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"Eve is a game driven by consequences for actions." Not if you're into suicide ganking
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#141 - 2011-10-24 15:32:59 UTC
ahh some noname pet in a renter alliance, nice to meet you

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2011-10-24 15:47:32 UTC
I have never been ganked despite moving substantial value around in hisec for almsot 2 years now. I put 5 minutes of thought into it and figured out how to make myself unattractive to gankers (this is what I would call playing the game).

This, of course, doesn't control for people ganking out of a reckless thirst for destruction, but these are so rare and so widely announced when organized (and therefore easily avoidable) that I honestly do not see the issue. If I ever was unlucky enough to "win" the unforseeable and unavoidable gank lottery, I would just laugh it off.
Rocky Deadshot
In The Goo
EVE Trade Alliance
#143 - 2011-10-24 15:47:40 UTC
I think the biggest issue that people are having is the relative cost of exhumers, how little they actually make, and how easy they are to kill.

With all the new stuff being brought in with the expansion... i expect mineral prices to go up, CCP could introduce a new method of mining that allows miners to use an UI to micromanage laser effeciency.

*THINKING*

*Remembers the original PI.

oh god no... ignore that

how about allow people to mine ice in a command ship?
Generals4
#144 - 2011-10-24 15:49:25 UTC
Roadkill Rhino wrote:
"Eve is a game driven by consequences for actions."

Yet the suicide gankers have no consequence. Being destroyed yet refunded for your losses is not a consequence of any meaning.

Let's look at it this way, people are able to fill freighters up with battleships and modules, pick an area, go there and gank the hell out of the miners there, all they need is a ganking character and character to give it the ship. That people can do this just goes to show that EVE is a game of consequences, but only if you're a miner.

Why do threads like this get so big? Because half the people posting are gankers who don't want their insurance payout taken away. They preach lines like "EVE is hardcore" "You're not safe anywhere, always at risk" But that's not true, there is a group of people who take no risk atall, and that is the gankers, there is no risk in what they do, they break even or sometimes profit, they risk nothing to do a suicide gank. They will die, they know this, they also know that insurance will pay the bill.

Insurance payout for suicide ganking is a really stupid feature.


There are consequences to it. It's called "sec status" hit. It's the only reason why i haven't turned to the darkside yet. You can't imagine how much i want to discoball jita but i don't want to farm sec status. Boring as hell.

_-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. _
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2011-10-24 15:53:36 UTC
If people want to make the argument that ganking is just the final slap in the face heaped upon the mountain terribleness that is hisec mining, that is soemthing I can get behind and sympathize with. Let's, then, spend our effort and tears on making mining less awful, and maybe miners won't mind the occasional embargo or random gank as much.
Tanya Fox
Doomheim
#146 - 2011-10-24 15:56:39 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
when I fly my hauler blind into a gatecamp and get owned by bubbles and interceptors, this is evidence of a game inbalance in favor of the gankers: you see, their superior organization, numbers, and tactics mean the game is unfair because my incompetence did not beat all three of those




Bubbles in high-sec, yeah right :P

Talking about high-sec ganking not low sec pirating or even 0.0 for that matter.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#147 - 2011-10-24 15:58:58 UTC
Rocky Deadshot wrote:
I think the biggest issue that people are having is the relative cost of exhumers, how little they actually make, and how easy they are to kill.
Whether it's an issue or not depends on whether they are able to earn back that cost between ganks. How much do they earn, net, after all costs are included?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#148 - 2011-10-24 15:59:15 UTC
Tanya Fox wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
when I fly my hauler blind into a gatecamp and get owned by bubbles and interceptors, this is evidence of a game inbalance in favor of the gankers: you see, their superior organization, numbers, and tactics mean the game is unfair because my incompetence did not beat all three of those




Bubbles in high-sec, yeah right :P

Talking about high-sec ganking not low sec pirating or even 0.0 for that matter.


i don't care what you're talking about your basic argument is "i should be able to win by default even against superior numbers, tactics, and organization" its a fundamentally moronic position

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#149 - 2011-10-24 16:01:43 UTC
ganking has consequences, and we are intelligent and organized enough to work around those

you, on the other hand, are incompetent, worthless, and either a bot or a human roleplaying a bot and are unable to take basic precautions such as: 'get out of the target zone' 'pay attention' 'don't sacrifice your entire tank for mining efficency' 'have friends'

basically you want to be invulnerable even while you're fundamentally dumber and less reactive than a botting script

