These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Warfare & Tactics

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Nerf T1 Logistics?

First post
Author
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#21 - 2013-01-13 01:46:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Merdaneth
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:
who doesnt like flying logi in a fleet? only KM whores thats who

logi is the most intense. nerv wrecking scaning for broadcast. watching for yellowboxing and jams. reading your watch list. keeping your cap chain up when your logi takes a hit and struggling to keep your friends alive


in large fleets logi is one of the most fun things you can fly.... in fatal when we have a 20 man roam we have to tell people no. you cant fly logi today. we already have 7!



Logi's can be loads of fun. They require quite a bit of skill and coordination, and mastering those can be quite a challenge. However, this is not about that challenge. This is about the metagame. Nanoships used to be lots of fun too, and also took some skill to pull of succesful. However, before long everybody was nano-ing, since the best counter against nano was going nano yourself.

This viral principle killed most variety in small gang or solo combat. Ships without MWD and nanoes in lows weren't undocked anymore.

Variety is good, but I still think that Logi's need a better soft counter to prevent Logi's from becoming the standard to fly in small gangs. Small non-Logi gangs (that aren't specifically it to counter Logi's gangs) should be viable. Incidentally, preventing everyone from gravitating to flying a mere handful of 'good' ships is one of the goals of tiericide. It creates variety and meaningful choice. Similarly, I think tacticide would be good. There should not be one optimal tactic, but a host of them available, each useful in varying degrees to oppose other tactics (preferably soft counters instead of hard counters, as soft counters generate fights, and hard counters just make the other side dock up).
Dan Carter Murray
#22 - 2013-01-13 01:48:23 UTC
depending on the amount of logi being brought by both sides you can easily counter logi with a ship called celestis (EVEN IF ENEMY LOGI ARE 1KM FROM THEIR REPPING TARGETS).

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com

ALUCARD 1208
Did he say Jump
Dock Workers
#23 - 2013-01-13 01:57:55 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
WOW IM AGREEING WITH A DCM POST .......after watching the vid of oms from ur guys side it was the damps and logi that broke u guys in the end ........ if u guys take a few celestis on ur roams instead of all wanting to be dps boats its a great way of busting logi either by reducing lock range or lock time stick ecm drones on the top and ur laughing
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#24 - 2013-01-13 01:59:49 UTC
Dan Carter Murray wrote:
depending on the amount of logi being brought by both sides you can easily counter logi with a ship called celestis (EVEN IF ENEMY LOGI ARE 1KM FROM THEIR REPPING TARGETS).

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻



This is not really the relevant question. The relevant question is not if (and how) they can be countered (or how easy it is), but what the optimal choice is.

Say, you are assembling a random small cruiser gang (5-15 ships). Two more pilots offer to join, and they can fly both Celestis and T1 Logi competently. What would you rather have them fly, if you don't know yet what you are going to face, but have a good chance of facing a hostile cruiser gang with T1 Logi's of comparable size?
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#25 - 2013-01-13 02:03:15 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
This concerns logistics in general, the easy of getting into logistics has just made it more visible. In small gangs (up to 15 pilots) the inclusion of several logi's on the enemy side ensures that you either get a comparable number of logi's instead, or fit especially to defeat the logi's. If you bring a kitchen sink fleet of comparable size, you'll just get destroyed without any kills to show for it.

Which is the main issue. The chaos of kitchen sink fleets can be fun, and even if they die horribly, the knowledge of taking a few hostiles with them to the grave is what often makes people repeat them. That is not possible with logi's. Bring a fleet with 4 cruisers and 4 logi's, you know you have to blob them to get any kills even.

As I've said so many times, if the optimal counter in a game to X is more of X, then its a game design flaw. This is true for T3 OGB's, but also true for T1 Logi's. If Logi's are that good in cruiser fleets, you will indeed see cruiser fleets without them die out.

Note: I don't maintain that Logi's cannot be countered in many ways, merely saying that the easiest and cheapest way of countering is bringing your own.


Actually the easiest way to counter logistics is to use one of the many strategies worked out for doing so, having 'bring your own' as your counter simply turns the fight into a 'who gets bored and warps off first' crapfest or gets you stomped because your opponant actually thought about it for more than five seconds.

Now for those wondering what I'm going on about when i mention strategies to fight logistics heres a few tactics that have worked for us either singly or combined.
+
1. Sensor Damping
If their logis rely on range to keep themselves safe then they are vulnerable to being damped out and forced to close range in order to do their job, which lets your tacklers get their hands on them more easily. Scan Res damps enable target switching to be more effective and can also combine well with ECM.

2. Neuting
One of the hardest jobs for logistics pilots is trying to maintain reps under neuting. Use them in numbers or use them on bonused hulls, either will have the effect you want. Missing a rep cycle because your logi got neuted out can often mean the difference between life and death particularly when its combined with other strategies.

