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Warfare & Tactics

 
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T1 sucks , the Snowball has landed

Author
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#61 - 2013-01-13 10:59:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Cynthia Nezmor
Vera Algaert wrote:
The biggest problem is that CCP chose T2 as the "100%" number - if they had just called T1 payouts "100%", T2 payouts "200%" and so on there would be a lot less "at T1 you get less for your work than you deserve" complaints.


Funny thing is, those complaints are coming from people who dislike pvp. I dont have a problem with that, when I started to play I was content with running my missions/exploration/etc too, didnt really had the motivation to blow up ships. But when you only lose ships to kids "that Legion should tank these Blood Raiders while I take care of that", disconnections or just general laziness "there are webbing frigates here?!" then why does it matter if you make 10 mil per hour or 200 mil. I never heard any good FW player complaining that he doesnt make enough ISK and cant afford to fight anymore.
Takanuro
Space-Brewery-Association
#62 - 2013-01-13 11:01:46 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
The biggest problem is that CCP chose T2 as the "100%" number - if they had just called T1 payouts "100%", T2 payouts "200%" and so on there would be a lot less "at T1 you get less for your work than you deserve" complaints.


That might actually make it worse. People would see more clearly that T5 is 500% more payout!

Yes, we're going to die, but you're coming with us!

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#63 - 2013-01-13 11:31:29 UTC
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
... then why does it matter if you make 10 mil per hour or 200 mil. I never heard any good FW player complaining that he doesnt make enough ISK and cant afford to fight anymore.

If FW was isolated from the rest of Eve then sure, the difference would be irrelevant, as farmers would just spend their LP/ISK to bling out their farm equipment while pew'ers got their running costs.
Unfortunately that is not the case. Revenue from FW can and is used all across the cluster and I bet that a majority of the vanilla militia farmers are null alts as they provide cheap (almost free) access to faction gear ..

To put it terms that your leet pvp centric mind can comprehend: Difference is one side getting to run in T1 cruisers while enemy runs faction cruisers, has permanent links, T1 logi, ewar, Titan bridges et al.
Just as in real life, ISK in Eve makes the world go 'round, the accumulation of said ISK is as much a part as PvP as actually shooting people in the face (especially for pew'ers with losses to cover) .. with one side being able to accumulate 5-6 times that of the opponent the whole thing suffers.
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#64 - 2013-01-13 11:44:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Cynthia Nezmor
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
... then why does it matter if you make 10 mil per hour or 200 mil. I never heard any good FW player complaining that he doesnt make enough ISK and cant afford to fight anymore.

If FW was isolated from the rest of Eve then sure, the difference would be irrelevant, as farmers would just spend their LP/ISK to bling out their farm equipment while pew'ers got their running costs.
Unfortunately that is not the case. Revenue from FW can and is used all across the cluster and I bet that a majority of the vanilla militia farmers are null alts as they provide cheap (almost free) access to faction gear ..

To put it terms that your leet pvp centric mind can comprehend: Difference is one side getting to run in T1 cruisers while enemy runs faction cruisers, has permanent links, T1 logi, ewar, Titan bridges et al.
Just as in real life, ISK in Eve makes the world go 'round, the accumulation of said ISK is as much a part as PvP as actually shooting people in the face (especially for pew'ers with losses to cover) .. with one side being able to accumulate 5-6 times that of the opponent the whole thing suffers.


I didnt hear any "leet pvp centric" player of Amarr Militia selling their Lokis. The only change I heard is that there is an Amarr Militia titan now for those oh so overpowered titan bridges. Since you cant lit cynos in most plexes, Titans still dont change a thing in FW. For Gods sake, try playing some FW sometimes! As in Faction Warfare, not Forum Warrior.

p.s. as member of the so called losing and poor militia, I am using Daredevils most of the time, and my last loss is a Cynabal. Maybe you are the only one in Amarr Militia who cant afford faction frigates, because you spend your time on forums, instead of playing FW?
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#65 - 2013-01-13 11:46:44 UTC
*grabs popcorn*
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#66 - 2013-01-13 11:48:45 UTC
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:
*grabs popcorn*


Please dont troll on forums, its not allowed, we are having serious discussions here!
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#67 - 2013-01-13 11:58:07 UTC
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:
*grabs popcorn*


Please dont troll on forums, its not allowed, we are having serious discussions here!


