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Skill reallocation Option needs to finally be added and why
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Noriko Mai
#21 - 2013-01-12 20:15:41 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Sure decisions should have consequences, but training a skill is something you usualy do on the fly as needed, it is not a "Consequence" scenario, like me suicideing your hulk or wardecing you whatever.

There not even remotely the same kinds of decisions nor are they made for the same reasons.


You train skills for a BC for example because you like the BC. Its not your fault CCP decides to change the ship entirely thus making it pointless to fly it because of "your" "Playstyle".


Example: You fly Megathrons you've spent months training up your t2 blasters and perfecting your armor skills to fly it correctly.

- CCP goes, Ok people next patch the Megathron will become a Missile boat and be a shield tanker.

This effectively makes the Megathron useless to you and your Blaster/Armor playstyle.


That's a decision made by CCP, not YOU, a decision which you have 0 control over and can not in any way shape or form prevent.

Therefore you should not suffer because of it. And should have the option to reallocate your skills into missiles and shields, or hell, some other ship or whatever.

Rally? Whine somewhere else. Skills are never useless! If the situation changes you have to adopt. POINT!!!11^1
Kids nowadays... dacrare whining to a new part of every game...

EvE IS NOT WoW. Whine somewhere else..

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#22 - 2013-01-12 20:18:34 UTC
I find it amusing when an individual points out the logicality and validity of a suggestion or of an argument or proves why it needs to be implemented, individuals suddenly resort to telling them to stop whining.

I have no need for a skill respec I fly every ship in the game. (just about).


However I can not say that I would not enjoy one and take advantage of it, because I would. and I know for a fact every single nay sayer on here would also. They would find a reason to eventually.
marVLs
#23 - 2013-01-12 20:26:03 UTC
Nope
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#24 - 2013-01-12 20:26:59 UTC
I would enjoy having the ability to reallocate the OP's skillpoints.
DuKackBoon
Soban Heavy Industries
#25 - 2013-01-12 20:48:31 UTC
...Destroying one of the important features of EVE in the process.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#26 - 2013-01-12 20:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Pahrdi
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Sure decisions should have consequences, but training a skill is something you usualy do on the fly as needed, it is not a "Consequence" scenario, like me suicideing your hulk or wardecing you whatever.

There not even remotely the same kinds of decisions nor are they made for the same reasons.


You train skills for a BC for example because you like the BC. Its not your fault CCP decides to change the ship entirely thus making it pointless to fly it because of "your" "Playstyle".


Example: You fly Megathrons you've spent months training up your t2 blasters and perfecting your armor skills to fly it correctly.

- CCP goes, Ok people next patch the Megathron will become a Missile boat and be a shield tanker.

This effectively makes the Megathron useless to you and your Blaster/Armor playstyle.


That's a decision made by CCP, not YOU, a decision which you have 0 control over and can not in any way shape or form prevent.

Therefore you should not suffer because of it. And should have the option to reallocate your skills into missiles and shields, or hell, some other ship or whatever.

Don't you think this didn't happen to me too?

Battleship 4 of another race is a few days of training. And support skills have to be trained anyways. Including those for either gunnery or missiles.

So we're basically talking of training another flavor for a few weeks to decent proficiency. Perfection will take a bit longer, granted. But removing an important feature from the game for a few weeks of training?

P.S.: Training for both large blaster and railgun specs to IV would take me just 85 days. That is including support skills, because my gunnery support skills are underwhelming. And that's on a 24/24/17/17/17 SP distribution, so not even optimal.

Remove standings and insurance.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#27 - 2013-01-12 20:55:08 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
However I can not say that I would not enjoy one and take advantage of it, because I would. and I know for a fact every single nay sayer on here would also. They would find a reason to eventually.

No, I wouldn't. Because I've seen what happened in two other games, when this was introduced or extended.

Remove standings and insurance.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#28 - 2013-01-12 20:56:54 UTC
Not supported. If you specialize in something and it changes, adapt to it. Those skills that are no longer "relevant" can and will be useful at a later date on another ship. After awhile of doing this, you become "nerf-proof."

Besides... aside from the Prophecy and Cyclone, none of the battlecruisers are being radically changed.

Prophecy becomes a drone boat, gains a little more armor, gains a low slot, loses two high slots but gains the ability to use turrets or missiles equally.

The Harbinger loses a turrent and has its PG/CPU cut a bit, but it gains a higher damage bonus, and a little extra drone space.

