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FW and Tiers: fighting for the real strongholds
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Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#21 - 2013-01-14 13:23:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Hidden Snake
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
fw is what it is and ccp is not going to fix it for years.


It has been already fixed multiple times. The greed of these FW players is just outrageous. So many hours spent on fixing their precious FW, when will they just shut up and join a proper nullsec alliance?



well TBH ... they need to fire people fixing it first ... then remove the overcompliated models over it (mostly tier system), let it settle down .... cut the profit from lp stores by 50% and let it be for a while ....

And then hire someone inteligent to start working on low sec (including FW).

If this is lab for nullsec I am really scared what will come to null in next patch.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#22 - 2013-01-14 13:44:21 UTC
Faction Warefare is much better now than it was in the past. At the end of the day you will never get rid of farmers. If faction warefare shall support agressive PVP it needs to be relatively well profitable compared to other activities in EVE. As long it is well profitable you will always find people who will just do it for farming and use the earned ISK for other purposes. However, in contrast to Mining-Farmers or Mission-Farmers you can at least kill some of the FW-Farmers when they do not pay sufficient attention. This is a big pro of Faction Warefare in general.
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#23 - 2013-01-14 13:47:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Hidden Snake
Meditril wrote:
Faction Warefare is much better now than it was in the past. At the end of the day you will never get rid of farmers. If faction warefare shall support agressive PVP it needs to be relatively well profitable compared to other activities in EVE. As long it is well profitable you will always find people who will just do it for farming and use the earned ISK for other purposes. However, in contrast to Mining-Farmers or Mission-Farmers you can at least kill some of the FW-Farmers when they do not pay sufficient attention. This is a big pro of Faction Warefare in general.



not true ... in past there were farmers, but they did not interfere with the war effort and were minority (actually their impact on markets was tiny). Now they are deciding power and can crash markets anytime, which is stupid. All because somebody wants to make isk and wants to RP and has power to influence the game .... High five anyone? What?
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#24 - 2013-01-14 13:50:32 UTC
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:

It is fail because it still isn't really attracting all that many players to eve. FW could be something that massively increases the number of people playing this game. Instead its more of what eve already offers in that it is a stepping stone to dull sec.

No one is asking for arenas, or lack of consequences. Those are just red herrings.

I think many people who leave eve and fw just want the game to not be so boring for so many hours. People think hey I now have the isk to buy ships and the skillpoints and skill to fly them lets get the pvp! Then they are disappointed that decent fights are so rare.

4-7 decent pvp fights in 2 hours is not too much to ask. CCP can easilly do that. It can be done in the context of achieving goals for a larger war as well. We don't need arenas or free ships. We just need to know where people are plexing so we can fight for the plexes instead of roaming around randomly for hours. Its that simple.


while I am not getting 4-7 fights in 2 hours, 3 or 4 fights in that time frame is rather easy in FW as is....and mostly do to me playing and plexing in off peak time, Most of the time im online and playing is when server is around 20-30k players, Not the 50-55k it can get up to

Most of the fights are, I jump into a system, I scan for plexs and see if any are open in Overview and how many WTs, if there are WTs i hit the plexs that are open to look for a fight..... if none around I run said plexs, takes me 10-25m depending on plexs, I earn some isk, and sometimes someone comes to fight me, pretty often really




I usually go to the systems with the most wartargets and look for plexes. If I have to roam outside those 5 or 6 systems things get very bleak. But even in the main systems I will do multiple plexes with no one coming in.

Or often they will leave system when I am in the middle of the plex. Then I leave the plex and system so that I can get pvp. If I don't, I will waste allot of time with no fights. This is one example of the gap between plexing and pvp.