Who's trolling? I'm super serial
Gunship
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2013-01-13 12:21:59 UTC
Lots of good stuff here, but if we keep to the headline of this post, my simple argument is that regardless of LP value of items in the store the difference between a fraction being at T1 and this in turns means that the other fraction being T3 or higher is simply too big!

To Cynthia Nezmor; I played for over 10 hours yesterday, but I was not spinning around a button, its not my kind of fun to sit still for 10-20 minutes and do nothing! Indeed now and then a plex would be taken and I do try and also keep this objective in mind, but that's not the primary focus when you pvp. The incentive to wait an extra 5-10 minutes in a system before moving on is none-existent in a T1, its already very low with just 2-3 people in the plex at T2. We filled 2 pages Saturday killboard so I do think we help with the war effort ("arsed to actually play FW") and I did not have WCS fitted and I did loss a number of ships in the process. So at the odd time I do get a plex, it would be nice to not get minus %50.PS: I've lead fleets and Alliances since 2003 so while an old dog still can learn new tricks please don't start with the insults I really can't be asked to go that low Blink

My concern here is not for those who only do LP in WCS ships, they have an easy life, I could not give a damn. Where it does impact me is that the war is won by this activity more than by fighting. It is also wrong that the side with the fewest pilots are being snowballed not only by the enemy numbers, but in turn punished in there option to earn isk.

The in-pact on PVP funding is HUGE!

Please ask yourself this: When was the last time you saw a Minmatar fleet of 10 x Fleet Stabbers compared with when you last saw an Amarr fleet of 10 x Navy Omen's? The answer is resent and newer. I rest my case.
kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2013-01-13 12:26:34 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
... then why does it matter if you make 10 mil per hour or 200 mil. I never heard any good FW player complaining that he doesnt make enough ISK and cant afford to fight anymore.

If FW was isolated from the rest of Eve then sure, the difference would be irrelevant, as farmers would just spend their LP/ISK to bling out their farm equipment while pew'ers got their running costs.
Unfortunately that is not the case. Revenue from FW can and is used all across the cluster and I bet that a majority of the vanilla militia farmers are null alts as they provide cheap (almost free) access to faction gear ..

To put it terms that your leet pvp centric mind can comprehend: Difference is one side getting to run in T1 cruisers while enemy runs faction cruisers, has permanent links, T1 logi, ewar, Titan bridges et al.
Just as in real life, ISK in Eve makes the world go 'round, the accumulation of said ISK is as much a part as PvP as actually shooting people in the face (especially for pew'ers with losses to cover) .. with one side being able to accumulate 5-6 times that of the opponent the whole thing suffers.




Amarr make just as much isk as the minmatar at this point, in T2 even more. If you haven't noticed all those farmers had already turned Minnie LP worthless. I don't know anyone in minmatar militia that titan bridges. Both sides have links, Amarr has some of the richest most active PvPers. Faction cruisers dont out do T1 much these days and both sides run E-war and T1 logi. The game has changed keep up. Sulking wont do you any good. Quit FW and join RvB already.

Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#70 - 2013-01-13 13:42:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Cynthia Nezmor
Gunship wrote:
Lots of good stuff here, but if we keep to the headline of this post, my simple argument is that regardless of LP value of items in the store the difference between a fraction being at T1 and this in turns means that the other fraction being T3 or higher is simply too big!