The Ferox remains largely the same... but gains a bit more CPU/PG, mobility, an extra Turret, and gains a low slot.

The Drake also remains largely the same... but it loses a high slot, has its tank shaved down a bit, and becomes a bit "heavier."

The Brutix gains a low slot, gains a little more PG/CPU, gets a buffed capacitor, and buffed speed/agility.

The Myrmidon loses a high slot, loses a turret, loses a bit of PG/CPU, loses a bit of tank, and gains the ability to store and use one more heavy/sentry drone (♥).

The Cyclone gets changed to a missile boat, gains a low slot, gains a little more CPU, gains a little more tank, and has its capacitor buffed.

The Hurricane just loses a high slot, a bit of capacitor, and becomes a bit heavier. Nothing drastic.


So yeah... if you specialized in use a Prophecy or Cyclone, all is not lost. You still have another ship to apply your specialization towards (in fact, it's looking that this was the intention... each "specialty" gets one battlecruiser to work towards).

How did you Veterans start?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#29 - 2013-01-12 23:07:53 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Reading these forums for years and watching the game develop has been fun and interesting, however, it has also been a serious pain in the ass when they change certain aspect which force the player to spend months and sometimes years retraining, such as the nerfs they are giving the BC's in the upcoming patch will cause. (Among other things), and while perhaps not necessarily for the smaller items in game, when you start editing changing and nerfing the very functionality of ships which take years of training to fly properly, it is entirely inappropriate and unfair not to give the player some way to continue to play the game without the need for cross training or retraining of another ship.

Battleships are next on their chopping block from what I have read by the devs, and I suspect if this post is not given credit and this idea implemented, when they overhaul the battleships, demand for it will grow exponentially.

In leu of this, I believe it is high time the Developers finally added the Skill Reallocation feature to EvE.

* With this feature the player will no longer need to spend months training for another ship, item or whatever, simply because the devs decided to change something critical on a ship, item, weapon, whatever, which then made it useless for your play style, or ability.

* You will simply be able to open your skill chart, hit Respect and select the skills you wish to refund the SP for and then realocate it to another skill.

* This function already is setup and exists in EvE, the Devs have used it numerous times over the years. Its time they made it Optional and public for the player base itself.

* Restrictions of one or two respects per year could be implemented, such as with the attribute respects.
This game is no different from others, in the respect that they are subject to change. It's part of the TOS and EULA you agree too, when signing on.
Just because something changes, doesn't mean it suddenly becomes useless. It just means you have to adapt, or use something else. Nothing you've said, points to a reason for change.

I'll quote all the reason why, this is a bad idea.
Tippia wrote:
It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.


So it's also a no from me, as Tippia quite elegantly stated exactly why.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#30 - 2013-01-13 00:32:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
* It doesnt remove the point of having attributes, your still going to have to train stuff to get said skill points to begin with. and they can always limit the respec to the specific category the skill sp came from IE weapons, Drones, Leadership, etc. As the entire category uses the exact same attributes for all the skills in it.

* It doesnt remove attribute implants from the game as you STILL HAVE TO TRAIN THE SKILLS ORIGINALLY IN ORDER TO GET THE SP TO BEGIN WITH!

* It doesn't make your character less valuable on the bizzar in fact if anything It might increase the value because you can look at what people want, respec your char to that and sell it for massive profit.

* It in no way effects or removes the point of having skills, that is complete trolling.

* It in no way encourages cookie cutter setups, and people do that already so who cares? You afraid some noob will cookie cutter his skills and own you?

* It does not remove any history or who your character is, your character will remain exactly the same, with the same corp history the same good or bad rep and the same skills. You don't want to use the respec feature? Don't use it. You still have to buy the skill books to attain the skill also, you can't put SP into a skill you don't have or a skill which you lack the prerequisites for.

* It does not remove planning choice and consequence, you can still plan, choose and suffer from your skill choices, the only difference is you can now fix a mistake if you discover you've made one, rather then living with a gimped character for weeks or months.

* It in no way effects Goal planning, goal setting, progression or achievements, you will still earn these as you train your skills, and you still have to train your skills originally to get the sp to begin with.

* New players can edit their Skill selections just like old ones can, the only difference is new players will have the advantage, because the older ones know what to train and the new ones do not and mess up while training a LOT MORE because they do not understand how things work or what to train and specialize or focus in. So this give new players an advantage, rather then a disadvantage.

* Catching up is a figment of your imagination, there is no such thing as a vet will simply jump into another ship hes already skilled for, the only people not having this function hurts are newer players who do not have alternate skill sets already trained.