3. High Alpha
Simply put, if the target dies before the reps can land then the logi pilots might as well have brought noob ships for all the effect theyll be having. Obviously works best with artillery but I've seen it done with high damage blaster setups as well

4. Target switching
This is a simple way to stress out opposing logi pilots and catch those that arent 100% on the ball. Execution is simple, rapidly cyle your primaries so they constantly have to lock and relock. Combos well with jamming and sensor damps and can be devastatingly effective in combination with high alpha.

Obviously this isnt the be all and end all of fighting against logistics but hey, you'll have more fun finding it out for yourself.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

ALUCARD 1208
Did he say Jump
Dock Workers
#26 - 2013-01-13 02:07:03 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Merdaneth wrote:
Dan Carter Murray wrote:
depending on the amount of logi being brought by both sides you can easily counter logi with a ship called celestis (EVEN IF ENEMY LOGI ARE 1KM FROM THEIR REPPING TARGETS).

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻



This is not really the relevant question. The relevant question is not if (and how) they can be countered (or how easy it is), but what the optimal choice is.

Say, you are assembling a random small cruiser gang (5-15 ships). Two more pilots offer to join, and they can fly both Celestis and T1 Logi competently. What would you rather have them fly, if you don't know yet what you are going to face, but have a good chance of facing a hostile cruiser gang with T1 Logi's of comparable size?



u take a mixture damps and logi dont put all ur eggs in one basket and assume ur taking logi so whatever fights u will probably field logi.... its common sense
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2013-01-13 02:25:47 UTC
Darek Castigatus had a great post, but yeah, there's plenty to do to screw with the enemy logi. When I watched the video of the Amarr/Gallente brawl in OMS, the Amarr FC was switching targets rather quickly. Even if a target didn't go down. Our logi pilots weren't all that experienced, and you caught them with their pants down more than a couple of times.

Scan res damps work wonders even if the battle logi is at 0 on the rest of the fleet.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper

Takanuro
Space-Brewery-Association
#28 - 2013-01-13 02:58:46 UTC
Saw an Eve Uni fleet that had 22 frigs, 2 bs and 19 logi cruisers! Now that's escalation, but in general I think the buff is good. Whereas it can be hard to raise 3-4 guardian pilots, at least now when FC's call for logi they general get 2+ as pilots happy to risk a 30-40mil ship even in random fleets whereas they won't risk a 200+mil Guardian. Plus it seems to make fights last longer and more enjoyable because it's not over in a flash.

Yes, we're going to die, but you're coming with us!

Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#29 - 2013-01-13 03:00:47 UTC
Takanuro wrote:
Saw an Eve Uni fleet that had 22 frigs, 2 bs and 19 logi cruisers! Now that's escalation, but in general I think the buff is good. Whereas it can be hard to raise 3-4 guardian pilots, at least now when FC's call for logi they general get 2+ as pilots happy to risk a 30-40mil ship even in random fleets whereas they won't risk a 200+mil Guardian. Plus it seems to make fights last longer and more enjoyable because it's not over in a flash.


I kinda like it. Last month I was in a fight that lasted over an hour. Amarr brought 40-odd ships and 30ish were t1 logi. It was spastic fun, since they didn't actually have any DPS on field.

Ammo manufacturing, the next big thing?
Nahzgul
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2013-01-13 03:22:22 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2013/01/nerf-t1-logistics.html



With the release of Retribution, any fleet over 15 ships, and logistics has become a necessity. FCs won't undock a mid- to large-sized fleet without logistics. If your logistics pilots aren't online, then you don't undock. And even if you have the logistics pilots available, there's still some grumbling. People just don't seem to enjoy flying logistics. People are sucking it up, climbing into their Augorors because the fleet won't undock otherwise.

Those days of just undocking with 15-20 people, heading out on a roam, are over. Now it's all about making sure you have the right fleet comp before an undock is even callled. It requires more planning, more of the right people with the right skills.

.


I disagree. If there is grumbling amongst your corpmates then that's a corp culture issue and not a game design issue. If you cannot get enough logi pilots out of a 300 man corp then the issue lies internally. I am in a 50 man corp and we have pilots who enjoy flying logi and don't mind sacrificing KMs. Heck, I will go so far as to say that there are only 2 other Gal Mil corps who can field more logi pilots than my corp. I know because I've flown with many larger corps and alliances and few of them have enough pilots to field logi. Even after the T1 buff to logi, these larger organizations cannot get their pilots to have a cheap 30M isk ship in their ship hangar. And yet they wonder why they can't go after bigger gangs than silly WT gangs roaming in their frigs/dessies.

Quote:
Ad hoc fleets, spontaneous roams. A thing of the past. And that makes me sad. Faction warfare has always been improvisational to some degree, and that's been lost with the advent of powerful T1 logistic cruisers. .


Again, that is a mindset issue within the corp. If you cannot do spontaneous roams then you either have pilots who need an FC to serve them PVP on a platter or you have FCs who lack creativity. I imagine it's a combination of both with Fweddit since you guys are still maturing as a PVP corp. I don't say that as a sleight to you but just speaking matter of factly.

I would highly recommend the directors or FCs within your organization look within and figure out how to change the mindset of your pilots. One of my favorite quotes;

Quote:
If you change the way you look at things, the things you look at will change.


TL:DR. T1 Logi doesn't need to be nerfed. Your corp culture and mindset towards logi and how small gang pvp operates needs to be buffed !


All while his 7 man fleets generally have 2 logi, which is why I'm guessing he didn't like your post too much :)
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
Siberian Squads
#31 - 2013-01-13 04:35:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
It's hard to call the logistic changes bad, but neither have they been good for faction warfare.

They are bad simply because promoting further overtanking in an already overtanked game can never be good.

If the game was not overtanked such things at tier3 battlecruisers would have been never introduced, that's pretty clear.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#32 - 2013-01-13 04:54:07 UTC
Logi dont get km's?

Pretty sure guardian and now augororororers are some of my highest scoring ships. Its called assigning drones.
Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-01-13 04:54:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
Didn't read this thread, but t1 cruisers in general got overbuffed.

There need to be viable t1 logi ships, but I believe there should be a bigger gap.
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#34 - 2013-01-13 06:51:50 UTC
It's really simple: most of the so called "pvpers" are playing for "kill mails". Logistic ships rarely get those. Flying Logistics is unpopular. They have to be OP. Given big enough numbers, a fleet of N dps ships will always lose to a fleet N/2 logis + N/2 dps ships. But you did not see a fleet of 8 Guardians and 4 Zealots + 4 Hurricanes, it was much more likely to have 2 Guardians for that fleet.
You nerf them, people will use them as frequently as they used Augorors before Farm Wars 2.0 ... I mean "Retribution expansion".
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#35 - 2013-01-13 07:34:40 UTC
Interesting information in this post. It's nice to see EVE is now on par with almost every other MMORPG where quality of healers determines result of fight and people can fly logistics very effectively even without 450+ mill scimis/guardians and 2bill triage carriers.

Great job, CCP! Now, please, add logis to killmails.
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#36 - 2013-01-13 08:11:51 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:

u take a mixture damps and logi dont put all ur eggs in one basket and assume ur taking logi so whatever fights u will probably field logi.... its common sense


You realize you are proving my point by saying it is common sense to always bring Logi, right?

So you only take damp ships if you already have Logi? Then Logi's are the must have, damps are an optional extra. Let me put it another way again, if you had the choice between adding two Logi's or two Celestis and you don't know what your are going to face, what would you chose in the following situations:

Your current fleet:
1. 9x dps ships, 1x Logi
2. 8x dps ships, 2x Logi
3. 10x dps ships
4. 9x dps ships, 1x Celestis
5. 8x dps ships, 2x Celestis
6. 8x dps ships, 1x Logi, 1x Celestis

Now, add 2x Logi or 2x Celestis?

My guess is that in the majority (if not all) of the cases the FC will choose to add 2 more Logi's. This means the choice of Logi's dominates all others, and that its not really a choice at all. Only FCs that are stupid or don't have the Logi's available will not add them.

Not appearing on killmails, the fact that many people like to pew and the difficulty of flying them are the major things holding them back, not their 'balance'


Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#37 - 2013-01-13 09:37:53 UTC
RR is best way to make people stay alive until enemy brings enough dps to kill them, so it leads to bigger fleets and more players/alts and ccp can sell more accounts.

There is no need to figure out anything that does not generate more account selling, CCP will not develope it if it does not bring more sales.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-01-13 10:23:16 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
RR is best way to make people stay alive until enemy brings enough dps to kill them, so it leads to bigger fleets and more players/alts and ccp can sell more accounts.

There is no need to figure out anything that does not generate more account selling, CCP will not develope it if it does not bring more sales.
What?

You're suggesting that blobbing brings more people to the game?

What?
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#39 - 2013-01-13 10:39:22 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
RR is best way to make people stay alive until enemy brings enough dps to kill them, so it leads to bigger fleets and more players/alts and ccp can sell more accounts.

There is no need to figure out anything that does not generate more account selling, CCP will not develope it if it does not bring more sales.


Nope, exciting gameplay brings more accounts. Fun makes people stay. CCP understands by now that bigger fleets rarely mean more fun for most people. The people that buy more accounts just to be able to blob others (or bring more Logi's in this case) are the players that would have likely bought those accounts anyway.

Frequent loss of ships also drives the economy. If two fleets meet, and one loses 100% of the ships, while the other loses 60%, than that is better for the economy (and all the industrialist players etc.) than if one loses 100% and the other 0%.

Also, a 100/60 % loss divide would likely be experienced as "gf" by more players than a a 100/0 % divide. Logi's increase 100/0 divide battles.
Warren Morris
Legends Unbound
Brave Collective
#40 - 2013-01-13 22:39:31 UTC
You sir need to learn more about countering things, other than moaning like a little Girl saying T1 Logi is OP.

T1 Logi is where it needs to be,Too Many people in eve scream Nerf because they are simply too lazy to understand the game and factor in counters to a enemy fleets.

Ecm FTW???


Learn how to play the game and use your brain

Don`t post pointless articles that have nothing to back up your statement