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PvE seriously needs to be overhauled
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Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#121 - 2013-01-01 14:05:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Pak Narhoo
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Y'know you're going to hate to hear this but... Star Trek Online has a built-in mission generator that let's players make their own missions to share with the community. One of the features of this is the way it handles enemy spawns: They can be randomized. Meaning if you place a spawn in a mission it can be set to produce a variable number of ships within a set bracket. It might do lots of little cannon fodder ships, or it might do a fewer number of more elite AI type ships.

That's what missions in EvE need. Instead of fixed, predictable & linear spawns it simply needs randomized spawn thingies. It might dump out four frigates... or two cruisers... or just one cruiser with better AI and EWAR. That high level spawn could be just one top level battleship with every AI gimmick in the book, or end up spewing out a horde of over twenty cheap, low AI frigates.



I liked this (and the rest). I even think it's either possible or was discussed within CCP because I remember an similar thread where a Dev stepped in ( I think it was CCP Atropos ), after someone suggested that players should be able to create missions, and asked what if you had these tools what we would do with them, or something alike.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#122 - 2013-01-01 14:09:05 UTC
Oxylan wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Oxylan wrote:
Guys come on, a lot people play EvE because they like pve and economy


If you like PvE then EVE is literally the last game you should be playing.


I think same about pvp, i dont avoid pvp, somtime i do it on occasion, but here a lot games with better pvp which offer more dynamic and instant pvp, than waste few hours each day to fit and travel xx jump to be killed in less than 10sec to first gate blob, or waitig x hours in gate camp to kill industral, pve in EvE is more flexibility than pvp, because i feel realy freedom while i do pve things, and while i pvp in most cases i feel like slave of game mechanic .

PvP its awesome in some cases, but in long them suck a lot, and is nothing than killboards statistic farm.


I see you have never gone out to build an empire, PvP in EVE is more than shooting randoms in the face.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#123 - 2013-01-01 14:09:31 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
If mission pockets just had a small pool, say 1-10, of packs of ship that got mixed, it might be enough as a first step.

I'd take a leaf out of the Alliance Tournament/NEO. Assign every rat type a points value, and have each mission/belt/anomaly spawn be randomly made up of ships totalling that points value. So rather than warping in to your mission knowing that the first wave is 5 cruisers, 3 battleships and a sentry tower, you know that the first wave is going to be 50 points, but it could be any combination of rats that made that point total up. Add other variables, like dropping the individually named rat classes so a player can't immediately identify the priority targets, and having rats genuinely use their racial weapon types so they can switch damage types and/or ranges, and we're well on the way to a more challenging and interesting form of PvE.

This would cut down greatly on the min-maxing and nudge players towards balanced fits that could be taken into the unknown since a raw DPS one-trick-pony fit would be in major trouble if the 'wrong' rats turned up. Encouraging missioners to fit for all-round balance also gives them a better idea of what to expect if they take up PvP (or if PvP decides to happen to them unexpectedly one day) rather than the typical "I fitted for mission optimisation so I had no chance to defend myself when that other guy warped in and tackled/neute me :( " stories we hear time and time again.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Lexmana
#124 - 2013-01-01 14:22:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Oxylan wrote:
but here a lot games with better pvp which offer more dynamic and instant pvp, than waste few hours each day to fit and travel xx jump to be killed in less than 10sec to first gate blob,

I can see your problem here. EVE is not a theme park MMO where you get everything handed to you on a platter. You have to organize yourself to get a better experience. One of the more important aspects of PvP and warfare in EVE is to have a good logistics chain and funding (hint: ships and fittings are best bought in bulk and stored in station/pos close to combat for easy replacement). And combat itself has to be planned using all tools and intel available. A lot of people like this challenge and enjoy the depth of EVE PvP gameplay. Others just don't seem to see the forest for all the trees and think EVE does best as a PvE game.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#125 - 2013-01-01 14:23:43 UTC
Sannye wrote:
Exposed to risk is when im in lowsec or 0.0
Missions is to found ^.

If you trust CCP to change the NPC's in EVE, without compleatly overdooing it, fine. I dont.

But.. since i've been on an "evebreak" for allmost a year, then maybe i shouldnt be here on the forums at all.. lol

If you think that everyone else should continue to have boring terrible content inflicted on them just so you can continue to brainlessly semi-afk through it to fund your ship losses, maybe you should look at making your "evebreak" permanent.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Oxylan
Blood Fanatics
#126 - 2013-01-01 15:17:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Oxylan
Lexmana wrote:
Oxylan wrote:
but here a lot games with better pvp which offer more dynamic and instant pvp, than waste few hours each day to fit and travel xx jump to be killed in less than 10sec to first gate blob,

I can see your problem here. EVE is not a theme park MMO where you get everything handed to you on a platter. You have to organize yourself to get a better experience. One of the more important aspects of PvP and warfare in EVE is to have a good logistics chain and funding (hint: ships and fittings are best bought in bulk and stored in station/pos close to combat for easy replacement). And combat itself has to be planned using all tools and intel available. A lot of people like this challenge and enjoy the depth of EVE PvP gameplay. Others just don't seem to see the forest for all the trees and think EVE does best as a PvE game.