Your suggestions and points Tippia sadly are wholly incorrect, the only people not having this system hurts are the new players in the Eve community. As I stated above Veterans are not crippled by the changes as we can fly multiple ships anyway, how ever a character or player who's is only 3-6 months old and lacks cross training in multiple platforms, may be devastated by the changes and must start entirely from scratch.

If you truly desire to help new players you will vote for this system as they are the ones it really benefits. You constantly use newer players as a reason not to go with this system, and as a defense against many other ideas, when it is obvious your views are entirely about keeping the newer players from having any advantage over veterans. As most of the systems proposed which you disagree with are wholly designed to assist the new players in the Eve community.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#31 - 2013-01-13 01:42:53 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Reading these forums for years and watching the game develop has been fun and interesting, however, it has also been a serious pain in the ass when they change certain aspect which force the player to spend months and sometimes years retraining, such as the nerfs they are giving the BC's in the upcoming patch will cause. (Among other things), and while perhaps not necessarily for the smaller items in game, when you start editing changing and nerfing the very functionality of ships which take years of training to fly properly, it is entirely inappropriate and unfair not to give the player some way to continue to play the game without the need for cross training or retraining of another ship.

Battleships are next on their chopping block from what I have read by the devs, and I suspect if this post is not given credit and this idea implemented, when they overhaul the battleships, demand for it will grow exponentially.

In leu of this, I believe it is high time the Developers finally added the Skill Reallocation feature to EvE.

* With this feature the player will no longer need to spend months training for another ship, item or whatever, simply because the devs decided to change something critical on a ship, item, weapon, whatever, which then made it useless for your play style, or ability.

* You will simply be able to open your skill chart, hit Respect and select the skills you wish to refund the SP for and then realocate it to another skill.

* This function already is setup and exists in EvE, the Devs have used it numerous times over the years. Its time they made it Optional and public for the player base itself.

* Restrictions of one or two respects per year could be implemented, such as with the attribute respects.


BC nerf? Brutix, Prophecy, Ferox, HEEEEYYULLL YYYYYYEEEEEEEYYYAAAAH!!

sorry

anyways, No

many eve players see the long training time as a nice progression (as someone mentioned). u dnt max out ur game in a few months in eve, u play it for years. whether from a RP perspective or not, it attaches u to the character for longer and u always have something to work towards. If u think u might have a short attention span, eve is really, really, not for u

u may not realize it yet, but cross training is quite a common phenomenon in eve. if u dnt want to cross train, thats fine u dnt have to, but u must accept the consequences that carries, whether they are in game mechanics or nerfs.

what would stop me putting all my attributes into memory and intelligence, skilling indy skills for the hell of it and then re-allocating my quickly trained SP's into other professions...oh look learning skills are back. So u think restricting SP's into the categories they are already invested into will help? what if i'm a miner, but mining was nerfed to hell and i want to run missions now. i've just been nerfed like ur cane, but i cant SP swap like u? hell no.
Quote:

It does not remove planning choice and consequence, you can still plan, choose and suffer from your skill choices, the only difference is you can now fix a mistake if you discover you've made one, rather then living with a gimped character for weeks or months.


allowing them to fix mistakes IS removing the penalty for making the mistake in the first place...did u even read that to urself after u wrote it? maybe when u make a mistake ur character SHOULD be gimped for weeks or months.

eve is difficult, complex and unforgiving, and thats just the way i like it. it separates those who are good at what they do and can do things well first time or learn from their mistakes, from cretins who blunder their way through games and rely on soft mechanics to keep them competitive.

so eve knocked u back? that sucks, it happens. learn from it and become better for it

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#32 - 2013-01-13 01:55:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
There is no real penalty for making a mistake while skill training. You just train another skill. or retrain. yea it takes you longer but us vets are training 40 day + skills.

There is no need to make a new player who is trying to figure out the game go through waiting more time to fix a skill. It's a damn skill. I mean really. Eve looses a lot of new players because the skill system is far to unforgiving. The game is unforgiving enough give the new people a break.

You all are making a huge deal out of nothing.


You all made the same huge fuss and used the same argument's and it'll destroy Eve doomsday prophecies when I proposed the Attribute reset/respec. (I proposed this skill respec in the same post then also).

"CCP added the Attribute respec but left this skill one out at that point in time. I would guess because not enough people would be effected by the current changes in order to qualify for it. However in today's game, vastly more people are effected and a vast number of newer players (and older ones) would benefit from it."


