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"Monoclegate", or: A Treatise On Why We're So ******* Pissed
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Written Word
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2011-10-24 08:57:13 UTC
Think of all the time you could save if you just unsubscribe because its ~so bad~ rather than spamming the forums with trite garbage...
van Uber
Loke Inc.
#22 - 2011-10-24 08:58:19 UTC
Frankly, I don't care much about monoclegate, fearless or "awesome". I got depressed 18 months ago when Oveur made it clear that tending to FiS would be nothing more than an afterthought for the forseeable future.

CCP Chronotis made me wary with his comment about balance being done in the summer when developers were not so busy with important stuff. But it was Oveur who hammered it home. Not trying to shoot the messenger here, just stating that things went wry a lot earlier than NEX.

But focus is shifting and Hilmar hinted at something like Aporypha II, so I'm shifting from depressed to optimistic. Slowly.
Solhild
Doomheim
#23 - 2011-10-24 09:00:11 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
didn't read cuz it too long....
however monaclegate shown that Eve players are just voice children in most. And this is really sad.




No.

Monoclegate showed that Eve Players are considerably more than even CCP executives gave us credit for. The people that pay subscriptions for this game are NOT the kind of credulous patsy marks that other games companies are able to target and milk with cynical MT schemes without consequence. Eve has always been a game of consequence and it appears the greater game of ccp development priority and corporate management has now joined this principle in the metagame.

Eve players are not just vocal children.
If they were children then they would have been suckered by NeX/Incarna, monocles and $1000 jeans (mainly because it would be their parent's credit cards they were begging the use of)

Eve players are something unique in the games industry - they are smart, passionate, active and now radicalised in the sphere of game development revolutions. Years ago when I served as the first chair of the CSM I listened to Hilmar describing the player representatives as "chieftains of the internet" coming to Iceland to argue for the way our tribes wanted to see this game develop.

Well, now the tribes have united and faced down a deeply unpopular regime (MT/NeX/GreedCarna) and won a clash of will and ideology. Hilmar challenged us to act rather than simply talk and we acted in a way he could not ignore. The protesters of monoclegate made history in the games industry and may well have saved an MMO from its own internal corruption and business misadventure.

This is not the achievement of mere children.

And frankly "March Rabbit" you should count yourself priviledged to play a game with a user base as visionary and bold and impassioned as the Eve community.

I know I do.





Very well put, indeed Big smile
Swooshie
USA Canada Private Corp
#24 - 2011-10-24 09:02:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Swooshie
Written Word wrote:
Think of all the time you could save if you just unsubscribe because its ~so bad~ rather than spamming the forums with trite garbage...


Yes! Throwing your hands in the air instead of fighting for what you like or want is also nice and useful and shows how deep is one's dedication! Let's see how it would go if we applied that logic to the women's rights issue, the arab spring movement or the simple fact that next time your mobile carrier or internet ISP screws you up or the TV you got from Best Buy lights up orange, you just put it aside and move on, silently What?.

"It is when I think about meaning that I lose what I meant to say."     -Swooshie
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#25 - 2011-10-24 09:04:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
van Uber wrote:
Frankly, I don't care much about monoclegate, fearless or "awesome". I got depressed 18 months ago when Oveur made it clear that tending to FiS would be nothing more than an afterthought for the forseeable future.

CCP Chronotis made me wary with his comment about balance being done in the summer when developers were not so busy with important stuff. But it was Oveur who hammered it home. Not trying to shoot the messenger here, just stating that things went wry a lot earlier than NEX.

But focus is shifting and Hilmar hinted at something like Aporypha II, so I'm shifting from depressed to optimistic. Slowly.




Well :Monoclegate: was the ultimate destination of :18 months: I guess we feared something like this at the time but were still riding on a wave of happiness with Apocrypha and so did get suckered. I do remember there were protests against :18 months: at the time but they weren't so successful by a long way.

Like you I'm moving towards optimistic now that CCP are talking in terms of apocrypha scale expansions again - but I do need to see NeX/MT concept shot in the head (on its knees in a drainage culvert) to truly underline the achievements of the player revolution in Eve.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Written Word
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2011-10-24 09:09:36 UTC
Swooshie wrote:
Written Word wrote:
Think of all the time you could save if you just unsubscribe because its ~so bad~ rather than spamming the forums with trite garbage...


Yes! Throwing your hands in the air instead of fighting for what you like or want is also nice and useful and shows how deep is one's dedication! Let's see how it would go if we applied that logic to the women's rights issue, the arab spring movement or the simple fact that next time your mobile carrier or internet ISP screws you up or the TV you got from Best Buy lights up orange, you just put it aside and move on, silently What?.


Unsubscribing is easily the most powerful option in moving the company's direction.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#27 - 2011-10-24 09:12:32 UTC
Written Word wrote:
Swooshie wrote:
Written Word wrote:
Think of all the time you could save if you just unsubscribe because its ~so bad~ rather than spamming the forums with trite garbage...


Yes! Throwing your hands in the air instead of fighting for what you like or want is also nice and useful and shows how deep is one's dedication! Let's see how it would go if we applied that logic to the women's rights issue, the arab spring movement or the simple fact that next time your mobile carrier or internet ISP screws you up or the TV you got from Best Buy lights up orange, you just put it aside and move on, silently What?.


Unsubscribing is easily the most powerful option in moving the company's direction.


Unsubing one's alts, while paying the main with PLEX and taking full part in protests and publicity against the hated NeX/GreedCarna regime is the most effective option in my opinion.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Swooshie
USA Canada Private Corp
#28 - 2011-10-24 09:16:07 UTC
Quote:
Unsubscribing is easily the most powerful option in moving the company's direction.


It is! But it is also the last resort. One could imagine what would have happened if everyone just pulled the plug without a word and how it would have been interpreted without the rest of us to yell it out loud. Beside, you were talking about this thread and you know very well what my reply meant and what I really implied there. Smile so, no more arguing on this point from me.

"It is when I think about meaning that I lose what I meant to say."     -Swooshie
Tanya Fox
Doomheim
#29 - 2011-10-24 09:44:29 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
didn't read cuz it too long....
however monaclegate shown that Eve players are just voice children in most. And this is really sad.




Monaclegate what actually is that? Just incase it's not what I think it is.


Monocles were never the issue, for some people that don't like microtransactions the NeX store was. Monocles had a lot of coverage at the time which even confused CCP. But monocles were nothing more than light entertainment to most that clouded the issues for those that did not know any better.

Hardware issues for some, this was never a main issue it was an issue, they should have been able to fix that at some point.

Ship spinning, again not a main issue, I used to do this myself sometimes. But an issue to some.

I don't even think Incarna is really that much of an issue, problem with Incarna is that it takes development away from other areas of the game and that's where the main issue there lies

The main issues were that they were using Eve as a testing ground for their other projects, there was hardly any development going on with Eve because of these other projects. They were not being truthful to their customer base, their whole handling of the affair was really poor and showed a complete disregard for their customers. So a message had to be sent, so myself and many others unsubbed and left the game for awhile.


I know some people blame those that left for the job loses, but that's just not true.

I don't blame CCP for taking on two new projects, but when the world economic crisis hit they should have put one on hold then. They obviously thought they could cope at the time and the more you invest in a project the harder it is to stop.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#30 - 2011-10-24 09:56:54 UTC
Written Word wrote:
Swooshie wrote:
Written Word wrote:
Think of all the time you could save if you just unsubscribe because its ~so bad~ rather than spamming the forums with trite garbage...


Yes! Throwing your hands in the air instead of fighting for what you like or want is also nice and useful and shows how deep is one's dedication! Let's see how it would go if we applied that logic to the women's rights issue, the arab spring movement or the simple fact that next time your mobile carrier or internet ISP screws you up or the TV you got from Best Buy lights up orange, you just put it aside and move on, silently What?.


Unsubscribing is easily the most powerful option in moving the company's direction.

Yes, but unsubbing doesn't instantly turn off your account. Some of us completely unsubbed, and used our remaining time to make it very clear why. That why I spoke up on at that time, and why I took park in the Jita Riots(also, they were alot of fun Pirate).

I made my voice heard, and then I used it. Just unsubbing isn't using your voice, its giving up.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Psychophantic
#31 - 2011-10-24 09:56:57 UTC
Monoclegate,

When the community of the intelligent mmo spammed CCP investor emails and asked lulzsec to ddos the servers.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#32 - 2011-10-24 10:00:11 UTC
Psychophantic wrote:
Monoclegate,

When the community of the intelligent mmo spammed CCP investor emails and asked lulzsec to ddos the servers.

lulzsec actually did the attack before monoclegate, iirc.

Mostly remember because it happened while I still cared, if it had happened during or after, I woulda thought it was deserved.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Little Delicious
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2011-10-24 10:22:16 UTC
Holy ****, you really sat down and typed all that bs? You better check your junk dude, it may have fallen off due to neglect.
van Uber
Loke Inc.
#34 - 2011-10-24 10:23:28 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:

Like you I'm moving towards optimistic now that CCP are talking in terms of apocrypha scale expansions again - but I do need to see NeX/MT concept shot in the head (on its knees in a drainage culvert) to truly underline the achievements of the player revolution in Eve.


Speaking of NeX, I thought your idea of selling only out of game items in it was brilliant. Finally an easy accessible way to shop merchandise. And I'm presonally convinced that CCP would benefit if they made vanity items destructable but cheap and easily obtainable from the regular market.

... but I don't see that happen, ever. Sadly.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2011-10-24 10:41:59 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
van Uber wrote:
Frankly, I don't care much about monoclegate, fearless or "awesome". I got depressed 18 months ago when Oveur made it clear that tending to FiS would be nothing more than an afterthought for the forseeable future.

CCP Chronotis made me wary with his comment about balance being done in the summer when developers were not so busy with important stuff. But it was Oveur who hammered it home. Not trying to shoot the messenger here, just stating that things went wry a lot earlier than NEX.

But focus is shifting and Hilmar hinted at something like Aporypha II, so I'm shifting from depressed to optimistic. Slowly.




Well :Monoclegate: was the ultimate destination of :18 months: I guess we feared something like this at the time but were still riding on a wave of happiness with Apocrypha and so did get suckered. I do remember there were protests against :18 months: at the time but they weren't so successful by a long way.

Like you I'm moving towards optimistic now that CCP are talking in terms of apocrypha scale expansions again - but I do need to see NeX/MT concept shot in the head (on its knees in a drainage culvert) to truly underline the achievements of the player revolution in Eve.



tbh this whole crappola can be summarized in a few words:

CCP said :18 months:, many didn't like it but a good handful went "well we hope it's great!" (me included btw), :18 months: happened, and all we got was a dirty room. RAEG happens, including from yours truly.


the issue is basically this: we got nearly no content (dominion was launched in a very incomplete status, Tyrannis was "lol" at best, and Incursion wasn't that great) for 18 months so that we could have one room.

one room.


of course people got angry. I, as one of the guys that can see the point of walking in stations, also got angry, because they crubstomped the development of the rest of the game for what it can be considered a vanity display that can't even interact with the rest of the people.


now, I, like most likely a good number of people, don't want to see WiS binned, BUT, they should recover those lost :18 months: before they do anything more to WiS.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
van Uber
Loke Inc.
#36 - 2011-10-24 11:05:41 UTC
Grimpak wrote:

now, I, like most likely a good number of people, don't want to see WiS binned, BUT, they should recover those lost :18 months: before they do anything more to WiS.


This. I actually was looking forward to stroll along establishments, bars and shops. But not on the expence of EVE. There is nothing I'd like to see more than a whole team dedicated to balance, a team that iterates on something every single patch that is thrown out there.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#37 - 2011-10-24 11:22:29 UTC
van Uber wrote:
Grimpak wrote:

now, I, like most likely a good number of people, don't want to see WiS binned, BUT, they should recover those lost :18 months: before they do anything more to WiS.


This. I actually was looking forward to stroll along establishments, bars and shops. But not on the expence of EVE. There is nothing I'd like to see more than a whole team dedicated to balance, a team that iterates on something every single patch that is thrown out there.

This is kind of a change I think should happen in CCP, and already is starting to with BFF and Gridlock... Certain teams dedicated to certain areas.

We have Gridlock on everything Lag(and they rule), BFF of bugfixing(for which they should get to wear capes), now we need an iteration team, who's only job is iterating on existing content, and they can use the rest of the devstaff for pretty much any project they please.

With those simple teams, the dedicate a certain given staff to improving the Eve we already have, which is basically what everyone is asking for on the focus area. I figure teams of a minimum size of 10 devs would be able to work at a fairly quick pace(after all, they are working on the same thing every day, they know how to flow with it after a time), meaning that 30 devs, out of a company of 480, should leave them with plenty of dev resources to create.

Surely, in a software development company of 480 people, 30 dedicated to improving the existing platform, as opposed to expanding it, is kind of a basic investment of manpower?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Lulzes
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2011-10-24 13:08:04 UTC
Although I hate to cheer at the news that someone's lost their job, firing CCP Pann was probably one of the smartest moves.

Public Relations is a joke at the best of times, and an immoral practice at the worst of times, and it's interesting to see how Eve has gone downhill since CCP stopped using developers to talk to players and started using PR. Pann's comments in the Monoclegate threadnaught were exactly what one would expect to hear from a PR person dealing with a normal game, but Eve isn't a normal game. It's unique, and I think the majority of its players are also unique in their expectations.

It's a shame to see some of the community people go, but I'd be disappointed if CCP still retains any PR.

(PS I deal with PR people on a daily basis at work, so I think I speak from experience.)
Azelor Delaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2011-10-24 17:50:25 UTC
Little Delicious wrote:
Holy ****, you really sat down and typed all that bs? You better check your junk dude, it may have fallen off due to neglect.


Nope. My junk was cut off by my girlfriend.
Barakkus
#40 - 2011-10-24 17:53:52 UTC
You're 2 months late, you should have posted something 2 months ago in the appropriate thread.

Everything is fine now, go away and find some other revolutionary thing to post about, but don't post about it here.

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc
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