Its ok, if people like pvp and they happy about it its OK, i dont force them to avoid or stop pvp! but im against therads or topics that suggest or force me to change my gaming style, personal opinion and my personal vision about PVP or PVE and EvE it slef, how PVP should affect my gaming style etc, i dont have any problem with EvE, i love EvE, i like EvE like it is, i adapt to EvE like it is, i like PVE, i dislike PVP in general because of my personally view and opinion about it, hovewer i dont avoid it totaly.

From end of 2006 i try meny things in game, im not a PVP fanatic like most (jung characters in GD) who folow other fanatics anty miners and careberar ideology and spread wired things about how mechanic or pve in empire sucks.

Guys EvE is healthy since ten years, fact that a lot people focus on pve got zero impact on your PVP in general, come on 10 years long and still some people think that PVP die or is worse than before because of PVE and carebears... this is nonsense, i mention before that PVP suck in general but regarding to my gaming style and my view on this matter, PVP its fine in general for mass, hovewer its not for everyone, BECAUSE ITS DAMN SANDBOX and peopele play like they want.

Sorry for horrible grammar.

If it bleed we can kill it.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#127 - 2013-01-01 17:32:51 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
DSpite Culhach wrote:
If mission pockets just had a small pool, say 1-10, of packs of ship that got mixed, it might be enough as a first step.

I'd take a leaf out of the Alliance Tournament/NEO. Assign every rat type a points value, and have each mission/belt/anomaly spawn be randomly made up of ships totalling that points value. So rather than warping in to your mission knowing that the first wave is 5 cruisers, 3 battleships and a sentry tower, you know that the first wave is going to be 50 points, but it could be any combination of rats that made that point total up. Add other variables, like dropping the individually named rat classes so a player can't immediately identify the priority targets, and having rats genuinely use their racial weapon types so they can switch damage types and/or ranges, and we're well on the way to a more challenging and interesting form of PvE.


See this? This is exactly the kind of thing I was alluring too, that would make the PvE aspect far more fun than the current predictable state.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Hannah Flex
#128 - 2013-01-01 18:07:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannah Flex
Sannye wrote:
I read the whole thread, and I ended up very confused? What does the OP even want?


I dont think anyone has ever put forth a reasonable and good idea to spice up PVE in this game. The gist of the thread is: give us WH and 0.0 type PVE in the protection, shelter and loving embrace of Concord. And the counterpoint is: if PVE is boring maybe its that way for a reason and you should try pvp?

So I'll say it again: no one has ever put forth a reasonable and intuitive, well-thought out idea to revamp PVE in this game. If you're looking for thrilling, challenging and engaging PVE these are not the droids you are looking for.

EDIT: Incursions were a good idea that wasnt implemented to well, in that it gives carebears and PVE dudes a feel for fleets and cooperative play- but like all things in EVE PVE it turned into an exercise in farming: figuring out the greatest amount of gain (isk) for the least amount of effort and risk, then do it over and over and over again.
Hannah Flex
#129 - 2013-01-01 18:19:38 UTC
I think the closest anyone comes to thrilling PVE is ninja plexers in 0.0, WH explorers and low sec explorers. I'm sure their heart starts beating faster at times as they go about their business. Everyone else is unwilling to subject themselves to that much risk.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#130 - 2013-01-01 19:37:59 UTC
Hannah Flex wrote:
Sannye wrote:
I read the whole thread, and I ended up very confused? What does the OP even want?


I dont think anyone has ever put forth a reasonable and good idea to spice up PVE in this game. The gist of the thread is: give us WH and 0.0 type PVE in the protection, shelter and loving embrace of Concord. And the counterpoint is: if PVE is boring maybe its that way for a reason and you should try pvp?


Exactly. And this is why i equate the OP and people like this with "Welfare Queens". They want something for nothing.

I spent my 1st year of playing as a mission runner, and got bored to death with it and learned about pve outside of high sec as a result. The LAST thing I would have done is run to this forum and basically beg the game makers to bring the better pve experiences to me.

Quote:

So I'll say it again: no one has ever put forth a reasonable and intuitive, well-thought out idea to revamp PVE in this game. If you're looking for thrilling, challenging and engaging PVE these are not the droids you are looking for.