Guess what? eve is exactly the same as it was, it's just more user friendly now Tippia (I think it was her anyway long time ago so I might be wrong) used the same damn argument against it as shes using against this. She was wrong then also. and many of the same points being brought up about this, were brought up about the attributes one, all of which were proven to be completely inaccurate and wholly false suppositions.



Nay sayers and doomsday profits said the world would end in 1919, 1944, 1966, 1999, 2011 and December 21'st 2012....

It's now January 12'th 2013....

People simply don't like change.

Get the point?


People have said Eve will end after every change is implemented which remotely changes anything about the way the game works or makes something a tad easier.

It hasn't died yet and according to the stats has only gotten bigger.


On another note, complexity, and challenge is good, Consequences for your decisions is good, However there is such a thing as too complex, and too many consequences for simple problems.

Its one of the reason Eve isn't bigger, the learning curve is far to steep. And honestly Id rather have more "real" people, then a game full of elitest jackasses who do their damnedest to scare off new players.

So even if this change made people leave, it would be the elitest who left, Awsome, there are 10 more noobs waiting to take your place now that the learning curve is slightly less demanding.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2013-01-13 02:09:46 UTC
Given how battlecruisers are such a common ship type the negative feedback over changes was not entirely unexpected, any change at all will be seen as a nerf. Just look at the Harb loses a turret and gets "OMG UNDERPOWERED SHIP TAKES DAMAGE NERF" before they even realize the damage actually went up with one less gun and therefore costs less cap as well.

The ships that did take nerfs have their nerfs exaggerated to the extreme. The Cane I find is the biggest offender. All it lost (gained) was 2% mass and one utility high and some cap. So basically you lost the one slot that made the least difference to the ships viability (if you read the dev blog a few months ago about battlecruisers this move should have been expected anyway) and gained 2% mass. If you would have preferred it lose a mid, low or double bonused turret high (lolwhut) then please elaborate. I'm really tired of hearing about how the Cane is now unflyable. Your fittings were not even adjusted at all and with one less neut to fit that should help a lot with the grid it lost last patch.

Saying you need your skillpoints back before the ships are even live on the test server is a knee-jerk reaction so strong it feels like you're trying to see if you can snap your knee backward to kick yourself in the forehead and I would deny it on that basis alone. Tippia did nicely sum up the other reasons why it shouldn't happen so I won't repeat them. I should add that I have over 65 million SP and I spent some of them poorly. If you gave me all my points back you won't catch up the best you could ever do is equal me in my chosen ships.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#34 - 2013-01-13 02:17:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
Given how battlecruisers are such a common ship type the negative feedback over changes was not entirely unexpected, any change at all will be seen as a nerf. Just look at the Harb loses a turret and gets "OMG UNDERPOWERED SHIP TAKES DAMAGE NERF" before they even realize the damage actually went up with one less gun and therefore costs less cap as well.

The ships that did take nerfs have their nerfs exaggerated to the extreme. The Cane I find is the biggest offender. All it lost (gained) was 2% mass and one utility high and some cap. So basically you lost the one slot that made the least difference to the ships viability (if you read the dev blog a few months ago about battlecruisers this move should have been expected anyway) and gained 2% mass. If you would have preferred it lose a mid, low or double bonused turret high (lolwhut) then please elaborate. I'm really tired of hearing about how the Cane is now unflyable. Your fittings were not even adjusted at all and with one less neut to fit that should help a lot with the grid it lost last patch.

Saying you need your skillpoints back before the ships are even live on the test server is a knee-jerk reaction so strong it feels like you're trying to see if you can snap your knee backward to kick yourself in the forehead and I would deny it on that basis alone. Tippia did nicely sum up the other reasons why it shouldn't happen so I won't repeat them. I should add that I have over 65 million SP and I spent some of them poorly. If you gave me all my points back you won't catch up the best you could ever do is equal me in my chosen ships.



Actually, this is the second patch in a row they have nerfed the cane. Last patch they reduced it CPU and its powergrid, making it impossible to fit the 6 Vulcan 2's 2 nuets and its tank + the midslot utilities.

Now they are removeing the highslot, increseing its mass (which is completely counter to the cane being the fastest BC in its description) and reducing its shields, its armor and its hull.

* That highslot they are removing is a key element in the canes DPS some player used 6 vulcans and 2 heavy M's other used 2 Hams in that slot, Most used 2 Neuts. So yes this is a serious game changing play which cripples the effectiveness of the ship itself and makes it a substandard BC. (Unless they intend to increas the damage of its tuirrets liek they did the harbi, which they do not.