If you or I really wanted to win the war we would plex where no one can see us and of course we woudln't leave a plex we started because the enemy left. This demonstrates that the whole fw occupancy model is still broken. You and I are just using plexes to find fights instead of really fighting over them. We either do that or we won't get fights at all.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#25 - 2013-01-14 13:56:33 UTC
Hidden Snake wrote:
Meditril wrote:
Faction Warefare is much better now than it was in the past. At the end of the day you will never get rid of farmers. If faction warefare shall support agressive PVP it needs to be relatively well profitable compared to other activities in EVE. As long it is well profitable you will always find people who will just do it for farming and use the earned ISK for other purposes. However, in contrast to Mining-Farmers or Mission-Farmers you can at least kill some of the FW-Farmers when they do not pay sufficient attention. This is a big pro of Faction Warefare in general.



not true ... in past there were farmers, but they did not interfere with the war effort and were minority (actually their impact on markets was tiny). Now they are deciding power and can crash markets anytime, which is stupid. All because somebody wants to make isk and wants to RP and has power to influence the game .... High five anyone? What?



You forgot having the farmers kick you out of your stations.

I'm not going to say the fw occupancy is worse now but it certainly isn't "much better." There are still only a very small number of people who care about it. Thats because the CCP didn't address the fundemental problem with it. The vast majority of plexes are still taken without a fight. Instead ccp just threw isk at FW and when players from other areas of the game came to farm it they called it fixed.

When they "fix" null sec we will see them throwing huge amounts of isk at that as well.
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#26 - 2013-01-14 14:12:27 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:
Hidden Snake wrote:
Meditril wrote:
Faction Warefare is much better now than it was in the past. At the end of the day you will never get rid of farmers. If faction warefare shall support agressive PVP it needs to be relatively well profitable compared to other activities in EVE. As long it is well profitable you will always find people who will just do it for farming and use the earned ISK for other purposes. However, in contrast to Mining-Farmers or Mission-Farmers you can at least kill some of the FW-Farmers when they do not pay sufficient attention. This is a big pro of Faction Warefare in general.



not true ... in past there were farmers, but they did not interfere with the war effort and were minority (actually their impact on markets was tiny). Now they are deciding power and can crash markets anytime, which is stupid. All because somebody wants to make isk and wants to RP and has power to influence the game .... High five anyone? What?



You forgot having the farmers kick you out of your stations.

I'm not going to say the fw occupancy is worse now but it certainly isn't "much better." There are still only a very small number of people who care about it. Thats because the CCP didn't address the fundemental problem with it. The vast majority of plexes are still taken without a fight. Instead ccp just threw isk at FW and when players from other areas of the game came to farm it they called it fixed.

When they "fix" null sec we will see them throwing huge amounts of isk at that as well.


actually they increase the problem because fights happening over the home systems and rest is just farmed but it also affecting the ill tier system and leading to disballance.
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#27 - 2013-01-14 14:20:54 UTC
System upgrades were the key to giving certain systems more value than others.... CCP Ytterbium unstickied their thread on that one without any update.

But at this point I'm more inclined to agree with Bad Messenger in that CCP are relatively satisfied with their 'fix' to FW and the promised continuing iterations wont happen now for years because they've got other fires to put out.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#28 - 2013-01-14 14:31:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Meditril
Hidden Snake wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:
Hidden Snake wrote:
Meditril wrote:
Faction Warefare is much better now than it was in the past. [...]



not true ... in past there were farmers, [...] What?



You forgot having the farmers kick you out of your stations.

I'm not going to say the fw occupancy is worse now but it certainly isn't "much better." [...]


actually they increase the problem because fights happening over the home systems and rest is just farmed but it also affecting the ill tier system and leading to disballance.

Unfortunatelly I do not see that the proposals made here will reduce any of these problems. It will make them even worser. If you force that farming horde to go for the key systems only, then sooner or later there will be no key systems because everybody will just avoid putting his stuff into stations at risk being locked out in Faction Warfare systems.

Currently mechanics works similar to real life. There are some core systems, which their inhabitants keep clear and go for any plexer instantly. Then there are those "neverlands" who are of no real interest. This is the place where the proxy war happens. This system made it possible for the Amarr to hold Aset for long time... but at the end there was a strategic decision of Minmatar leadership to finally flip it and it took days of really good fights to do so.

The farmers are like a back ground noise, it is always there, it is disturbing sometimes entertaining but at the end of the day it is unfocused and just there, so adapt to it and learn to cope with it. Just one final word... Amarr still has not lost all systems and they even managed to get some systems back. Looks like the mechanics is working as intended.

