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New module set for titans: Doomsdays/Point Defense
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CompactDisc7227
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-01-13 17:30:02 UTC
This topic is linked to a post in the New Modules sticky topic.

Description:
The idea of having small guns on capital ships has been discussed endlessly and to no avail, people don't seem to like the idea at all, and it's usually dismissed as being OP. So here is another attempt at being more balanced that people might like or dismiss like all others.

  • A new kind of doomsday device: (The OP version of this)
    • - People always wanted the old doomsday back for its effect, so I'd say here it is! A gun that works very well against subcapitals!
    - It is far less powerful than the old (indeed OP) and the other doomsday device since this gun will only fire at sub-capital ships within a range of 36-50km around the titan (depending on what seems balanced, HICs have a max 36km range on their targeted disruption) and put out damage randomly to all ships in there based on signal radius (only subcaps will be fired on).
    - Works like firing more than a hundred medium turret batteries from a fleet of cruisers but with the damage randomly outputted to ships in a 30-50km radius based on signal radius. The reason for using medium turret arrays is obvious: countering HICs and making sure that not just a single cruiser can stop a titan from escaping. One would need a swarm of ships to counter it by distracting the guns to those other ships, whether they be battleships or frigate sized which will easily tank or avoid these guns.
    - Will not pin down the titan jump-drive for 10 minutes since besides combat support this is also a mechanism to facilitate the escape of a titan or other super capitals from a small engagement.

  • OR a Point Defense system: (The more balanced version)
    • - A 'normalized' version of the doomsday device that fires just like any other weapon would do, with short cycles at anything that is subcapital and flies close enough. This also helps against HICs since they will have to get out of range or have a lot of subcapital support flying close to the titan to draw its fire.
    - Charge Options: the gun array needs to be loaded with an amount of normal turrets so that they can be more effective at tracking smaller or medium sized ships. (good against frigates tackling your carriers or dreadnoughts)
    - Ammo should probably be used somehow.

Reasons pro:
  1. Titan defense against HICs:
    2. Titans can be pinned down by a single HIC, they can't do anything against them at all and will be vulnerable if they are bumped out of a POS or just lose a battle and are the last thing remaining on the battlefield. This gives a chance to escape or just help the fleet beat those small ships during the engagement.
  2. More sub-capitals needed:
    3. If the titan is able to output immense damage to sub-caps it would be prudent to send in a lot of smaller ships instead of just capital ships since the HICs wouldn't be able to pin down titans anymore or even any capital ships if they are flying in close formation with a titan. It would increase the amount of sub-caps in large engagements so not everyone would be in supers.
  3. Better point defense:
    4. Point defense is already in the game, smart-bombs! But they also hit the enemy, and for capital ships at least there should be another option that doesn't hit friendlies since they are usually in the middle of their fleet. Especially with warp bubble mechanics as they are right now.
  4. Basic defense against small ships:
    5. Capital ships should not be on their own that is true, but they should at least contribute to the damage to all the small ships spread across the battlefield. I realise that smaller ships already don't stand a chance against these behemoths of ships, and rightly so in my opinion. There is just a lack of sub-capital counters against capital ships. Capital ships are meant to be very powerful, even against small ships, however this module attacks random targets and is thus no reliable damage dealer to any specific target, it will
  5. Realism:
    6. This is of course not much of a priority but still one, since EVE strives to be scientifically correct in as many ways as possible. Question is, what navy would not fit their greatest capital ships with point defense weaponry? I mean battleships were decommissioned because they couldn't fit enough defenses against small aircraft. If EVE follows the old fashion doctrine, the factions would withdraw titans and dreadnoughts for their vulnerability against fighters and fighterbombers. Hence this: add at the least some basic defense against fighters/small ships to the non-aircraft-carrier combat-focused capital ships.

Reasons against:
  1. Time Dilation:
    2. Could be massively TD inducing, but I have no clue how the code currently works for this, since there already are millions of things fly
  2. Balance:
    3. This is only half a reason, since the 'tiericide' will automatically remove this problem once it passes capital ships. The balancing should keep in mind all new kinds of modules of course. However I feel there should be evolution in EVE, since factions always invent new things against other new inventions.

Naming:
Doomsday devices:
- Caldari: Annihiliation
- Gallente: Umbra Aeternus (I have my doubts about this one)
- Amarr: Salvation
- Minmatar: Gungnir

OR

Hybrid: Heavy Neutron Blaster Array
Laser: Heavy Pulse Laser Array
Missile: Heavy Assault Missile Launcher Array
Missile Launchers can already be adapted to this role very easily (I believe) due to the existence of auto-targeting (FoF) missiles.
Projectile: 425mm Autocannon Array

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CompactDisc7227
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-01-13 17:30:09 UTC
Reserved

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CompactDisc7227
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-01-13 17:32:16 UTC
And another reserve just in case, you never know :p

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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#4 - 2013-01-13 18:07:42 UTC
So you would like Titan's to be entirely self-sufficient provided they blob, which by some freak occurrence they already seem to do!

Their defence IS subcapital fleets of their own, also known as 'support fleets'. The fact that they don't die right off the bat when out and about without one just means that they need to be adjusted downwards even further not that they should have speciality weaponry to allow them to operate in homogeneous Titan fleets.

Carriers, the Swiss army knives of capital warfare, might do with something akin to the point defence contraption .. would be easier to implement a capital smartbomb though but then supers would probably spam them.

In short: Ugh. Bad idea.
CompactDisc7227
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-01-13 18:47:22 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
So you would like Titan's to be entirely self-sufficient provided they blob, which by some freak occurrence they already seem to do!

Their defence IS subcapital fleets of their own, also known as 'support fleets'. The fact that they don't die right off the bat when out and about without one just means that they need to be adjusted downwards even further not that they should have speciality weaponry to allow them to operate in homogeneous Titan fleets.

Carriers, the Swiss army knives of capital warfare, might do with something akin to the point defence contraption .. would be easier to implement a capital smartbomb though but then supers would probably spam them.

In short: Ugh. Bad idea.

This was actually a suggestion for the Capital rebalancing, it would be nice to include new doomsday devices or at least some way for titans to survive if they get bumped from a POS with frigates but it might indeed be a good idea to put something like this on a carrier.

I do prefer the option of having a small subcap doomsday gun though, and of course after the remainder of Titans get nerfed in the tiericide or not, depending on what it's going to be like.

Join Kigurosaka Corporation in its quest for peace and prosperity! Read all about it on the wiki page. There is a link to our corporation page on EVE Gate there. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Kigurosaka_Corporation
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#6 - 2013-01-13 20:39:13 UTC
Problem is AoE, either if directed or with large radius, a point made abundantly clear on that last weekend before DDD was made directional and one bloc or another alpha'ed capitals with AoE .. that was when Titan count was 100-199, we now have at least triple that.

AoE will be abused and thus ultimately break the game.

During the discussions leading up the AoE nerf, the idea of scripting DDD and having a chain-lightning kind of thing was put forth.
Would solve it nicely I should think, bounce 1+1/lvl with initial damage around 100k and decreasing by 15-20% per target. Not enough to drop most battleships on first contact but enough to clear drones/fighter/F.bombers and BC down.

Question is what Titan's will be when the dust stirred up from their inevitable revisions settles .. there are so many of them now and each one has phenomenal power so my guess is they will be focused into a supportive role with SC's carrying the stick (ie. reverse of Carrier/Dread) .. we'll get the first glimpse when plans for gang bonuses are released as Titan bonuses are immense.