EVE General Discussion

So your specific ideas are?

Please explain to me how having a nullsec trade hub fixes the issues with manufacturing and refining in nullsec.

Thanks in advance.

My specific point is that it needn't be a strictly zero-sum game.

I beg your pardon, but if you've been following the various threads on these topics, it seems that quite few people think exactly that. If you're not one of them, then I apologise for jumping on you. (Flu + flu medication isn't a great combo for promoting concentration and insights into subtexts)

To clarify There are multiple aspects to this situation, they all need resolving seperately,fixing just one of them isn't going to solve anything, and rebalancing them is going to be delicate and difficult.

(1) Sov 0.0 simply does not and cannot have sufficient manufacturing capacity to supply itself with the current outpost mechanics. There simply aren't the available production lines. Thus, simply "nerfing hi-sec" won't solve the problem. Even if CCP deleted hi-sec tomorrow, sov industry still wouldn't be viable. It would just move to lo-sec or NPC 0.0. Player built outposts need a complete rebalance.

(2) Hi-sec is virtually "perfect"; there is only one constraint to manufacturing and industry in hi-sec and that is the requirement to purchase Zydrine, Megacyte and Mercoxit from 0.0 or W-space sources. As these minerals are the ones with the lowest physical volume, they're also by far the easiest to transport, so even here, hi-sec has the advantage. With the sole exception of high end minerals, hi-sec is currently either better than anywhere else or else unbeatable (assuming we don't advocate silliness like 110% refine rates) for manufacturing, R&D, Invention, trading and so on. Even if 0.0 was "good" for these activities, hi-sec is arguably too good at all of them.

(3) Productive activity in sov 0.0 operates with some intrinsic costs that mean it has to be "better" than hi-sec to be viable; the productive output of a 0.0 station has to be better than that of a hi-sec system by at least the cost of the sov bills in order for that production to be competitive. To make this clear: let's imagine that CCP make sov outposts have the same number of production lines as a good hi-sec station, and both can make, say, 100 battleships a month. If the sov bill for the 0.0 system to 750M ISK per month, then the cost of producing those battleships needs to be at least 7.5M ISK less in the sov outpost for its production to be competitive.

Whether this difference is best achieved by making hi-sec stations less efficient or sov outposts more efficient is a matter for the economists to decide. And in practice there are quite a few other 'hidden' costs to operating productive activities in 0.0; delays caused by hostile presence, increased losses from same, additional transport overhead due to the 1 station per system limit, the actuarial cost of the possibility of losing the station and the space, plus the (very significant) sunk costs of building the station in the first place and of establishing the sov structures.

So it's easy to imagine that after taking all these into account that our imaginary sov outpost would actually need a 15M or 20M ISK production cost per battleship or BPC run or invention job efficiency advantage to be viable in the long run.

Please bear in mind that the numbers I have used are purely for example purposes, and the actual percentages might be lower or higher. However my instinct is that the real number will be at least ~15%.

I was responding to the OP, sorry :(

Ahem, edit: As for your post.

You can't buff null enough to make it better than high without either breaking the game or nerfing high a bit first. As has been said many times.

Unless you want nullsec refining and manufacturing to just create minerals out of thin air, I guess.

I can see your point but what I am saying is that while they should be better than a POS well they cost more than 20 times as much Sov its self does confer other bonuses so I would be happy for them to have the best refine inately while a POS would have to chose that with the CPU and PU downside and they should definately have more slots than a POS can possibly have and a greater production speed I feel that covering the entire sov bill cost while sov provides area upgrades jammers ect ect it is too much. Form my point of view we need a basic POS as a base model one for lo-sec and hi with the right rep and then make the POS additions for below -0.0 better with regards to manufacturing and research so risk=reward and then make outposts better again, but as a mega takes 5 hours to manufacture and say a Amarr Factory Outpost Platform which has 9 slots so it would produce 1296 battleships a month and personally I think 9 slots is kind of rubbish personally about 30 sounds right at 20 bill a pop. So the ability to manufacture there would be great.

As to NPC facilities I personally believe the calculation for slots be they manufacturing or research should be the cost of a POS for that period of time divided by an average number of slots for a Manufacturing POS say 10 plus 10%

So that way while NPC users do not have the ongoing cost or risk of a POS they pay the same as it would be to use one for the manufacturing time plus 10%

And as I have said many times the max base refine in an NPC facility should be 30% so it is still possible to have a 100% refine if they are skilled up.

POS as in Tower I will generally call an outpost an outpost

You seem to think that it's all about making ISK. 0.0 already pretty good for making pure ISK, but that's not the point.

So i'm in 0.0 space for what exactly if it isn't for the money?.....Politics?, back room deals?, overall paranoia with little of it based on facts?....Perhaps always keeping local open and having access to security channels to see if there's enemy ship movement coming your way?


It has always been the money for me and for the three years i was there, i made the isk i needed to make, managed it well and it has grown to quite an impressive sum in high sec, so 0.0 space served it's point from my end of things.


Maybe for others it's always about the pvp and nothing else, even to the point of aliances starting fights with other aliances to keep each of their PVP divisions happy and occupied, and not so much about territorial conquest or gaining control of even more resources than they already have....Some have even claimed to go to war just because they're bored otherwise.

Gave the troll away with that. But better luck next time.