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Tanya Fox
Doomheim
#150 - 2011-10-24 16:08:26 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Tanya Fox wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
when I fly my hauler blind into a gatecamp and get owned by bubbles and interceptors, this is evidence of a game inbalance in favor of the gankers: you see, their superior organization, numbers, and tactics mean the game is unfair because my incompetence did not beat all three of those




Bubbles in high-sec, yeah right :P

Talking about high-sec ganking not low sec pirating or even 0.0 for that matter.


i don't care what you're talking about your basic argument is "i should be able to win by default even against superior numbers, tactics, and organization" its a fundamentally moronic position





You're talking about something totally different from the op.

The op is refering to high-sec gankers and insurance payout,


It's obvious that a larger group is likely to win, unless it's a large group of shuttles. But that's not the issue of the thread.
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2011-10-24 16:11:50 UTC
Weaselior has captured the main issue. Even if you don't agree with his conclusion, the terms in which he is framing the issue is the correct way to approach it. If you can convincingly argue that the effort, innovation, organization, etc required by the ganker is too low relative to the options availabe to counter ganking (avoiding being ganked), then you will have a good chance that CCP and the rest of the community will take you seriously. I have yet to see such an argument, though I am definitely open to the possibility and would actually like to see it happen just to watch Goons cry (not that I dislike Goons, but I like anyone's crying more than I like them).
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#152 - 2011-10-24 16:14:43 UTC
Tanya Fox wrote:

It's obvious that a larger group is likely to win, unless it's a large group of shuttles. But that's not the issue of the thread.


see I was responding to something this idiot posted:

Tanya Fox wrote:

Ganking is a bit one sided, they're usually an organised group they kill the target, don't care if their ships are destroyed because they get the insurance and they have a pick-up person ready to loot the wreaks. So the gankers get the loot plus insurance and the laugh, the guy getting ganked just gets the insurance which is nothing to his/her loses. Loses depending what kind of target.

Don't know about you but it seems one sided to me.


wherein the poster of this abortion of an argument argued that because an organized group can do something to a lone person, it is one-sided in favor of the side that requires an organized group because they have organization

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Rocky Deadshot
In The Goo
EVE Trade Alliance
#153 - 2011-10-24 16:15:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Rocky Deadshot
Tippia wrote:
Rocky Deadshot wrote:
I think the biggest issue that people are having is the relative cost of exhumers, how little they actually make, and how easy they are to kill.
Whether it's an issue or not depends on whether they are able to earn back that cost between ganks. How much do they earn, net, after all costs are included?


Off the top of my head its to the order of 20+hrs (if ice mining) and about 15+hrs (for mining), depending on skills, fit, and a few other parameters.
Doesn't seem like much.... but consider this... I can buy and fit a drake and pay it off doing lvl4 missions in about 2hrs. I can buy and pay of a scimitar in 2hrs doing incursions....
In fact... in 15hrs of doing incursions i can buy a loki (1bil isk fit) and 2hulks.

Both the missions and the incursion fits are inherently safer due to constantly moving, as well as, they all are harder to kill. And trust me after awhile of running vanguards, you begin to feel like your roleplaying a bot.

It would be one thing if the ship required to gank a hulk/mack required about the same amount of isk as those ships... but they dont, goons figured out the perfect formula for miner tears. This is specifically for mining... gankers should be able to take down those 2bil faction fit bs without spending that much. But for mining... the ship is being taken down by a single pilot most times... sometimes 2... and they have no hope of surviving. The fact of the matter is that Exhumers can't tank.. by design, is that fair? idk.

Maybe a new set of exhumer like ships that are similar, lower yield, but have the ability to tank ... at least more than the current ones is the path we should take.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#154 - 2011-10-24 16:16:02 UTC
plus the whining about insurance is fairly misplaced as the loss on a battleship even post-insurance, which I throw at things willy-nilly when it's the tool for the job, is greater than the loss on an uninsured brutix

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#155 - 2011-10-24 16:17:14 UTC
Rocky Deadshot wrote:
The fact of the matter is that Exhumers can't tank.. by design, is that fair? idk.

Maybe a new set of exhumer like ships that are similar, lower yield, but have the ability to tank ... at least more than the current ones.


if you simply must mine and can't survive in eve without mining mine with a rokh

simply stay out of our ice belts

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Tanya Fox
Doomheim
#156 - 2011-10-24 16:19:00 UTC
Elise DarkStar wrote:
Weaselior has captured the main issue. Even if you don't agree with his conclusion, the terms in which he is framing the issue is the correct way to approach it. If you can convincingly argue that the effort, innovation, organization, etc required by the ganker is too low relative to the options availabe to counter ganking (avoiding being ganked), then you will have a good chance that CCP and the rest of the community will take you seriously. I have yet to see such an argument, though I am definitely open to the possibility and would actually like to see it happen just to watch Goons cry (not that I dislike Goons, but I like anyone's crying more than I like them).




High sec gate camp with a pick-up or two and people scanning in trade hub systems, is not that highly organised. More like a spider sat in a web with a few lookout giving a heads-up when something interesting is coming their way.


Now if they had to get off their butts and actually go looking for their targets then I might be a little bit impressed.
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2011-10-24 16:22:23 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
plus the whining about insurance is fairly misplaced as the loss on a battleship even post-insurance, which I throw at things willy-nilly when it's the tool for the job, is greater than the loss on an uninsured brutix


Whining about insurance is really counterproductive, as the whiners may even get it as their one chance at a "fix", and then they'll be that much more enraged when it actually doesn't make a lick of difference. My guess is that you'd have more people ganking for the sheer joy as a statement against hisec whining, which is much harder to counter than those who gank for profit.
Rocky Deadshot
In The Goo
EVE Trade Alliance
#158 - 2011-10-24 16:22:36 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Rocky Deadshot wrote:
The fact of the matter is that Exhumers can't tank.. by design, is that fair? idk.

Maybe a new set of exhumer like ships that are similar, lower yield, but have the ability to tank ... at least more than the current ones.


if you simply must mine and can't survive in eve without mining mine with a rokh

simply stay out of our ice belts


I would rather jet can mine in a bantum that mine ice. P
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#159 - 2011-10-24 16:22:39 UTC
Tanya Fox wrote:


High sec gate camp with a pick-up or two and people scanning in trade hub systems, is not that highly organised. More like a spider sat in a web with a few lookout giving a heads-up when something interesting is coming their way.


Now if they had to get off their butts and actually go looking for their targets then I might be a little bit impressed.


you mean a 16+ person camp (for freighter killing), actively scanning for people who failed to follow a basic mathmatical formula autopiloting to jita?

yes, that's a real lack of organization compared to the autopiloting guy

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Citizen Smif
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2011-10-24 16:22:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Citizen Smif
Suddenly Boom wrote:
Maybe not my main, but how is this? Check my killboard stats to see how how ridiculously easy suicide ganking is.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Suddenly+Boom&page=1#kills

Also http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Shocking+Awe

Over 22 billion isk in damages on the second one alone, i made profit on this ordeal, and there was no risk to me. I also ruined a lot of peoples day. How is that for a messed up game mechanic?


I looked throught that KB... The miners that got killed were ******* ********. Everyone knows that at the moment there's a lot of suicide ganking going on towards miners (especially mackinaws in gallente space) yet these people don't adapt their tactics.. Fit a ******* tank lol.. Or atleast be facing something you can warp to quickly and keep an eye out for suspicious behaviour. Christ.. PvP players adapt there tactics all the time, why can't the miners do that as well?

The truth is all of you miners just want to be exempt from risk. You want an absolutely risk-free safe way of generating ISK, this isn't eve so gtfo. Lol i never thought i'd be someone who would post one of these comments but i'm getting so sick of it now.. I'm not going to lie: I think miners are a pathetic waste of time. All they do is sit there and just endlessly watch their lasers shoot at an inaminate rock. For what? You dont PvP, you dont PvE and whenever you encounter either of those things you ***** and moan. What would your ideal game be? lol..

("part-time" miners are exempt from my criticism there ^^ Big smile)

Btw suicide ganking isn't risk free.. You don't make 0 losses for losing a ship lol. Insurance pay-outs are at the mineral cost of the hull, not the market price. I wouldn't mind it if the insurance mechanics were changed for high sec ganking (i'm not a suicide ganker lol) but seriously stop twisting the facts to fit your pathetic care-bear arguments.

This thread has made me decide i'm going to go suicide ganking tonight, just for the lulz.