To Cynthia Nezmor; I played for over 10 hours yesterday, but I was not spinning around a button, its not my kind of fun to sit still for 10-20 minutes and do nothing! Indeed now and then a plex would be taken and I do try and also keep this objective in mind, but that's not the primary focus when you pvp. The incentive to wait an extra 5-10 minutes in a system before moving on is none-existent in a T1, its already very low with just 2-3 people in the plex at T2. We filled 2 pages Saturday killboard so I do think we help with the war effort ("arsed to actually play FW") and I did not have WCS fitted and I did loss a number of ships in the process. So at the odd time I do get a plex, it would be nice to not get minus %50.PS: I've lead fleets and Alliances since 2003 so while an old dog still can learn new tricks please don't start with the insults I really can't be asked to go that low Blink

My concern here is not for those who only do LP in WCS ships, they have an easy life, I could not give a damn. Where it does impact me is that the war is won by this activity more than by fighting. It is also wrong that the side with the fewest pilots are being snowballed not only by the enemy numbers, but in turn punished in there option to earn isk.

The in-pact on PVP funding is HUGE!

Please ask yourself this: When was the last time you saw a Minmatar fleet of 10 x Fleet Stabbers compared with when you last saw an Amarr fleet of 10 x Navy Omen's? The answer is resent and newer. I rest my case.


It is fighting, thanks to people like you. When I needed all my alts in pvp ships, they were not in WCS Bantams, they were in Nagas, Vexors, Drakes. But why should I take 4 plexes and working on it hard, when I can take 6 and read a book while doing it? FW is the biggest pvp game ever made, FW as a whole. Your fleet could have taken dozens of plexes, but you chose to avoid the enemy. I even told you one time to go camp Isbra if you want this casual pvp, because they WILL show up to fight you. What did you do? Carefully avoided the enemy once again. Say what you will, but when I am out looking for fights and not semi afk plexing, I get more fights per hour than any fleets. Maybe I am wrong about you, but you seem to be thinking the enemy will undock just because you have a fleet, just to entertain you? Why would they, are they your friends? And why do you even need 2 people in the same plex if no one shows up to fight?! Shocked

Navy Omens are inferior to Fleet Stabbers, and you know it. If people were joining us, plexing home system of the enemy, they would get more LP=ISK, and they would get more fights. I know, I know, its a game of hypocrites. Your "small gang pvpers'" dont want to fight other "small gang pvpers", most of you are even in shared intel channels, and want nothing more than gank solo/dual boxing plexers, or God forbid a gang of 3 with your gang of 10+. Again, if you're not like this, don't take it personally, but that's what I see from most of the so called "pvpers" of Amarr militia.

p.s. i actually checked that kb http://fatalwarfare.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15882945
Gunship
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2013-01-13 15:53:02 UTC
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
Gunship wrote:
Lots of good stuff here, but if we keep to the headline of this post, my simple argument is that regardless of LP value of items in the store the difference between a fraction being at T1 and this in turns means that the other fraction being T3 or higher is simply too big!

To Cynthia Nezmor; I played for over 10 hours yesterday, but I was not spinning around a button, its not my kind of fun to sit still for 10-20 minutes and do nothing! Indeed now and then a plex would be taken and I do try and also keep this objective in mind, but that's not the primary focus when you pvp. The incentive to wait an extra 5-10 minutes in a system before moving on is none-existent in a T1, its already very low with just 2-3 people in the plex at T2. We filled 2 pages Saturday killboard so I do think we help with the war effort ("arsed to actually play FW") and I did not have WCS fitted and I did loss a number of ships in the process. So at the odd time I do get a plex, it would be nice to not get minus %50.PS: I've lead fleets and Alliances since 2003 so while an old dog still can learn new tricks please don't start with the insults I really can't be asked to go that low Blink

My concern here is not for those who only do LP in WCS ships, they have an easy life, I could not give a damn. Where it does impact me is that the war is won by this activity more than by fighting. It is also wrong that the side with the fewest pilots are being snowballed not only by the enemy numbers, but in turn punished in there option to earn isk.

The in-pact on PVP funding is HUGE!

