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Research on big alliance highend shipconsumption
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Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
#1 - 2013-01-06 21:35:48 UTC
Hello fellow forumdwellers! I dont really know where to research this sort of thing if not here so here it goes.

I was thinking of starting up a T2 BS/BC production. Possibly on two alts so 20 slots. Thing is, I dont really know anything of big alliance inner workings. Is there any real consumption of T2 BS/BCs to justify presenting a deal that sounds something like this (just speculation here so plz dont pay attention to details:

make an order of a minimum of 3 Marauders/Black ops (any combo and up to 20 in total). Order 3 and pay market price-20% of market profit. Order 5, same thing but with 30% of market profit, discound. Order 10 and receive 50% of market profit, discount.

So normally the buyer should receive (including this for a discount relative to totall cost measure):


  • about 60-80mil discount for buying 3 ships. Totall cost of about 2640 mil.



  • about 165-210 mil discount for buying 5 ships. Totall cost of about 4335 mil.



  • about 550-750mil discount for buying 10 ships. Totall cost of about 8450 mil.


This with a manufacturing delay of about 3 days. Wont be delivering though (so naturaly, this is my main concern)

Would something like that (ofc with some polishing) be interesting to big alliances. And could I depend on getting orders to fill or almost fill my slots all all times.
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-01-06 22:43:15 UTC
Nad'x Hapax wrote:

I was thinking of starting up a T2 BS/BC production. Possibly on two alts so 20 slots. Thing is, I dont really know anything of big alliance inner workings. Is there any real consumption of T2 BS/BCs to justify presenting a deal that sounds something like this (just speculation here so plz dont pay attention to details:


Not sure what your plans are with the setup but 2 accounts really arn't enough to utilize a POS which you need to do to cover the costs of fuel per month. You would be better off training the additional characters on each account to do basic research (adv labs III + science 5 = 8 days). So with around 16 days training time you can increase your number of slots an additional 36 slots.

You will also want at the very least 2 characters with 9 search slots, but 4 would be best. You would be surprised by the number of manufacturing slots needed for all the mats required in T2 manufacturing.

But that being said, most of the medium and large alliances need much higher volumes then what you're looking to offer. Look at some of the largest alliances and you'll see the numbers of ships these guys go though. To compete with their suppliers or to even be considered you would need to be able to complete much larger volumes, as isk isn't the issue with these guys, its the logistics that is the problem. Buying up bulk items at trade hub prices isn't nearly as big of a problem as having to fly around collecting ships bought for cheap. There for you're best bet is to look at large numbers. A few years ago when in an alliance I brought up the idea of manufacturing items for the alliance and was told if I couldn't supply 50 of a ship based on their fleet doctrine it wasn't worth their time.

Also remember many of these larger alliances have all the capabilities of doing massive logistics moves, have members with jump freighters, or are setup for manufacturing in their sov, so you need to find a good position as a middle man.


So increased volumes of products, and the ability to move the items to where they are needed is more important then cheaper prices.




Nad'x Hapax wrote:

make an order of a minimum of 3 Marauders/Black ops (any combo and up to 20 in total). Order 3 and pay market price-20% of market profit. Order 5, same thing but with 30% of market profit, discound. Order 10 and receive 50% of market profit, discount.


I'm not sure what your discount price vs sell price is, but generally if you're making less then what you could sell the mats or ships at trade hub sell orders then its not worth doing. As long as you're close to trade hub prices and offer the convince of locating the items at specific systems (low, null, hs near a staging system, etc) you can charge a pretty descent price without having to offer big discounts. Remember you want to make isk more then you want to do alot of work.


Nad'x Hapax wrote:

Would something like that (ofc with some polishing) be interesting to big alliances. And could I depend on getting orders to fill or almost fill my slots all all times.


You will need to invest in several more characters, a large collection of BPO's and have a sizable wallet to get involved in any medium to large alliances. There are all ready players with literally hundreds of characters doing exactly what you are doing that you would be competing with. I'm not saying it's not worth trying, or that you cannot do it, but unless you're capable of meeting their high demand you'll just get turned down.


And finally, I would suggest joining the bulk trade mailing list and try out your luck doing bulk sales there (just make sure to read AND follow the rules). If you can make good isk with that move on to some smaller or more active alliances who may not be as established to handle all of their manufacturing and logistic needs.

I would suggest that until you are capable of supplying at least 50+ ships per week (and making a profit) it would be best to hold off until then.
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
#3 - 2013-01-06 23:57:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Nad'x Hapax
Styth spiting wrote:
Nad'x Hapax wrote:

I was thinking of starting up a T2 BS/BC production. Possibly on two alts so 20 slots. Thing is, I dont really know anything of big alliance inner workings. Is there any real consumption of T2 BS/BCs to justify presenting a deal that sounds something like this (just speculation here so plz dont pay attention to details:


Not sure what your plans are with the setup but 2 accounts really arn't enough to utilize a POS which you need to do to cover the costs of fuel per month. You would be better off training the additional characters on each account to do basic research (adv labs III + science 5 = 8 days). So with around 16 days training time you can increase your number of slots an additional 36 slots.

You will also want at the very least 2 characters with 9 search slots, but 4 would be best. You would be surprised by the number of manufacturing slots needed for all the mats required in T2 manufacturing.

But that being said, most of the medium and large alliances need much higher volumes then what you're looking to offer. Look at some of the largest alliances and you'll see the numbers of ships these guys go though. To compete with their suppliers or to even be considered you would need to be able to complete much larger volumes, as isk isn't the issue with these guys, its the logistics that is the problem. Buying up bulk items at trade hub prices isn't nearly as big of a problem as having to fly around collecting ships bought for cheap. There for you're best bet is to look at large numbers. A few years ago when in an alliance I brought up the idea of manufacturing items for the alliance and was told if I couldn't supply 50 of a ship based on their fleet doctrine it wasn't worth their time.

Also remember many of these larger alliances have all the capabilities of doing massive logistics moves, have members with jump freighters, or are setup for manufacturing in their sov, so you need to find a good position as a middle man.


So increased volumes of products, and the ability to move the items to where they are needed is more important then cheaper prices.




Nad'x Hapax wrote:

make an order of a minimum of 3 Marauders/Black ops (any combo and up to 20 in total). Order 3 and pay market price-20% of market profit. Order 5, same thing but with 30% of market profit, discound. Order 10 and receive 50% of market profit, discount.


I'm not sure what your discount price vs sell price is, but generally if you're making less then what you could sell the mats or ships at trade hub sell orders then its not worth doing. As long as you're close to trade hub prices and offer the convince of locating the items at specific systems (low, null, hs near a staging system, etc) you can charge a pretty descent price without having to offer big discounts. Remember you want to make isk more then you want to do alot of work.


Nad'x Hapax wrote:

Would something like that (ofc with some polishing) be interesting to big alliances. And could I depend on getting orders to fill or almost fill my slots all all times.


You will need to invest in several more characters, a large collection of BPO's and have a sizable wallet to get involved in any medium to large alliances. There are all ready players with literally hundreds of characters doing exactly what you are doing that you would be competing with. I'm not saying it's not worth trying, or that you cannot do it, but unless you're capable of meeting their high demand you'll just get turned down.


And finally, I would suggest joining the bulk trade mailing list and try out your luck doing bulk sales there (just make sure to read AND follow the rules). If you can make good isk with that move on to some smaller or more active alliances who may not be as established to handle all of their manufacturing and logistic needs.

I would suggest that until you are capable of supplying at least 50+ ships per week (and making a profit) it would be best to hold off until then.



So in the name of not sharing ideas, I say ty (Paranoid? I guess so)! 50 ships? Piece of cake :P

Now to solve the log issue
Razor Rocker
Super Mother Fan Club
#4 - 2013-01-07 04:30:35 UTC
Had a really great reply typed up, but then the forum decided to eat it.

So here are the bullet points:

  1. No 0.0 alliance (that i know of) uses a T2 BC or BS doctrine so don't invest in their production

  2. Check alliance Kbs to find out what ships they use and what quantity - You'll most likely find a lot of T1 ships with T2 fittings (drakes, rokhs, canes, naga, nado ect), beyond that a lot of T2 cruisers and dictors

  3. Don't sell to alliances, sell to resellers (alliance grunts with JFs that buy in Jita and sell in deployment systems) - Find them via public contracts for fitted ships in deployment areas

  4. Recommend writing a thread in the Sell section of forum stating what you produce, quantity and prices (if you have stock, then bulk order mailing list works too)

  5. Then write a thread in Want section stating you want to network with a reseller



In the end, it may be more profitable to simply sell in a trade hub. But if you don't want to play the 0.01 ISK wars then this could work. If that is the case, then bulk order mailing list works great too.

Cheers,

-Razor
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
#5 - 2013-01-07 08:42:48 UTC
Razor Rocker wrote:
Had a really great reply typed up, but then the forum decided to eat it.

So here are the bullet points:

  1. No 0.0 alliance (that i know of) uses a T2 BC or BS doctrine so don't invest in their production

  2. Check alliance Kbs to find out what ships they use and what quantity - You'll most likely find a lot of T1 ships with T2 fittings (drakes, rokhs, canes, naga, nado ect), beyond that a lot of T2 cruisers and dictors

  3. Don't sell to alliances, sell to resellers (alliance grunts with JFs that buy in Jita and sell in deployment systems) - Find them via public contracts for fitted ships in deployment areas

  4. Recommend writing a thread in the Sell section of forum stating what you produce, quantity and prices (if you have stock, then bulk order mailing list works too)

  5. Then write a thread in Want section stating you want to network with a reseller



In the end, it may be more profitable to simply sell in a trade hub. But if you don't want to play the 0.01 ISK wars then this could work. If that is the case, then bulk order mailing list works great too.

Cheers,

-Razor


Ok so what u are saying is that I probably wont get that many orders for 3+ Marauders/Black ops from alliances but its possible to get it from resellers? Interesting info. In that case Ill do some calculating and come up with more precise numbers. Ty
Zifrian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-01-07 12:57:36 UTC
Granted I'm in only one part of null sec but I can count the number of T2 BS I've seen on one hand...and one is in my hanger.

Probably better to go with T2 cruisers.

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Razor Rocker
Super Mother Fan Club
#7 - 2013-01-07 13:24:53 UTC
Nad'x Hapax wrote:
Razor Rocker wrote:
Had a really great reply typed up, but then the forum decided to eat it.

So here are the bullet points:

  1. No 0.0 alliance (that i know of) uses a T2 BC or BS doctrine so don't invest in their production

  2. Check alliance Kbs to find out what ships they use and what quantity - You'll most likely find a lot of T1 ships with T2 fittings (drakes, rokhs, canes, naga, nado ect), beyond that a lot of T2 cruisers and dictors

  3. Don't sell to alliances, sell to resellers (alliance grunts with JFs that buy in Jita and sell in deployment systems) - Find them via public contracts for fitted ships in deployment areas

  4. Recommend writing a thread in the Sell section of forum stating what you produce, quantity and prices (if you have stock, then bulk order mailing list works too)

  5. Then write a thread in Want section stating you want to network with a reseller



In the end, it may be more profitable to simply sell in a trade hub. But if you don't want to play the 0.01 ISK wars then this could work. If that is the case, then bulk order mailing list works great too.

Cheers,

-Razor


Ok so what u are saying is that I probably wont get that many orders for 3+ Marauders/Black ops from alliances but its possible to get it from resellers? Interesting info. In that case Ill do some calculating and come up with more precise numbers. Ty



No. I'm saying you wont sell any BO/marauders. Resellers bring what is needed by the highest volume of people, and those are fleet fit pvp ships. If you want to know what these fits are, check out the KB for large battles. Most of the ships for each alliance will be fit the same. These are the fittings for that doctrine. No alliance in existence has ever used a Marauder doctrine, and the few who use Black ops, don't lose them very often.

Don't expect to sell any T2 BS, though I'd expect maybe 1-5 T2 BC a month (tops, and even then it may be pushing it).

You can easily sell 50 Sabres or 20 Huginns/scimitars though. And probably a few oneiros, rapiers, and lachesis.
Solotta Erquilenne
#8 - 2013-01-07 15:15:44 UTC
Nad'x Hapax wrote:

Ok so what u are saying is that I probably wont get that many orders for 3+ Marauders/Black ops from alliances but its possible to get it from resellers? Interesting info. In that case Ill do some calculating and come up with more precise numbers. Ty


lol.
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
#9 - 2013-01-07 16:13:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Nad'x Hapax
Quote:
lol.


So me being tired and overworked gets u to take the time to insult me? Get the balls to do that to ppl IRL plz. Or go play on a freeway of my choice! U decide!
Skorpynekomimi
#10 - 2013-01-07 16:24:44 UTC
Stick with bulk T1 ships, if you want to build bigger things. I read a post about a big nullsec fleet battle the other day, and they mentioned rokhs, armageddons, and maelstroms as major subcaps. Canes as well.
Otherwise, for T2 stuff, frigates. Tackle, covops, interdictors, recon.

Modules are also a thing. They probably go through vast amounts of them, far more than hulls.

Economic PVP