From my point of view the most needed change to Faction Warefare is a clean up of the LP store. There are simply to few items which are worth being used. For example, there is no point in using Faction 1MN Afterburner if the Deadspace variant of it costs like 1/5 or less of the costs. For most items the ridiculous amounts of needed tags simply have to be significantly reduced.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#29 - 2013-01-14 14:35:41 UTC
It's unfortunate that the agreement of the four powers covering FW places equal value on far off systems as they do on militia "home systems." Each militia should adjust their strategies accordingly.
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#30 - 2013-01-14 14:42:21 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Hidden Snake wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:
Hidden Snake wrote:
Meditril wrote:
Faction Warefare is much better now than it was in the past. [...]



not true ... in past there were farmers, [...] What?



You forgot having the farmers kick you out of your stations.

I'm not going to say the fw occupancy is worse now but it certainly isn't "much better." [...]


actually they increase the problem because fights happening over the home systems and rest is just farmed but it also affecting the ill tier system and leading to disballance.

Unfortunatelly I do not see that the proposals made here will reduce any of these problems. It will make them even worser. If you force that farming horde to go for the key systems only, then sooner or later there will be no key systems because everybody will just avoid putting his stuff into stations at risk being locked out in Faction Warfare systems.

Currently mechanics works similar to real life. There are some core systems, which their inhabitants keep clear and go for any plexer instantly. Then there are those "neverlands" who are of no real interest. This is the place where the proxy war happens. This system made it possible for the Amarr to hold Aset for long time... but at the end there was a strategic decision of Minmatar leadership to finally flip it and it took days of really good fights to do so.

The farmers are like a back ground noise, it is always there, it is disturbing sometimes entertaining but at the end of the day it is unfocused and just there, so adapt to it and learn to cope with it. Just one final word... Amarr still has not lost all systems and they even managed to get some systems back. Looks like the mechanics is working as intended.

From my point of view the most needed change to Faction Warefare is a clean up of the LP store. There are simply to few items which are worth being used. For example, there is no point in using Faction 1MN Afterburner if the Deadspace variant of it costs like 1/5 or less of the costs. For most items the ridiculous amounts of needed tags simply have to be significantly reduced.


I am not proposing anything (now it is just fact)... i am telling to get rid of the benefits of plexing ... the horde will vanish .... porblem is combination of tiers (multiplying lp gains) and plexing of remote empty systems.

ad lp store ... just get rid of ridiculous bonus prices u have .... get rid of the tier system.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-01-14 17:27:55 UTC
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:
Otherwise stick to 3-5man gangs and plex a system and support each other if needed, you will get tons of 1v1, 2v1 3v3s etc all fun fights in cheap ships that take skill to use well

3-5 men who "support each other" as soon as a wt shows up are a blob to the solo player.

.
Tsobai Hashimoto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-01-14 20:12:07 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:
Otherwise stick to 3-5man gangs and plex a system and support each other if needed, you will get tons of 1v1, 2v1 3v3s etc all fun fights in cheap ships that take skill to use well

3-5 men who "support each other" as soon as a wt shows up are a blob to the solo player.


Yes it will, but you 3-5 is spread over 3 or 4 systems, cuz 3-5 guys in one system run out of plexes to run really quick

that is why it mostly turns into 1v1s, or 2v1s but more often than not most WTs that are plexing that are not WCS farmers run in pairs it seems, safer and more efficient at moving the SOV

I have had a lot of 2v3 and 3v3 fights doing the small plex force fleet setup....and yes every so often you got 3 guys hunting down a lone guy....but thats EVE, bring a friend and make it a fight
Taoist Dragon
School of Applied Knowledge
#33 - 2013-01-15 04:58:14 UTC
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:
Otherwise stick to 3-5man gangs and plex a system and support each other if needed, you will get tons of 1v1, 2v1 3v3s etc all fun fights in cheap ships that take skill to use well

3-5 men who "support each other" as soon as a wt shows up are a blob to the solo player.