I think people just have unreasonably high expectations (about everything, but in this case lets just limit it to EVE pve lol). 5 years going on 6 I've been playing and most of that has been pve, I'm STILL trying out new fits, finding new uses for in game items (I'm probably one of the biggest users of FoF missles, auto-targeting systems, defender missiles and other underused in game items playing right now) and under-used ships too.

EVE PVE is a part of the sandbox experience. And like I'm always fond of saying, if you are not having fun in a sandbox, the SAND is not at fault, your lack of creativity is.

Quote:

EDIT: Incursions were a good idea that wasnt implemented to well, in that it gives carebears and PVE dudes a feel for fleets and cooperative play- but like all things in EVE PVE it turned into an exercise in farming: figuring out the greatest amount of gain (isk) for the least amount of effort and risk, then do it over and over and over again.


It's human nature that people do that. It's why game makers should have a really good working knowledge of gamer psycology. CCP employs an economist, they could use a good psychiatrist as well lol.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#131 - 2013-01-01 19:50:57 UTC
Lowsec Incursions were a lot of fun when we ran them in the early days, but were nerfed to death as part of an over-reaction to their highsec farming. Does anyone run them now?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#132 - 2013-01-01 19:57:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mars Theran
Could always have it so that NPCs have a sort of accelerated increase in power projection. Maybe they don't have Supercaps and Titans in Nullsec initially, but if you leave them alone for too long... Lol


Actually, despite how silly that sounds, having NPC groups that respond to losses and gains in a reasonable fashion would probably be good, but I don't see how this would affect Mission sites, aside from the players killing them and creating losses.

Maybe they could tap out and the missions that you encounter them in could scale down to lower levels over time. First they can not be found in level 5s, then 4s, then 3s, and so on. Once they hit level 1s, there presence in space could slowly move back towards their stronghold in 0.0 Rats disappear from belts, complexes and the like, and eventually you only see them gate camping in 0.0 until they rebuild their strength and position.

Of course, that would probably mean they would only be found in 0.0 eventually.

Nerf Highsec?

Maybe a little extreme, but it's an interesting idea. Before you know it, the Devs would have to either make their space True Nullsec, or invent a new Pirate group, complete with new ships and the like to replace them with.

I think there are plenty of suggestions for Highsec mission improvement, and I'm certain the Devs are aware of it, but have yet to come up with a reasonable solution. PvE is what it is. A new AI may help matters along a little and make things more interesting for awhile, but ultimately the content is static and that is the primary issue.

Making the content dynamic and ever evolving would be great, but the requirements to do so may be too extreme. It's a tough call.


..actually, speaking of Incursions. They are probably the best idea introduced in PvE in EVE. Despite the profit potential issue that many have complained about, the model in place is excellent. Do we really have to know why an agent of PvE is doing something. We have a vague idea with Incursions, but not nearly the detailed description we read in your average mission.

What makes them great is that they are somewhat unpredictable, available to everyone, and dynamically involved with the game and players. Even if you don't take part, you can be affected by it.

Still, having the Incursions gate camp in Highsec and exercise more effective tactics and strategy would be nice. Players will learn to adapt, and EVE will be better for it. Also, as I suggested some time ago in a related post, having them affect system security dynamically through their presence would be a welcome and sensible addition.
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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#133 - 2013-01-01 22:37:12 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
OMGAWD,

Reading through this thread reminded me of trying to watch a 3-Ring Circus while being seated down in the very front row.

*The Circus Ringmaster steps up saying*
Quote:
Hurry, Hurry, step right up. Come get your tickets to the greatest show in the Universe.
Men, women and children, young or old. All are welcomed to enter Eve's Big Top Circus.
In the center ring is PvE player promoting PvE overhaul / change.
In the two outside rings are PvE players, one side agreeing and the other side disagreeing.


*Meanwhile the audience ends up having their view of the rings (reason for attending the show) blocked due to the endless parade of so-called PvP leets all trying to flex their EPEEN.......... in a thread about PvE.*

Ugh


DMC

P.S.
As for making the current missions and anomalies more challenging, could try running them in Frigates with a few friends.

Also I do agree with the OP that the PvE aspect of this game should be and definitely needs to be expanded upon and updated, but to what extent is the main question.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#134 - 2013-01-02 02:44:28 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Could always have it so that NPCs have a sort of accelerated increase in power projection. Maybe they don't have Supercaps and Titans in Nullsec initially, but if you leave them alone for too long... Lol

The opposite of running incursion sites until the mothership shows up?

Interesting.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#135 - 2013-01-02 02:46:01 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Maybe they could tap out and the missions that you encounter them in could scale down to lower levels over time. First they can not be found in level 5s, then 4s, then 3s, and so on. Once they hit level 1s, there presence in space could slowly move back towards their stronghold in 0.0 Rats disappear from belts, complexes and the like, and eventually you only see them gate camping in 0.0 until they rebuild their strength and position.