So the cane is losing DPS, and or Utility which every single cane pilot takes advantage of and uses explicitly to make the cane the great ship that it is.
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2013-01-13 02:27:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
I agree with the OP. When the PLAYER makes a decision, then the player should face the consequences. But when CCP makes a decision, the player should not suffer. This is not a concept that the OP made up himself. This is CCP's own fundamental philosophy regarding this game, that of "forging your own destiny" and "living by your own decisions" etc. that they advertise. When CCP pulls the rug out from under you, they are forging your destiny, not you, and they are being inconsistent when they do that and give you no way to compensate in response.

Sure, CCP has the legal right to do so, and sure, it's possible to adapt. But that's not the point. This isn't a courtroom. Nobody is suing CCP here... This is a game design forum. We are here to discuss ways to make the game as fun as it can be. And being forced to get set back by months and adapt to something that was outside your control, although tolerable, is generally not fun.







However, the original suggestion of simply being able to reallocate anything in response to CCP changes is way too overpowered. If this were implemented, it should be constrained to those specific skills that are influenced by the changes that CCP makes.

For instance, if CCP nerfs missile damage, then players should be given the opportunity to liquidate their missile-related skills and spend those skillpoints elsewhere. But ONLY missile skills. There's no good reason why you should be allowed to reallocate anything other than those in response to a nerfing of missiles.

It should also only be an option to do so for a short period of time immediately after the update is rolled out. Like, a week or so. Then the window closes and you can't do it anymore.
Luc Chastot
#36 - 2013-01-13 03:14:04 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
I would enjoy having the ability to reallocate the OP's skillpoints.


I think he needs a remap for Intelligence.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#37 - 2013-01-13 04:42:59 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I find it amusing when an individual points out the logicality and validity of a suggestion or of an argument or proves why it needs to be implemented, individuals suddenly resort to telling them to stop whining.

I have no need for a skill respec I fly every ship in the game. (just about).


However I can not say that I would not enjoy one and take advantage of it, because I would. and I know for a fact every single nay sayer on here would also. They would find a reason to eventually.


I wouldn't. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#38 - 2013-01-13 04:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

Actually, this is the second patch in a row they have nerfed the cane. Last patch they reduced it CPU and its powergrid, making it impossible to fit the 6 Vulcan 2's 2 nuets and its tank + the midslot utilities.

Now they are removeing the highslot, increseing its mass (which is completely counter to the cane being the fastest BC in its description) and reducing its shields, its armor and its hull.

* That highslot they are removing is a key element in the canes DPS some player used 6 vulcans and 2 heavy M's other used 2 Hams in that slot, Most used 2 Neuts. So yes this is a serious game changing play which cripples the effectiveness of the ship itself and makes it a substandard BC. (Unless they intend to increas the damage of its tuirrets liek they did the harbi, which they do not.

So the cane is losing DPS, and or Utility which every single cane pilot takes advantage of and uses explicitly to make the cane the great ship that it is.


If you think that the Cane is now somehow a substandard BC you are seriously smoking crack.

-Liang

Ed: Looking at the Cane "nerf" I can only conclude that removing the high slot effectively takes the ship back to what it used to be. I'm looking at a fit right now that should get over 800 DPS with all the usual amenities like dual TE and 50k EHP. I don't see what you're complaining about.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#39 - 2013-01-13 07:27:04 UTC
No. GTFO. GB2WoW. Door's that way ->
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2013-01-13 08:12:13 UTC
Paikis wrote:
No. GTFO. GB2WoW. Door's that way ->


WoW lets you reallocate skills willy nilly, pretty much, just because you were dumb and made a bad choice and feel bad.

This thread isn't about asking for a way to fix our own mistakes. We shouldn't have one of those. It's about a way to fix problems that CCP lays upon us without our control.

If CCP nerfs missiles, for instance, then (for a reasonable cost, perhaps), you should have the option for a brief period of time to reallocate your skillpoints that you spent on missile skills, and missile skills alone.



As long as you're only allowed to rellocate the specific skills that are affected by a nerf, it's not coddling us at all. Instead, it would basically amount to CCP owning up the consequences of its own balancing mistakes, instead of unfairly inflicting them upon users at random. How is it a bad thing for CCP to apply a similar philosophy to itself as it advertises to its players ("face the consequences of your own choices")?