doing fleet ops.

I am not sure if this should also include covert cynos this is up to debate.

Also an idea for cap ships is having an independent spool up time for Jump Drives that way you cant just use ET and cap rechargers to move cap fleets fast.

Also Now fow a titan to use its Bridge it needs to be sitting outside the pos shield.

TLDR:
Cyno now has a mass limit of 20 billion kg (just over 8 Titans or 10 super carriers)
Titan Jump Bridge now works as a two way Worm Hole that has a mass limit of 10 billion kg (about 50ish Battleships)
Jump Drives now have an independent spool up time to activate (time is 10 min with a new skill that can reduce to 5 min at lev V) Also if a titan wants to activate the Bridge it needs to be sitting outside the pos shield.

collecting 40 titans 40 superca^s and the support fleet is NOT easy,
It takes years to buildup a Alliance and coalition that can field a force like that , and the planning that involves operations like that take time to plan and some good forwward planning and coordination betwee,n the leadership
second point , it is easy to fly a capital ship , it takes about 3 months in total to train to fly a basic cap ship , , but it takes 5 times longer in training before you can use that capital ship effective
So if a alliance /coalition can field and plan such operation a simple cyno is just the icing on the cake

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#185 - 2013-01-15 08:41:54 UTC
fukier wrote:
I am not saying get rid of force projecttion at all... 50 bs of mass is pretty large... I am saying if you want to jump 300 bs you need 6 titans to do so...

Which means 6 titans sitting outside a pos is an tempting target to counter hotdrop...

Actually, you said you'd need 6 cynos... Since your placing the limitation on cynos and not the titan. (Titan 1 will bridge its army on cyno 1... Once the mass limit is reached, cyno alt 2 lights up and titan 1 bridges the rest of the force to cyno 2. Which for all intensive purposes puts you squarly back at stage 1 with a hot dropping problem if those 2 cyno alts are 1km apart. Which brings me to my lack of support for this proposal. You won't stop force projection ala bridging by placing mass limitations on cynos... People will just send 10 cyno alts and fool you into thinking its a brawler gang as opposed to sending the obvious cyno alt... Ergo, -1 from me.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#186 - 2013-01-15 08:47:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
Grath Telkin wrote:
Crying and asking for things to get nerfed wont change that. We'll still drop right in on your cap group.


And that should be preserved. But dropping on "our" caps dozens jump away in less than 10 mins is just broken.
Most of Alliances/corp have the 5 minutes rule. If u cannot nuke smth in 5 mins, bale out, cos u ll get a drop 100%.

BSs are almost not flown (except in 0.0), coz of the Dread threat. And if it escalates to caps, u get supers on head by a third, forth...party.

If ppl knew that only neighbours, visitors can filed instantly capitals and non present parties in a decent time (let say 30-60 mins). There would be much more risking, fights and cap kills, but this time from smaller entities.

Whole lowsec, WH and most of Nullsec Alliances dont have such a projection capabilities. Those few that have are fully exploiting that broken mechanics. Why the rest of EVE should bow to the minority?

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2013-01-15 10:02:22 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
BoBoZoBo wrote:
fukier wrote:
I am not saying get rid of force projecttion at all... 50 bs of mass is pretty large... I am saying if you want to jump 300 bs you need 6 titans to do so...

Which means 6 titans sitting outside a pos is an tempting target to counter hotdrop...



This makes a lot of sense. The bringe in question is essentially without limits and it makes sense that this technology would have some-kind of limit like that as you need power to transmit such mass and being able to transport unlimited mass means unlimited power. There are not many items like this in eve that DONT have limits. Hell, even NPC stargates have trouble after enough ships passing through it at one time.

I find it hard to argue with this logic overall from a logic/tactical/immersion/roleplay standpoint and it could make space "smaller"


If I recall every ship that jumps consumes fuel based on the mass of the ship. So there is a limit based on fuel availability.

And just bridging in doesn't guarantee victory. Yesterday we dropped on a SOLAR alpha mael gang with an AHAC gang, but we had to run because they managed to pop our cyno pilgrim before we all bridged, causing only 4 ships to bridge to the cyno (they died fast) and the rest of us to be scattered around and warping in at bizarre angles thanks to bubbles. I was in an Oneiros, and once me and the other logis were on grid we were holding reps, but we lost a good chunk of our DPS so the FC had us leave. We managed to save over half the fleet, but it is a great example of how one thing going wrong can ruin the plan.

As I said bridging is fine.

great story.

now i see why you need unlimited cyno bridge (hint: you can park hauler close to titan and refuel it when need) and safety of bridge from under POS shields.Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Mascha Tzash
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#188 - 2013-01-15 10:38:09 UTC
If this POS-Jumpdrive really ever goes life (was once mentioned in the CSM Minutes) I would love to read stories where those things are used as beachheads for invasions.
Imagine a POS that is briged in by a capital cyno (whichis lit by a capital ship, which was bridged in by a "normal" cyno) beeing shot into reinforcement and then serves solely as a small safespot for a large fleet coming in via a regular JB that is anchored to said POS. Maybe the reinforce would make it too easy for the invaders, but thats for smarter people than me to think through.

I dont live in sov-space and most likely never will so this is more than just a fantasy to me and made up by myself. :)
Juan Andalusian
Shocky Industries Ltd.
Goonswarm Federation
#189 - 2013-01-15 10:42:36 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Maybe because it helps to facilitate large scale warfare across the ******* map, without the tedious need to travel 50 jumps, or to build a hundre of the damn things.

The mechanics are working as intended, it's your expectations that are wrong.


Ridiculous notion, but your join date pretty much explains a lot.

Just to clue you in there used to be large scale warfare even in the early days. Guess what there were no titan bridges then.

People didn't have to do 50 jump to get large scale warfare either, for reasons such as:

1) They had enemies closer.

2) It was large scale warfare... you didn't undock from your HQ and travel to the enemies HQ every day, unless you are a ******. There are concepts known as preparation... logistics... bringing stuff to a staging system and operating from there.

"Mechanics working as intended" isn't the issue. It's the effect mechanics have on the game.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#190 - 2013-01-15 10:44:21 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
great story.

now i see why you need unlimited cyno bridge (hint: you can park hauler close to titan and refuel it when need) and safety of bridge from under POS shields.Cool


yeah no titans can literally carry more fuel with room to spare for mods and stuff than what you could haul to them in any ship short of a jump freighter

thanks for playing

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#191 - 2013-01-15 11:29:33 UTC
Juan Andalusian wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Maybe because it helps to facilitate large scale warfare across the ******* map, without the tedious need to travel 50 jumps, or to build a hundre of the damn things.

The mechanics are working as intended, it's your expectations that are wrong.


Ridiculous notion, but your join date pretty much explains a lot.

Just to clue you in there used to be large scale warfare even in the early days. Guess what there were no titan bridges then.

People didn't have to do 50 jump to get large scale warfare either, for reasons such as:

1) They had enemies closer.

2) It was large scale warfare... you didn't undock from your HQ and travel to the enemies HQ every day, unless you are a ******. There are concepts known as preparation... logistics... bringing stuff to a staging system and operating from there.

"Mechanics working as intended" isn't the issue. It's the effect mechanics have on the game.


Oh finally someone with a bit of sane logic.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2013-01-15 12:24:55 UTC
Capital blobbing aside...

Let me just say that if I had to pick from any capital ships in any sci-fi setting, then honestly, EVE Online capital ships would probably end up being at the very bottom of my list for the simple reason that their focus and functionality is rather off.

The first and foremost problem is the obvious and complete lack of defensive capabilities. And I am not talking about tanking but shooting back at smaller ships.

Sorry, but regardless of whether I'd have a carrier or mothership or dreadnaught or whatever, I would not even touch a design that isn't armed with turrets and point defences alongside it's main weaponry.

Now whilst EVE is what it is, the whole 8 slot design is quite the shackle for large ships. It works more or less up to battleship sizes because weapon sizes scale to a point and there are options available (drones, e-warfare etc) which can help said ships to deal with smaller sized targets - which is perfectly fine.

But then comes the larger ships.

Dreads, carriers and titans.

Logistics, bridging and all that put aside: catch an Avatar all by itself out there and it's party time, right?

So, yeah, someone remind me again, what exactly is so threatening about this giant space penis except for it's 10 minute ejaculations...IF you bring your own capital ships that is?

Whilst blobbing is an issue all by itself which is not easily solved (and partially because a large part of the community DON'T want it solved despite it's obvious problems), one issue that could be solved is the threat factor of a capital ship. I'd say let these ships get the ability to slap on 8 small and 8 medium turrets on top with some minor racial bonus to'em for starters and see how it will work out. From the macro scale this extra DPS will mean little compared to the main offensive capabilities they already have.

As for the blobbing issue. Frankly, the only thing that would really solve this is in fact line of sight mainly and eventually collisions. But the latter specially is kinda an insane nut to crack. However I can't see any other realistic method of discouraging blobs, capital ships or not.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#193 - 2013-01-15 13:55:55 UTC
fukier wrote:
TLDR:
Cyno now has a mass limit of 20 billion kg (just over 8 Titans or 10 super carriers)
Titan Jump Bridge now works as a two way Worm Hole that has a mass limit of 10 billion kg (about 50ish Battleships)
Jump Drives now have an independent spool up time to activate (time is 10 min with a new skill that can reduce to 5 min at lev V) Also if a titan wants to activate the Bridge it needs to be sitting outside the pos shield.


This is actually a good idea... which is why it will never happen. The nullsec alliances don't like good ideas or new challenges. They are addicted to the comfort of current game mechanics as much as they are addicted whining that they're still not comfortable enough.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#194 - 2013-01-15 14:43:13 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
You're just incentivizing "blobbing" because now you need to have at least 4-5 titans active, a ton of entrance cynos, and supercap hegemony to protect your titan and do a fleet. Or you can spend hours jumping through gates, losing 5-10 people each time you jump from desyncs and lag, only to get hotdropped by someone who does have these things. That doesn't sound fun.

Limiting cyno mass on jumps doesn't really solve anything, you can just daisy chain cynos in with the capitals you are dropping. And again, only those who have a distinct advantage would be using cynos. A few extra immobile carriers don't matter if you have 40 SCs and 40 Titans.

There is no issue with force projection, nullsec is already "small" because there are very few entities participating. You shouldn't have to jump halfway across the map for a good fight, there should already be one on your doorstep. Force projection nerfs just make it more difficult for people to get fights, probably the biggest reason why people still live in nullsec.



Second half of your post is really leading to a different discussion I think. You know how many Test systems I pass through to get to Stain from lowsec down in Gallente space that have 0 occupants? Around 15 I think in a 58j route. Plus the typical "you blue everything" kneejerk response hehe.

I do however agree with what you said in the first part however, and that brings a difficult line to draw. Limit the #s in a fleet that can jump at once, or limit the #s in fleet that have assigned roles. Bleh.

Due to mechanics I'd agree with the OP based on how WH gates work, using fuel etc for jumps. But due to fights and how the whole purpose of those abilities and what they are used for.... yea open the flood gates.

Hard to take a stance really if you take an impartial view. Without bias both sides make sense.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#195 - 2013-01-15 14:54:15 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
show us on the sov map doll where the big bad goon touched you...



6Q in Stain. My Geddon got touched badly. =(

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#196 - 2013-01-15 15:10:19 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Null is intended for large scale player activity, and tools need to facilitate that, including the ability to move around large numbers quickly. No one wants to spend hours on end moving across the mob to engage in war, and CCP wants peopel to engae in large scale fights in null.


And nothing says you can't do this in a larger playing environment. You will just have to choose your target more carefully, and make sure you leave forces at home to protect your assests at home.


Yeah, cause we definitely don't do this now.



No argument there. But if it took 10 times longer to go anywhere, it would take ten times longer to get back. You would be less likely to go that far in the first place.

Less likely, not say you still wouldn't.

You would, or should, chose your targets more carefully.

You guys keep ignoring the part where CCP WANTS US TO.

Why is this hard to accept? CCP wants us to be able to move 40 jumps easily, so we WILL go that far for a fight. It's like you guys are are ignoring this or pretending as if it's not intended.



Natsett, I agree with you for the most part in this thread until this. The part I can't accept or need rather, to call foul, is whenever I mention CCP has designed it "that way so it must be right" I get stripped and flayed by your alliance or other forum warriors. Now maybe my forum pvp isn't good enough to handle it, but I still think a stance needs to be taken.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression Goons were meant to show everything wrong with CCP and how they could make it better? I understand this could be in relation to other topics and facets, but when you talk about a game designer, it has to hold across the board. And I don't necessarily mean game mechanics, but game design (I'm sure you already know the other arguments from other topics, not trying to derail).

In short, I think there needs to be acceptance if CCP is right, or a drive if CCP is wrong. But using both for arguments sake leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I'm sure others will see this as homogenizing the argument instead of trying to improve things.

At any rate, keep up the good fight!

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2013-01-15 15:30:19 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Crying and asking for things to get nerfed wont change that. We'll still drop right in on your cap group.


And that should be preserved. But dropping on "our" caps dozens jump away in less than 10 mins is just broken.
Most of Alliances/corp have the 5 minutes rule. If u cannot nuke smth in 5 mins, bale out, cos u ll get a drop 100%.

BSs are almost not flown (except in 0.0), coz of the Dread threat. And if it escalates to caps, u get supers on head by a third, forth...party.

If ppl knew that only neighbours, visitors can filed instantly capitals and non present parties in a decent time (let say 30-60 mins). There would be much more risking, fights and cap kills, but this time from smaller entities.

Whole lowsec, WH and most of Nullsec Alliances dont have such a projection capabilities. Those few that have are fully exploiting that broken mechanics. Why the rest of EVE should bow to the minority?



see this is what i am talking about... make it so its not imposible to be hot dropped but allow for a fight between two said parties without having PL or somether Supercap force be there in a flash...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#198 - 2013-01-15 15:37:07 UTC
You guys don't find that an armada of ships is able to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in fifteen minutes amazing and health for the game?
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#199 - 2013-01-15 16:10:49 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Most of space is still barren and empty. Less mobility would only serve to add to how many individual sov entities could exist per unit of space

So sure of this, you are.



Are you suggesting that most all of null sec is a living zones where people frequent often, make isk in often, live in and there are more then 1-2 or a small handful of people within at any given time (if that?)


Just to be clear so I can be "certain" of what you are saying before I slap some dotlan in your face. Let's just be clear in order to avoid more "communication issues" in this thread shall we?

None of that has **** to do with titans.

No one is using titans to move around on a regular basis, within their living space.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#200 - 2013-01-15 16:32:35 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
You guys don't find that an armada of ships is able to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in fifteen minutes amazing and health for the game?

Fifteen minutes, lol.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)