Please ask yourself this: When was the last time you saw a Minmatar fleet of 10 x Fleet Stabbers compared with when you last saw an Amarr fleet of 10 x Navy Omen's? The answer is resent and newer. I rest my case.


It is fighting, thanks to people like you. When I needed all my alts in pvp ships, they were not in WCS Bantams, they were in Nagas, Vexors, Drakes. But why should I take 4 plexes and working on it hard, when I can take 6 and read a book while doing it? FW is the biggest pvp game ever made, FW as a whole. Your fleet could have taken dozens of plexes, but you chose to avoid the enemy. I even told you one time to go camp Isbra if you want this casual pvp, because they WILL show up to fight you. What did you do? Carefully avoided the enemy once again. Say what you will, but when I am out looking for fights and not semi afk plexing, I get more fights per hour than any fleets. Maybe I am wrong about you, but you seem to be thinking the enemy will undock just because you have a fleet, just to entertain you? Why would they, are they your friends? And why do you even need 2 people in the same plex if no one shows up to fight?! Shocked

Navy Omens are inferior to Fleet Stabbers, and you know it. If people were joining us, plexing home system of the enemy, they would get more LP=ISK, and they would get more fights. I know, I know, its a game of hypocrites. Your "small gang pvpers'" dont want to fight other "small gang pvpers", most of you are even in shared intel channels, and want nothing more than gank solo/dual boxing plexers, or God forbid a gang of 3 with your gang of 10+. Again, if you're not like this, don't take it personally, but that's what I see from most of the so called "pvpers" of Amarr militia.

p.s. i actually checked that kb http://fatalwarfare.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15882945


Most of your text does not make any sense...

The kill you refer to was a plexer that did not help out when warping in to help him with a WT, so we killed him . Just an alt who proceded to put 350mill worth of Bounty on us for killing his ship. I have newer LOL'ed that much in a long time.

You seam to think that the only way to play FW is to dual box plex alts, why are you even playing? whats fun about that. "Look my alts spend more time sitting in a plex than yours"????! WTF what kind of warfare is that!!


This is a summary for the battle for Kamela yesterday, I can't see anything wrong with defending a home system.
http://fatalwarfare.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=15872634

If you find the Navy Omen a bad ship, then let the CCP/CSM know about it, personally I think the Minmatar FW has so much LP the SFI is easily affordable where the Amarr PvP'er is struggling. I guess the SPI is better at running away from the battle if thats what you mean by betterUgh


ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#72 - 2013-01-13 17:17:51 UTC  |  Edited by: ground ctrl
Gunship wrote:
Lots of good stuff here, but if we keep to the headline of this post, my simple argument is that regardless of LP value of items in the store the difference between a fraction being at T1 and this in turns means that the other fraction being T3 or higher is simply too big!

To Cynthia Nezmor; I played for over 10 hours yesterday, but I was not spinning around a button, its not my kind of fun to sit still for 10-20 minutes and do nothing! Indeed now and then a plex would be taken and I do try and also keep this objective in mind, but that's not the primary focus when you pvp. The incentive to wait an extra 5-10 minutes in a system before moving on is none-existent in a T1, its already very low with just 2-3 people in the plex at T2. We filled 2 pages Saturday killboard so I do think we help with the war effort ("arsed to actually play FW") and I did not have WCS fitted and I did loss a number of ships in the process. So at the odd time I do get a plex, it would be nice to not get minus %50.PS: I've lead fleets and Alliances since 2003 so while an old dog still can learn new tricks please don't start with the insults I really can't be asked to go that low Blink

My concern here is not for those who only do LP in WCS ships, they have an easy life, I could not give a damn. Where it does impact me is that the war is won by this activity more than by fighting. It is also wrong that the side with the fewest pilots are being snowballed not only by the enemy numbers, but in turn punished in there option to earn isk.

The in-pact on PVP funding is HUGE!