Of course, that would probably mean they would only be found in 0.0 eventually.

Nerf Highsec?

Maybe a little extreme, but it's an interesting idea. Before you know it, the Devs would have to either make their space True Nullsec, or invent a new Pirate group, complete with new ships and the like to replace them with.

Better yet, the NPCs return to highsec to make ISK for their next nullsec invasion, and cry in local about being blobbed, while mining for their next battleship.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Jimmy Hawks
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2013-01-02 03:30:02 UTC
Truth is, that High-Sector activities are less exciting because CCP (and I believe to remember they mentioned this on various occasions) want people to LEAVE High-Sector and go out into the Low-, preferably even into Null- Sector where they band together in Alliances and shape their own Destiny and the one of their Alliances.

With this in mind, it would probably not be a good idea to make High-Sector more attaractive, because the more attractive and exciting High-Sector is, the fewer people want to leave it.

On the other hand we also must take into account that CCP needs Subscribers to keep EVE alive, and I am positive that -most- people nowadays prefer a PvE surrounding where they don't get ganked and spanked.
My experience with people I tried to convince to come to EVE refuse often with the reasoning that they don't want to deal with PvP. So... CCP (and I am sure they know this themselves) loses a big amount of potential Subs with a less attractive (or less safe) High-Sector...

So... High-Sector is (and probably always will) be a Problem child. CCP needs the Subs (which needs a pimped High-Sec) but they also want to encourage people to go into Low-/ and Null-Sector (which requires to make High-Sec less attractive to encourage people go to Low- / Null).

No matter what CCP does, it hurts the one, or the other way...

So... I honestly don't know if boosting High-Sec is the right way. Economically it probably is, and since CCP needs the Subs to keep EVE alive... It -might- be worth a thought, for the sake of the survival of EVE Online, to give in a little more and make High-Sector more attractive. The question is more: how far can they go with making High-Sector more attractive? I think we -all- agree that we don't want a dumbed down Space-WoW...

Generally I find Low- and Null-Sector should be MORE attractive and also MORE provitable. The safety you get in High-Sec must come to a price.
DSpite Culhach
#137 - 2013-01-02 06:40:37 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
OMGAWD,

As for making the current missions and anomalies more challenging, could try running them in Frigates with a few friends.



Brilliant, next you will suggest me make Bejeweled harder by playing with a black and white + blur NVIdia Shader filter so that we cant tell gem color OR proper shape. Instant challenge. For the record I used to play COD4 with a custom Color Curve in the Nvidia Panel filter because my vision sucks and COD4 is just a million shades of brown to me, so that gave me better contrast, I also used to play Rainbow 6 Vegas in thermal vision 100% or the time for exactly the same reason, when others wanted a challenge, they would go thermal too cause they knew I was much better at running thermal all the time and came hunting me.

In EVE try and remember that we are all paying $20 a month to play, and it's a reasonable assumption that if enough people are finding something a little boring, that we might have at least the ability to voice those concerns.


I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#138 - 2013-01-02 07:02:21 UTC
Came to the thread to find some ideas how to make EVE PvE actually fun.

Left with ideas to add more lame and boring PvE content to EVE.
Lledrith
Ex Caminus
#139 - 2013-01-02 07:04:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Lledrith
Kalanaja wrote:
I want NPCs launching drones! I want them smack talking in local at you! I want them trying to out pilot the player! I want the explosions also looking more real, rather then a pop and some sparks. Also, they should have limited cap, the ability to be drained, neuted and ecmed unlike they are now. And, please, please, make them more interesting by trying to take out your pod.
Also, what Katran said, randomize them.


so technically what you want is to pvp but with the win factor at your favor every time?

someones need to get out of his closet...
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2013-01-02 07:32:27 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
OMGAWD,

As for making the current missions and anomalies more challenging, could try running them in Frigates with a few friends.



Brilliant, next you will suggest me make Bejeweled harder by playing with a black and white + blur NVIdia Shader filter so that we cant tell gem color OR proper shape. Instant challenge. For the record I used to play COD4 with a custom Color Curve in the Nvidia Panel filter because my vision sucks and COD4 is just a million shades of brown to me, so that gave me better contrast, I also used to play Rainbow 6 Vegas in thermal vision 100% or the time for exactly the same reason, when others wanted a challenge, they would go thermal too cause they knew I was much better at running thermal all the time and came hunting me.

In EVE try and remember that we are all paying $20 a month to play, and it's a reasonable assumption that if enough people are finding something a little boring, that we might have at least the ability to voice those concerns.



Obviously you missed the last part of my reply :

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Also I do agree with the OP that the PvE aspect of this game should be and definitely needs to be expanded upon and updated, but to what extent is the main question.


But hey, nice rant though.


DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle