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Crew size changes

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Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-01-04 05:47:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Maire Gheren
Back when, I recall reading about how it was a reasonable thing to pilot frigates in order to not endanger the larger crews needed for bigger ships, and that "Every ship bigger than a frigate needs a crew".

Today, someone has started an argument by noting that the current canon (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines) declares that frigates require crews, and that anyone who wanted to fly without endangering a crew of innocents was therefore just as deluded as the "I sit at a bridge" crowd. For some people, this means that it will be difficult to justify undocking in anything larger than a shuttle based on the entire RP justification of "I fly frigates so that i'm the only one risking my neck".

The F-22A has a whole lot of 'module equivalent' weapons and toys in it, and is a single-seat aircraft. It is a close equivalency to a frigate in a lot of ways.

Just the other day, I was reading one of the official fiction pieces in which one of the characters, an NPC, was piloting an Atron - a Tech 1 frigate - around alone. This is in defiance of the stated crew requirements - "2-10", even in a Gallente ship which is at the low end, would not explain a scientist piloting a frigate and doing scanning work alone.

Is there some particular reason why anyone who is not inclined to get a crew, even a very small one, killed has had the option of being a frigate pilot removed from them, in spite of at least some canon? Would it be possible to have that number reconsidered for the sake of the more humanitarian and antisocial of capsuleers?
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#2 - 2013-01-04 10:14:02 UTC
Keep in mind those are rough guidelines, not hard and fast numbers. An Atron is a smaller frigate than, say, an Incursus and might need less crew to pilot capably. If you want to RP that the capsuleer is the only person inside a frigate, no one should reasonably say you are wrong.

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Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#3 - 2013-01-04 12:15:01 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
Keep in mind those are rough guidelines, not hard and fast numbers. An Atron is a smaller frigate than, say, an Incursus and might need less crew to pilot capably. If you want to RP that the capsuleer is the only person inside a frigate, no one should reasonably say you are wrong.


"I'm the only one on my ship" is how i justify being so terrible at Eve :)
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2013-01-04 16:40:19 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
An Atron is a smaller frigate than, say, an Incursus and might need less crew to pilot capably.
That's why I looked at the low end of the range, and the bottom end of the range still would not allow for the canon.
Quote:
If you want to RP that the capsuleer is the only person inside a frigate, no one should reasonably say you are wrong.
Which is what we thought, but were told very bluntly that we were simply wrong because the canon no longer allowed for even the *possibility* of a crew of zero. We were also told that we were being unreasonable in our desire to be unique snowflakes violating canon, when we were following canon previously. And honestly, when canon specifies that it is essentially impossible to fly a frigate without a crew, it does make the "unique snowflake" charge have enough weight to be a problem.

Zero is below even the lowest possible number sited for a small Gallente frigate, and I do not fly the smallest possible Gallente frigate. By the guidelines given, I would have trouble explaining a lack of crew to anyone who is at all strict with current canon. Amarr is listed as "Middle of the range" of 1-3 MINIMUM, not counting the capsuleer - Caldari and Minmatar ships are worse, and I am not an Impairor or Executioner pilot. That would peg me at a recommended minimum crew of 2 for an UNFITTED frigate, which means that I could probably get by with a crew of 1 if I didn't plan to DO anything, but since 1 is the bottom extreme, it is not unreasonable for people to tell me that I *need* to have that one overworked person. And according to our guidelines,
Quote:
Minimum Crew is the bare minimum number of personnel required to operate the vessel with only basic functions (i.e., assuming no modules fitted).
That means that if I want to do any high risk activity that requires me to put a crew at risk, I will need to endanger even more people.

This canon seems to have changed on us at some point, and it was actually a character point for a number of people, all of whom have a desire to not fly in the face of the world as written. It could explain why so many people avoid venturing out of high sec even in a frigate, I suppose. It makes a certain attribute of psychopathic behavior mandatory among capsuleers.

Maybe something closer to "Frigates, being descended from solo-fighters, can be operated with only the automation of the ship, so long as regular maintenance is performed at stations. For extended flights, a small crew of at least 1-3 to perform maintenance and organize ship cargo is advised."
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#5 - 2013-01-04 21:03:30 UTC
I'd also say crew requirments would be dependant upon the capsuleer's experience and what modules are fit to the ship. Remember, crew exist to maintain the bits of a ship that a capsuleer can't on his/her own. A better capsuleer should logically be better at keeping the ship together with less help. Additionally, if there are no guns, propulsion or tank mods on a ship, there is no need for the corresponding crews needed to work them.

As for frigates, I assume that a newer capsuleer would need some help working it, while a high-SP one would be able to manage things a bit better. Additionally, we know that drone technology and other automation can cut down on crew-requirments, and a capsuleer who is concerned about crew casualties can certainly invest in this. A bit of extra expense is easily RP'ed.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-01-04 21:08:21 UTC
Except that that isn't what the references say.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#7 - 2013-01-06 01:18:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
With drone's technology(i.e. rogue drones, sleepers with their components salvaged and studied and sold for years now, IA's..), we can assume that there are uncommon but plausible ways to reduce/negate the crew on a ship. Including that you will probably be unable to stay undocked for extended periods of time (days/hours depending of the nature of your activities) due to maintenance requirements.

A lore is not only about following the rules in their fullest, it can also be about knowing why and how things are what they are, to understand how you can create something new and personal (a character or something else) from all the stories available.

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Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2013-01-06 04:39:42 UTC
The problem is that these things actually are stated. If they are meant to be ignored, then why have them down? Anyone who is not in compliance with the canon is being a unique snowflake, and cannot expect to be given the respect of someone who is not ignoring the canon.

If the canon specifies concretely, as ours currently does, that "Frigates need crews", and do not state anything about automation options, then anyone with no crew in their frigate stands out. They clash and draw attention just as much as someone RPing in modern America who says something like "I'm 13 years old, I grew up in New York City, and I have a legal driving license with my correct age on it." It's a clashing statement that doesn't fit in with the world as written, and if it isn't even the defining feature of the character, then we are rapidly approaching the realm of catgirl vampire fox demon faeries.

If it's reasonable to automate a frigate, then all I ask is that the canon regarding frigates be adjusted to reflect that some capsuleers are able to automate their frigates with drones.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#9 - 2013-01-06 22:27:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
The minimum crew for frigates (capsuleers) is 1-3. Whoever is telling you that your just being unreasonable and wanting to be a 'unique snowflake' needs to look over the guidelines again. Single capsuleer piloted frigates are canon.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2013-01-06 22:59:39 UTC
Shuttles are crew 0. It is indicated that crew does not include the capsuleer themself. Also it is stated that that crew is for an unfitted frigate.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#11 - 2013-01-06 23:17:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
The anchor in his link is the notes, so I think that he was referring to the "notes" part of this page. Not the crew numbers.
What is being said is that typical racial ship designs are taking more or less in consideration the need for automated personal, because of the crew's availability in the four empires.

And this is exactly what I was trying to explain : you have to understand the why. Why frigates needs crew ? Because for the moment nobody had problems finding enough crew for a frigate. Just like crew requirements and crew importance are matching the availability of crew members respectively in the four empires.

Now to take a personal example, imagine you live in a wormhole. Ok, you can still bring people with you and make them live inside your control tower or your temperate planet (if you have one...) but you will soon find that this type of "ressource" is rarer than in the known-space. And you will want to keep these "ressources" for the cases when they are really needed. i.e. inside a dreadnought or something big, not for a little frigate.

Assuming that you have a control tower, you might as well have a laboratory to make research, improvements and invention on the blueprints you have. What stops you from slightly modifying your ships to reduce your crew needs ? What stops you from building a capsuleer-only frigate ? What stops you from trying to sell these rare products to the known-space market ?

And then suddenly, the possibility for you to have a crew-less frigate is plausible.

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Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-01-07 00:13:30 UTC
Right. Which is what I had wanted to say.. except that, again, that is not what the canon states, and so more than one person was grouched at for ignoring the canon, because the guidelines do not actually say that they allow for that.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#13 - 2013-01-07 00:29:10 UTC
Maire Gheren wrote:
Right. Which is what I had wanted to say.. except that, again, that is not what the canon states, and so more than one person was grouched at for ignoring the canon, because the guidelines do not actually say that they allow for that.


One bit of lore doesn't necessarily invalidate all possibilities and matters solely how you read it. To my knowledge, what is listed is simply crew requirements for your average, run of the mill, strait-off-the-line spaceship. I've seen nothing from CCP stating that there can be no modification nor progression in technology to allow for fewer crew or even crew-less ships (in the case of some frigates). Whoever is hassling you is nitpicking and your better off just ignoring them. Unless CCP comes out and says 'No, you MUST have a crew' your free to postulate all you want really and if someone doesn't like it then tough nuts, pointing to the crew limitations doesn't really make them right.

The posting of crew limits as of current can be seen for your average cap and non cap pilots. Not the end all to be all. Even the listing leaves room by stating these are 'without mods' which to me implies its possible to add in tech that would allow for more automation.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Kalanaja
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-01-07 03:31:41 UTC
Bear in mind also that information is slightly on the aged side. Like quite a few things that are in the wiki and evelopedia it's aged a bit.
Rogue Lawyer
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-01-07 22:28:02 UTC
Ships the size of Battleships require large amounts of crews, some more than others, a Domi for instance would think will have a lot less crew than say a Maelstrom, because as a drone boat it will be jam packed with automated systems, indeed Gallente would have large amounts of automated systems, as they are the drone masters. So it is within the bounds of reason to believe that they would use drones onboard.


Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-01-07 23:40:10 UTC
Yes, I agree with all these points, and if someone could copy them and paste them into the canon documentation, which as some have noted have been edited upward since they were first conceived, then this entire issue would be considered solved.
Saul Elsyn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-01-08 16:06:05 UTC
The most likely purpose for having a crew is for maintenance and other operations that can not be done without having someone physically digging through parts of the ship. Now... I'd hate to say it but this would mean that for ships operating in a wormhole, I'd say the likelihood of them having a larger crew is higher since they aren't spending most of their time docked in a station where people could do a quick look over and swap out broken circuit boards or whatever.

I tend to figure that for a ship meant to be capable of independent operation (frigates on up) that there's someone onboard to run general maintenance, but if you're only undocked for an hour or two at a time the need for such people is much less.

I remember someone observing once that the best way to think of it is that in the classic science fiction you have an engineering department and a bridge crew for a ship. The capsule replaces the bridge crew, but you'll still need an engineering department for when something breaks.

Imagine if what breaks is the connection between capsule and ship... talk about a nightmare. Maybe that's the reason for the 'socket closed' connection error I get sometimes.
Malception
StratsCo
Pretenders
#18 - 2013-01-09 18:19:49 UTC
Marie, it seems pretty obvious that you're set on adherring to canon pretty strictly. I can appreciate that since I also like my roleplaying to be 100% coherrent. What I don't understand is why you seem to fixated on getting canon changed rather than simply going with the status quo.

Why not simply hire some crew who acknowledge the risks of flying under the command of a capsuleer, pay them well and go about your business. Putting people at risk is not an alien concept to real life. Commanders expose their men to risk every day and they do so without being psychotic about it - risk is an acknowledged part of the job.

Why would it be any different in New Eden?
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-01-09 19:36:16 UTC
Because the canon on that point has actually changed? And because there is a difference between "this is risky" and "i'm planning on doing things that guarantee that my ship is going to be destroyed".
Alex Triton
Doomheim
#20 - 2013-01-10 03:11:19 UTC
Maire Gheren wrote:
Back when, I recall reading about how it was a reasonable thing to pilot frigates in order to not endanger the larger crews needed for bigger ships, and that "Every ship bigger than a frigate needs a crew".

Today, someone has started an argument by noting that the current canon (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines) declares that frigates require crews, and that anyone who wanted to fly without endangering a crew of innocents was therefore just as deluded as the "I sit at a bridge" crowd. For some people, this means that it will be difficult to justify undocking in anything larger than a shuttle based on the entire RP justification of "I fly frigates so that i'm the only one risking my neck".

The F-22A has a whole lot of 'module equivalent' weapons and toys in it, and is a single-seat aircraft. It is a close equivalency to a frigate in a lot of ways.


Where does all this assumption come from that frigates are the size of fighter jets? Most frigates range from 50 to 80 meters in length. That might be small in comparison to other eve ships, but in actuality thats rather huge. An F16 is about 17 meters in length and much smaller in all its other dimensions to boot. Frigates are ships, not fighters. They require small crews to run. This is not a dog fighter game, these are huge spacecraft.
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