Please ask yourself this: When was the last time you saw a Minmatar fleet of 10 x Fleet Stabbers compared with when you last saw an Amarr fleet of 10 x Navy Omen's? The answer is resent and newer. I rest my case.


The divide between pvp and plexing is *the* biggest problem with fw. It has been the problem since the start and ccp never addressed this.

I can go in a system and after 2 minutes of running the plex I might see the wartargets leave. Then if I want pvp I would be best served by moving on to another system instead of hoping some random wt will wander into my plex over the next 8 minutes. However if I really wanted to plex, I wouldn't even start the plex in a system with wartargets to begin with. I would just have my alts running plexes and basically run away if any wartargets came so that I could start other timers.

TLDR: FW occupancy war is still best done as a pve game.
Takanuro
Space-Brewery-Association
#73 - 2013-01-13 17:37:17 UTC
Gunship wrote:
Most of your text does not make any sense...

The kill you refer to was a plexer that did not help out when warping in to help him with a WT, so we killed him . Just an alt who proceded to put 350mill worth of Bounty on us for killing his ship. I have newer LOL'ed that much in a long time.


Seriously Gunship?

So you don't want to plex and don't want anyone telling you that you should care about Sov control, but a BLUE who did not want to PVP deserves your 'divine' wrath? Is that it?

By this logic Cynthia and alts have the right to come along and kill you for not helping with plexing!!!

I think your minnie alt is getting into your head and you are forgetting your are Amarr.

Yes, we're going to die, but you're coming with us!

Gunship
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2013-01-13 17:49:34 UTC
Takanuro wrote:
Gunship wrote:
Most of your text does not make any sense...

The kill you refer to was a plexer that did not help out when warping in to help him with a WT, so we killed him . Just an alt who proceded to put 350mill worth of Bounty on us for killing his ship. I have newer LOL'ed that much in a long time.


Seriously Gunship?

So you don't want to plex and don't want anyone telling you that you should care about Sov control, but a BLUE who did not want to PVP deserves your 'divine' wrath? Is that it?

By this logic Cynthia and alts have the right to come along and kill you for not helping with plexing!!!

I think your minnie alt is getting into your head and you are forgetting your are Amarr.




The guys was an idiot, and for the record my mini alt killed a number of minis for for fun and put 20 SFI in my hangers :)

For the record I no longer have a mini alt.
Taoist Dragon
The Flying Dead.
#75 - 2013-01-14 05:01:05 UTC
Guys (and gals)

why all the butt hurt among us?!

If you want to just pvp then go roam or camp gates or camp plex's or whatever.

Unless FW became another null sec smash the timer clone then sov warfare is a pve activity. It is however a pve activity that can generate good pvp. This is a great mechanic IMO that can be utilised by the vast majority of eve players so try different areas of eve.

If you want to pvp and do no plexing then so be it. Don't interfere with the guys plexing for you this just give the FW players a bad image. And truct me as an ex pirate FW players already have a very bad image and I'm afraid to say most of it is justified. If you want to pve for isk the plex away. run missions whatever. Don't give the pvp'er grief just cos they aren't playing 'your' way.

Seriously you lot need to take a chill pill. It's only a game and FW caters for a huge selection of eve players. Just play how you want to play and stop the bitchfest. It's like playing with a bunch of kindergardeners tbh.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Tsobai Hashimoto
Perkone
Caldari State
#76 - 2013-01-14 12:23:35 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Guys (and gals)

why all the butt hurt among us?!

If you want to just pvp then go roam or camp gates or camp plex's or whatever.

Unless FW became another null sec smash the timer clone then sov warfare is a pve activity. It is however a pve activity that can generate good pvp. This is a great mechanic IMO that can be utilised by the vast majority of eve players so try different areas of eve.

If you want to pvp and do no plexing then so be it. Don't interfere with the guys plexing for you this just give the FW players a bad image. And truct me as an ex pirate FW players already have a very bad image and I'm afraid to say most of it is justified. If you want to pve for isk the plex away. run missions whatever. Don't give the pvp'er grief just cos they aren't playing 'your' way.

Seriously you lot need to take a chill pill. It's only a game and FW caters for a huge selection of eve players. Just play how you want to play and stop the bitchfest. It's like playing with a bunch of kindergardeners tbh.



The issue I have is that I agree with a lot of peoples points on here, even though they both conflict with each other....gotta love drama....but most of all I agree with Taoist Dragon's point

Go play how you want to play, and have fun, but try and mix it up

While I know that some people want the 25 man fleets and some want solo or small scale pvp the thing is, we can have both

The one thing I hate most is people calling me a carebear cuz im plexing....yes im making isk, yes im killing an NPC ever so often, but im not fitted with WCS, i will defend my plex or try and take a WT out of their plex.... half the time to my death.....

carebears take zero risk, high sec mining or missions and warp away from any fight, dock up and spin when wardecced

I push the map, I dplex systems I think are important (saht, Kuni, Oyon area as of now) and I plex where I can make an impact and find fights

Go out and have fun!
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#77 - 2013-01-14 12:43:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:
....

That I think is how most of us play, problem is we are a minority so small compared to the farming horde, as to have close to zero impact on that all important WZC as well as docking rights.
While I am not happy with the new plex access restrictions, the fighting within is still what makes me log on as you know what you get with limited tomfoolery involved.

Personally don't dislike PvE as such, my problem with the current (and previous) setup is that the PvP is by and large dictated by the PvE .. which again would not be much of an issue if risk/reward was in tune.
Running/stabbed/cloaked semi-afk frigs pulling in 50K+ LP per hour, controlling WZC and docking rights is not healthy for FW .. by all means keep it as is but then find some other way (read: PvP centric) of determining occupancy.

@Taoist: The butt-hurt, as far as I am concerned, is because FW could be so much more. A multi-region wide furball of small-gang, blob and solo skirmishing.
jjohnpaul xvii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#78 - 2013-01-14 12:43:18 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I have 3 billion in cash, several billion in ships, and 2.4 million LP. If you are poor in FW you are doing it wrong.


I prefer not to define 'rich' by the iskies in the bank, but the quality of the friends i fly with.

How are Dan, Cynthia, and FlyingROFLpockets these days? Blink





WE FLY GOLD FLEET BRUVVAS COS 5 OF US COULDNT CONSISTIANTLY SPELL ''GREEN''.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2013-01-14 13:12:43 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:

it's foolish to try to take back the space . it's much better to just put an alt on the winning side and cash in on all the work they put in while getting paid a fraction what our alts will get.

just curious: why be part of one militia and put alt into another to make ISK? Wouldn't it be more reasonable to switch parties completely?

You don't want to fight for faction. You just want ISK. So join winning side and have fun.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#80 - 2013-01-14 14:13:41 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:

it's foolish to try to take back the space . it's much better to just put an alt on the winning side and cash in on all the work they put in while getting paid a fraction what our alts will get.

just curious: why be part of one militia and put alt into another to make ISK? Wouldn't it be more reasonable to switch parties completely?

You don't want to fight for faction. You just want ISK. So join winning side and have fun.



I do want to fight for a faction. But I realize that since october the system is purposely made unbalanced.

You like many others draw a false dichotomy. You assume people either want to fight or they want isk. As if people couldn't want both. Most people want both. The winning side will offer both.


I don't join the enemy with my main for a variety of reasons. And I don't plex for the enemies with my alts because I know people in my mains militia are still doing plexing. So out of respect I don't undo their efforts.

I used to be one of those hold outs telling everyone in the militia to try etc. Then the minmatar farming hordes came back from gallente sapce after we hit tier 4. And after that hans told ccp to remove the few economic balances that existed in inferno, because he thought the winning side was being punished for winning too much. So we had the october 22nd patch. Now its clear even to me that the game is broken.

The losing side can sit and wait for a null sec alliance to bail them out, because after october 22nd that is about the only way one side can turn the tides.