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CSM7 Dec Summit Topics and Minutes status

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Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Shadow Cartel
#101 - 2012-12-28 22:37:42 UTC
Seleene wrote:
Personally, I'm expecting to see some real movement from CCP by next Friday (Jan 4th), at the very least a solid progress report on their end. If we don't have that, we will certainly let the community know.


In the meantime, allow me to suggest some light reading for those who may be anxious about the pace of the minutes.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Shadow Cartel
#102 - 2012-12-28 22:39:43 UTC
Seleene wrote:
Anne-Louise Chasse wrote:
With the mess you do about what CCP itself is working on it, almost makes you want to thank that all you spend WiS/Avatars oblivious.Ugh?


What?


Anne's already forewarned us of her reliance on Google translate. We'll just have to accept that some things will be lost in the process. v0v

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Frying Doom
#103 - 2012-12-28 23:43:33 UTC
Seleene wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
The fact that some of your membership in the CSM have no idea why the staff economist at CCP should be consulted kind of says it all.


He's not a Game Designer. He follows economic trends and makes lots of graphs and charts. He is not part of CCP's feature development process and never has been. On some issues, he and his ~people~ are quizzed about things and adjustments might be made based on the data requested, but YOU seem to be confused about the role of the good Doctor.

Yes I probably am and this would explain why some features have to be repatched after their initial release as they are easily economically exploitable or in the case in question would have massive effects to all of EvE that the CSM does not seem to even recognize.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Shadow Cartel
#104 - 2012-12-29 01:21:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Frying Doom wrote:
Yes I probably am and this would explain why some features have to be repatched after their initial release as they are easily economically exploitable or in the case in question would have massive effects to all of EvE that the CSM does not seem to even recognize.


It really has noting to do with the CSM's ability to recognize the problems, it has everything to do with CCP's willingness to listen to our advice. In the case of the Faction Warfare exploit, the formula was deliberately withheld even from CSM members, despite our NDA protection, so we didn't have enough information to identify the specific break point but I specifically asked about the method used to calculate average market price with exploitation in mind. CCP knew it was a potential point of exploit before it actually broke, but assured me they had addressed it properly and told me no more. The Goons on the other hand had a team, much more spare time, and some pretty genius brains to throw at reverse-engineering the problem through brute force testing,and it paid off with them beating everyone else to solving it.

In contrast, with Bounty Hunting the CSM was an active part of the stakeholder team and included (thought not as much as we'd like) into the scrum cycle. We took great care to warn them about the many ways Bounty Hunting might be exploited (security was our priority) and solutions were built-in well from the beginning. Its no surprise to me that we've seen very few shenanigans with a brand new revenue stream flowing so deeply and widely throughout the player economy.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Frying Doom
#105 - 2012-12-29 01:38:00 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Yes I probably am and this would explain why some features have to be repatched after their initial release as they are easily economically exploitable or in the case in question would have massive effects to all of EvE that the CSM does not seem to even recognize.


It really has noting to do with the CSM's ability to recognize the problems, it has everything to do with CCP's willingness to listen to our advice. In the case of the Faction Warfare exploit, the formula was deliberately withheld even from CSM members, despite our NDA protection, so we didn't have enough information to identify the specific break point but I specifically asked about the method used to calculate LP payouts with exploitation in mind. CCP knew it was a potential point of exploit before it actually broke, but assured me they had addressed it properly and told me no more. The Goons on the other hand had a team, much more spare time, and some pretty genius brains to throw at reverse-engineering the problem through brute force testing,and it paid off with them beating everyone else to solving it.

In contrast, with Bounty Hunting the CSM was an active part of the stakeholder team and included (thought not as much as we'd like) into the scrum cycle. We took great care to warn them about the many ways Bounty Hunting might be exploited (security was our priority) and solutions were built-in well from the beginning. Its no surprise to me that we've seen very few shenanigans with a brand new revenue stream flowing so deeply and widely throughout the player economy.

Well given your elegant statement in the GD thread I will actually hold off my condemnation of CSM 7 and await the arival of the minutes which I must say sound like the most important document ever released by any CSM to date.

I hope they don't disappoint my expectations.

I will admit I do appreciate the simple statement in the other thread and honestly hope that CCP also come to use the expertise of the CSM and their in house economist more.

Happy holidays, I think that is what the Americans say.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#106 - 2012-12-29 08:53:50 UTC
Seleene wrote:


Noting will get released until it's approved by both sides of the process. Right now the road block is CCP and it will probably be sometime before mid-January before everything is all done. Maybe sooner, maybe not. The CSM is doing our part but, as has been stated, quite a lot of folks are simply NOT sitting in front of their computers over the past two weeks and with damn good reason. Personally, I'm expecting to see some real movement from CCP by next Friday (Jan 4th), at the very least a solid progress report on their end. If we don't have that, we will certainly let the community know.

So let me just double check this

As at the 28th of December all of the minutes that are to be done by the CSM have now been submitted bu the CSM to CCP.

Now we wait on CCP, who are mostly skiing (Do they do that much in Iceland?)

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#107 - 2012-12-30 22:41:35 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Seleene wrote:


Noting will get released until it's approved by both sides of the process. Right now the road block is CCP and it will probably be sometime before mid-January before everything is all done. Maybe sooner, maybe not. The CSM is doing our part but, as has been stated, quite a lot of folks are simply NOT sitting in front of their computers over the past two weeks and with damn good reason. Personally, I'm expecting to see some real movement from CCP by next Friday (Jan 4th), at the very least a solid progress report on their end. If we don't have that, we will certainly let the community know.

So let me just double check this

As at the 28th of December all of the minutes that are to be done by the CSM have now been submitted bu the CSM to CCP.

Now we wait on CCP, who are mostly skiing (Do they do that much in Iceland?)


Pretty much.

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#108 - 2012-12-30 23:33:36 UTC
Seleene wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Seleene wrote:


Noting will get released until it's approved by both sides of the process. Right now the road block is CCP and it will probably be sometime before mid-January before everything is all done. Maybe sooner, maybe not. The CSM is doing our part but, as has been stated, quite a lot of folks are simply NOT sitting in front of their computers over the past two weeks and with damn good reason. Personally, I'm expecting to see some real movement from CCP by next Friday (Jan 4th), at the very least a solid progress report on their end. If we don't have that, we will certainly let the community know.

So let me just double check this

As at the 28th of December all of the minutes that are to be done by the CSM have now been submitted bu the CSM to CCP.

Now we wait on CCP, who are mostly skiing (Do they do that much in Iceland?)


Pretty much.

Except that by 'skiing' he means 'drinking'.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Frying Doom
#109 - 2012-12-31 04:21:12 UTC
Seleene wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Seleene wrote:


Noting will get released until it's approved by both sides of the process. Right now the road block is CCP and it will probably be sometime before mid-January before everything is all done. Maybe sooner, maybe not. The CSM is doing our part but, as has been stated, quite a lot of folks are simply NOT sitting in front of their computers over the past two weeks and with damn good reason. Personally, I'm expecting to see some real movement from CCP by next Friday (Jan 4th), at the very least a solid progress report on their end. If we don't have that, we will certainly let the community know.

So let me just double check this

As at the 28th of December all of the minutes that are to be done by the CSM have now been submitted bu the CSM to CCP.

Now we wait on CCP, who are mostly skiing (Do they do that much in Iceland?)


Pretty much.

Thank you

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#110 - 2013-01-02 16:37:03 UTC
Update, we just submitted 2 more sessions worth of minutes, plus another NDA paragraph for a session that will have no minutes.

We have 1 session left (DUST part 2), and CCP was going to do minutes for the other two sessions, but we might take those back to get them done sooner.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#111 - 2013-01-03 21:42:23 UTC
And updated once more. We now have just one session left, CCP was supposed to do it, but we will probably just finish it ourselves. CCP has started reviewing sessions, and we are getting some feedback from them.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Raid'En
#112 - 2013-01-03 22:22:40 UTC
Can you estimate when the minutes would be released at current rhythm ?
1 week ? more ? less ?
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Shadow Cartel
#113 - 2013-01-04 03:29:49 UTC
Raid'En wrote:
Can you estimate when the minutes would be released at current rhythm ?
1 week ? more ? less ?


I'm wrapping up the last session here. After that, only CCP can answer your question. Many are still gone on holiday and are beginning to get back into the office. We have a joint editable document up now to expedite things, just a matter of how soon we get the approvals we need to release them.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Raid'En
#114 - 2013-01-04 05:27:54 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Raid'En wrote:
Can you estimate when the minutes would be released at current rhythm ?
No

Fixed :P
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#115 - 2013-01-04 13:55:46 UTC
My ***GUESS*** is that late next week would be the earliest you would see them. If they aren't out then or the week after that, something is seriously wrong.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

None ofthe Above
#116 - 2013-01-05 01:21:36 UTC
Two step wrote:
My ***GUESS*** is that late next week would be the earliest you would see them. If they aren't out then or the week after that, something is seriously wrong.


So given that you guys initially stated that you wanted the minutes out by the end of the month of December so that the community could discuss these in a timely fashion so as to have input into the decision making process happening at CCP during January (AKA right now), this is not exactly op success.

Are there minutes to some sessions approved that you could release now?

If you did that, we could at least get started.

If you wait till everything is done, they may be irrelevant (or at least less relevant).

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Shadow Cartel
#117 - 2013-01-05 02:07:47 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
So given that you guys initially stated that you wanted the minutes out by the end of the month of December so that the community could discuss these in a timely fashion so as to have input into the decision making process happening at CCP during January (AKA right now), this is not exactly op success.

Are there minutes to some sessions approved that you could release now?

If you did that, we could at least get started.

If you wait till everything is done, they may be irrelevant (or at least less relevant).


CCP is still getting back into the office. We have not had our first meetings with CCP staff regarding planning, our first is on the 10th. CCP Xhagen has said he'll be working this weekend to get as many of them approved as possible so we can get most of them out next week ideally.

And the minutes are done. Simply awaiting CCP edit / approval. If we release them early, and incomplete, I guarantee you they will be less relevant. Context is important with this set. We're also hoping for a dev blog to be released around the same time that will also support the minutes and give them proper setting.

Fear not, these will not come too late to be relevent to the players.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#118 - 2013-01-05 04:51:55 UTC
Updated, Hans finished the last session, and as he said, it is up to CCP now.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

None ofthe Above
#119 - 2013-01-05 05:15:03 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:
So given that you guys initially stated that you wanted the minutes out by the end of the month of December so that the community could discuss these in a timely fashion so as to have input into the decision making process happening at CCP during January (AKA right now), this is not exactly op success.

Are there minutes to some sessions approved that you could release now?

If you did that, we could at least get started.

If you wait till everything is done, they may be irrelevant (or at least less relevant).


CCP is still getting back into the office. We have not had our first meetings with CCP staff regarding planning, our first is on the 10th. CCP Xhagen has said he'll be working this weekend to get as many of them approved as possible so we can get most of them out next week ideally.

And the minutes are done. Simply awaiting CCP edit / approval. If we release them early, and incomplete, I guarantee you they will be less relevant. Context is important with this set. We're also hoping for a dev blog to be released around the same time that will also support the minutes and give them proper setting.

Fear not, these will not come too late to be relevent to the players.


Well you guys set the sense of urgency. I wasn't worried about it at Jan 4th, only a little late at this point.

But when we start talking about late next week or the week after, alternate strategies may be worth considering.

Looks like you are thinking of releasing in a more fluid fashion to maximize timeliness.

I do understand your argument about context. Can minimize (but never eliminate) the howlings from the tin-foil hat crowd. Hopefully a good balance can be achieved.

Looking forward to it and hope this all goes well.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2013-01-05 08:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
For all the "it's up to CCP" rhetoric it bears mentioning that it was the CSM, not CCP, who made a promise to the community that they can't keep.

It seems that you gave us a completely unrealistic deadline that ignored common-sense (CCP being out of office over the holidays), ignored the experiences from previous years (this time everything is different) and didn't leave any room for error & delays.

But instead of taking responsibility for this planning failure you blame CCP.


(I once did an internship in a team where our PM worked like this - she gave the customer our "best case" estimate, expected a 3rd party we did rely on to deliver right on time and allowed our most important developers to take 2 weeks vacation right after the "best case" deadline.
We ended up shipping the product (with less features than originally planned) about 6 weeks late (or after 150% of the "best case" estimate), our PM had a nervous breakdown after a client meeting, we had to eat the budget overruns and we lost the maintenance contract that should have followed deployment.

There are many common rules of thumb on how to estimate delivery times - but "just use your best case scenario" is not one of them.)

.