Yes it will, but you 3-5 is spread over 3 or 4 systems, cuz 3-5 guys in one system run out of plexes to run really quick

that is why it mostly turns into 1v1s, or 2v1s but more often than not most WTs that are plexing that are not WCS farmers run in pairs it seems, safer and more efficient at moving the SOV

I have had a lot of 2v3 and 3v3 fights doing the small plex force fleet setup....and yes every so often you got 3 guys hunting down a lone guy....but thats EVE, bring a friend and make it a fight


^^ This by far is one of the best ways to run in FW.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#34 - 2013-01-15 06:48:35 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Quote:
fw is what it is and ccp is not going to fix it for years.

better to look for something else to do if you do not like it.


Well I don´t believe it. They have put so much effort in DUST. If fw will be fail like it is, DUST will be fail too. CCP can´t risk that.



As much as I hate to admit it cause I also want Dust to fail on console so that we get a pc port - as soon as you hook up a kb/mouse to your ps3 - Dust is actually very good.


Try it for a few rounds and once you get good teamwork happening- you're hooked.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#35 - 2013-01-17 11:09:45 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Faction Warefare is much better now than it was in the past. At the end of the day you will never get rid of farmers. If faction warefare shall support agressive PVP it needs to be relatively well profitable compared to other activities in EVE. As long it is well profitable you will always find people who will just do it for farming and use the earned ISK for other purposes. However, in contrast to Mining-Farmers or Mission-Farmers you can at least kill some of the FW-Farmers when they do not pay sufficient attention. This is a big pro of Faction Warefare in general.


Yes, it wouldd be nice to have mechanics that support PVP, and not what you're corp is doing.
Example: after triad warps in the 5th ship to kill ONE FRIGATE plex gate should not allow 5 more to jump in to have 11 v 1 "fight" and call it "low sec pvp". (they never undock without their Lokis)
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#36 - 2013-01-17 11:11:01 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:
Otherwise stick to 3-5man gangs and plex a system and support each other if needed, you will get tons of 1v1, 2v1 3v3s etc all fun fights in cheap ships that take skill to use well

3-5 men who "support each other" as soon as a wt shows up are a blob to the solo player.


I can deal with 3-5. Problem is people like Meditril who doesnt want to support each other, they want to chase solo FRIGATE plexers in a fleet of 11.
kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2013-01-17 11:58:37 UTC
He cynthia, don't you have you alts to keep you company?
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#38 - 2013-01-21 00:04:00 UTC
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
Yes, it wouldd be nice to have mechanics that support PVP, and not what you're corp is doing.
Example: after triad warps in the 5th ship to kill ONE FRIGATE plex gate should not allow 5 more to jump in to have 11 v 1 "fight" and call it "low sec pvp". (they never undock without their Lokis)


Maybe you should stop hexaboxing your cloaky stabbed bantams and pay attention to fewer screens and you wouldn't get pounced by people who actually have friends.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-01-21 00:33:37 UTC
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
Yes, it wouldd be nice to have mechanics that support PVP, and not what you're corp is doing.
Example: after triad warps in the 5th ship to kill ONE FRIGATE plex gate should not allow 5 more to jump in to have 11 v 1 "fight" and call it "low sec pvp". (they never undock without their Lokis)


Oh, I'm sorry, you must have thought that we were in an arena and every fight should be somewhat fair. Cause I know that both squids AND frogs have taken almost every opportunity to overship and overblob the other guy. S'what happens.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#40 - 2013-01-21 02:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Cynthia Nezmor
Garr Earthbender wrote:
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
Yes, it wouldd be nice to have mechanics that support PVP, and not what you're corp is doing.
Example: after triad warps in the 5th ship to kill ONE FRIGATE plex gate should not allow 5 more to jump in to have 11 v 1 "fight" and call it "low sec pvp". (they never undock without their Lokis)


Oh, I'm sorry, you must have thought that we were in an arena and every fight should be somewhat fair. Cause I know that both squids AND frogs have taken almost every opportunity to overship and overblob the other guy. S'what happens.


I never said a word about squids nor frogs, little troll wannabe. You cannot see the big picture, like the angry kid before you.
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